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Thread: "Ism's" and America

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVh75ylAUXY

    pass it on to all the liberals you know -- and to the conservatives as well.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Well, I'm not selling Utopia either, but I think it's worth pointing out that capitalism (itself an "-ism," to borrow from the link) and freedom aren't automaticallythe same thing. Hitler was all for capitalism...

    -ljp

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Legba wrote:
    Well, I'm not selling Utopia either, but I think it's worth pointing out that capitalism (itself an "-ism," to borrow from the link) and freedom aren't automaticallythe same thing. Hitler was all for capitalism...

    -ljp
    I completely disagree with this. You cannot have a free capitalist market without a free society.

    As for Hitler, he was the leader of an extreme left wing party.. National Socialism. The only "capitalism" he was interested in was for the production of war materials. You can bet it was tightly controlled.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Hitler left wing? Huh? The only thing "socialist" about National Socialism was the name. It wasn't a state-directed economy theway communism is. Rhine-Ruhr industrialists - very much capitalistic - fed the war machine and profited greatly by it.

    -ljp

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Now for some rather intesting numbers. The cumulative dollar value of all of the privately held property (real and otherwise) in the United States is roughly 1.6 times the entire output of all of the nations on earth, including the US (56 trillion dollars vs 35 trillion).

    During WWII, America produced over 275,000 war planes, 87,000 war ships, and 155,000 tanks. At its peak, we were producing a bomber every two minutes. At war's end, we had 101 aircraft carriers.

    After Rommel's defeat in North Africa, he was called back to Berlin. While there, he uttered these words; "Whenever the United States enters a theater of operations with its full industrial might brought to bear, there can be no hope for victory".

    During the Reagan years with our military build up and our spending the Soviets to the bargaining table, our military expenditures never exceeded 5.6% of our GDP. The Soviets frequently exceeded 25-27% of their GDP and at times exceeded 30%.

    There was and is no way the former USSR could match the US in economic and military might.

    Yep, it's good to be an American.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  6. #6
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Legba wrote:
    Hitler left wing? Huh? The only thing "socialist" about National Socialism was the name. It wasn't a state-directed economy theway communism is. Rhine-Ruhr industrialists - very much capitalistic - fed the war machine and profited greatly by it.

    -ljp
    Clearly we differ and will have to admit to agreeing to disagree.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    We plainly see this differently, and that's fine - as I said, I'm not selling anything. It's worth noting that the value of domestic/consumer goods in Nazi Germany exceeded the value of military production until 1943. Hardly a result that "the state knows best" socialism would produce in wartime. I'm still firmly convinced that tyrrany can flourish under any economic system.

    -ljp

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    National Socialism (aka Fascism) was developed by astaunch leftist and former communist, Benito Mussolini. He and his ilk decided that the reason communist revolutions were flawed was the "abolish the state" plank of communism, because blue-collar workers tend to love their homelands. So they cooked up a type of socialism which glorifies the Homeland instead of trying to create a worldwide workers' paradise. Thus the name "National Socialism". Nazi Germany took the nationalism to the extreme, even making up a sort of Nazi pseudo-religion to worship the State. But Germany was very much socialist, in the sense that corporatism is socialist. That is, the Statedid not abolish private property outright, but it did assume central control over the economy and directed production of companies from on high.

    That is not the classic Austrian defintion of free-market capitalism. Years of leftist propaganda have convinced many Americans that fascism is also capitalism, but it's not true. It is true that America has been becoming more corporatist over the years since FDR centralized so much power in the fed gov, and this mix of corporatism and capitalism muddies the waters of any discussion.

    I agree with Legba that tyranny can exist with any form of economy, but there are different kinds of tyranny. Leftism focuses on controlling the fruits of your labor (ie taking them away from you) while rightism focuses on controlling your personal liberty (ie taking away your privacy, enforcing your morality, freedom of travel, etc.). Rightism can coexist with limited capitalism, but only to a certain point. Both glorify the supremacy of the State over the individual.

    Fascinating topic, though.

  9. #9
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    National Socialism (aka Fascism) was developed by astaunch leftist and former communist, Benito Mussolini. He and his ilk decided that the reason communist revolutions were flawed was the "abolish the state" plank of communism, because blue-collar workers tend to love their homelands. So they cooked up a type of socialism which glorifies the Homeland instead of trying to create a worldwide workers' paradise. Thus the name "National Socialism". Nazi Germany took the nationalism to the extreme, even making up a sort of Nazi pseudo-religion to worship the State. But Germany was very much socialist, in the sense that corporatism is socialist. That is, the Statedid not abolish private property outright, but it did assume central control over the economy and directed production of companies from on high.

    That is not the classic Austrian defintion of free-market capitalism. Years of leftist propaganda have convinced many Americans that fascism is also capitalism, but it's not true. It is true that America has been becoming more corporatist over the years since FDR centralized so much power in the fed gov, and this mix of corporatism and capitalism muddies the waters of any discussion.

    I agree with Legba that tyranny can exist with any form of economy, but there are different kinds of tyranny. Leftism focuses on controlling the fruits of your labor (ie taking them away from you) while rightism focuses on controlling your personal liberty (ie taking away your privacy, enforcing your morality, freedom of travel, etc.). Rightism can coexist with limited capitalism, but only to a certain point. Both glorify the supremacy of the State over the individual.

    Fascinating topic, though.
    Nicely thought out and stated. Well done.

    Hitler needed the output of his industrialists and did not have the time or inclination to move their operations under the Nazi umbrella completely. So he fostered and encouraged Krupp, Siemens, Daimler, Benz, and a host of others to produce his war machine and in turn reap the profits. He could deal with them later when the world was his.

    I also believe that a tyranical government can rise up under any system. The one thing we must never forget is that governments, by their very nature, are inherently evil. They only know how to do one thing and that is to grow. And left unchecked and to their own devices, they will eventually swallow up the governed. The only thing that keeps them in check is fear of those they are charged to serve. Governments which govern in fear of the people, govern best.

    The natural and instinctual economic system is that which is based upon property ownership and aquisition of material things. In other words a free market and capitalism. The foundation is that of coveting which is a normal human instinct.

    I'm going to end here because this could go on for quite a bit and it is most definitely off topic for which I apologize.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Well I just got one thing to say (I just got up so I don't want to fail at the intriguing topic that's come up);

    Gloria reipublicae (ya I know it's missing the macrons, but cut me some slack here).

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Any system that makes the individual's rights (substantive rights) subordinate to government, corporate or both of their rights, will fail. Governments and corporations are fictions, human beings are not. Without human beings, governments and corporations don't exist.

    Human beings are very good at destroying their own creations. It's called war!!!

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