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Thread: OC'ing at a postal location in a minute mart

  1. #1
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    I OC'd into a gas station the other day and it happened to also be a post office/postal location. The post office is probably leasing the space from a private company so it wouldn't be considered a federal building.. or would it?

    The day I bought gas I didn't go into the postal area, but today I need to go mail a package. Should I ge OK OC'ing?



  2. #2
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    I would guess as long as you didn't enter the post office proper you would be okay.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I would guess as long as you didn't enter the post office proper you would be okay.
    They aren't really separated, just different parts of the same counter. And today I need to use the postal service. Can I expect to see a No Guns sign if it is considered federal property?


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    The no guns on federal property, I don't believe, cover postal property. There is a seperate federal code that prohibits firearms on postal property. It is covered under Title 39 Section 232.1. I would assume that if it is leased by the postal service then it would be considered postal propert because they are in direct control of the property.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  5. #5
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    I looked very carefully and didn't see 232.1 posted anywhere so either they're slacking or post office/minit marts aren't postal property.

    §232.1Conduct on postal property. (a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.


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    Well if they didn't post it them they can't enforce it by federal code.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  7. #7
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    Is it perhaps just a contract agency and not an actual official branch of the post office?

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    nathan wrote:
    I looked very carefully and didn't see 232.1 posted anywhere so either they're slacking or post office/minit marts aren't postal property.
    I left my gun in the car just in case if anyone was wondering.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    PO carry is legal imho, but doing open carry in the PO is volunteering to be a test case. Best have deep pockets.



    Post office is not Federal.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    PO carry is legal imho, but doing open carry in the PO is volunteering to be a test case. Best have deep pockets.



    Post office is not Federal.
    So the code I referenced above is invalid, is that what you are saying Dave?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    Post office is not Federal.
    Try telling that to one of their Postal Inspecters.

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    USC Title 18

    § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous
    weapons in Federal facilities
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever
    knowingly possesses or causes to be present
    a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal
    facility (other than a Federal court facility),
    or attempts to do so, shall be fined under
    this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or
    both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or
    other dangerous weapon be used in the commission
    of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes
    to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon
    in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall
    be fined under this title or imprisoned not more
    than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course
    of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the
    course of an attack on a Federal facility involving
    the use of a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an
    act, shall be punished as provided in sections
    1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties
    by an officer, agent, or employee of the United
    States, a State, or a political subdivision
    thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in
    or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation,
    or prosecution of any violation of
    law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon by a Federal official or a member
    of the Armed Forces if such possession is
    authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other
    dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident
    to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    (e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever
    knowingly possesses or causes to be present
    a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts
    to do so, shall be fined under this title,
    imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct
    which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection
    (d).
    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of
    a court of the United States to punish for contempt
    or to promulgate rules or orders regulating,
    restricting, or prohibiting the possession
    of weapons within any building housing such
    court or any of its proceedings, or upon any
    grounds appurtenant to such building.
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term ‘‘Federal facility’’ means a
    building or part thereof owned or leased by the
    Federal Government, where Federal employees
    are regularly present for the purpose of performing
    their official duties.
    (2) The term ‘‘dangerous weapon’’ means a
    weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance,
    animate or inanimate, that is used for,
    or is readily capable of, causing death or serious
    bodily injury, except that such term does
    not include a pocket knife with a blade of less
    than 21⁄2 inches in length.
    (3) The term ‘‘Federal court facility’’ means
    the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness
    rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference
    rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices
    of the court clerks, the United States attorney,
    and the United States marshal, probation
    and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of
    any court of the United States.
    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a)
    and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each
    public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice
    of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously
    at each public entrance to each Federal
    court facility, and no person shall be convicted
    of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with re§
    931 TITLE 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE Page 232
    spect to a Federal facility if such notice is not
    so posted at such facility, unless such person
    had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the
    case may be.
    (Added Pub. L. 100–690, title VI, § 6215(a), Nov. 18,
    1988, 102 Stat. 4361; amended Pub. L. 101–647, title
    XXII, § 2205(a), Nov. 29, 1990, 104 Stat. 4857; Pub.
    L. 103–322, title VI, § 60014, Sept. 13, 1994, 108
    Stat. 1973; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, § 603(t), (u),
    Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3506; Pub. L. 107–56, title
    VIII, § 811(b), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 381.)
    AMENDMENTS
    2001—Subsec. (c). Pub. L. 107–56 struck out ‘‘or attempts
    to kill’’ after ‘‘A person who kills’’, inserted ‘‘or
    attempts or conspires to do such an act,’’ before ‘‘shall
    be punished’’, and substituted ‘‘1113, and 1117’’ for ‘‘and
    1113’’.
    1996—Subsec. (e)(2). Pub. L. 104–294, § 603(t), substituted
    ‘‘subsection (d)’’ for ‘‘subsection (c)’’.
    Subsec. (g). Pub. L. 104–294, § 603(u)(1), redesignated
    subsec. (g), related to posting notice in Federal facilities,
    as (h).
    Subsec. (h). Pub. L. 104–294, § 603(u)(2), substituted
    ‘‘(e)’’ for ‘‘(d)’’ wherever appearing.
    Pub. L. 104–294, § 603(u)(1), redesignated subsec. (g), related
    to posting notice in Federal facilities, as (h).
    1994—Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103–322, § 60014(2), substituted
    ‘‘(d)’’ for ‘‘(c)’’.
    Subsecs. (c) to (g). Pub. L. 103–322, § 60014(1), (3), added
    subsec. (c) and redesignated former subsecs. (c) to (f) as
    (d) to (g), respectively.
    1990—Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 101–647, § 2205(a)(1), inserted
    ‘‘(other than a Federal court facility)’’ after ‘‘Federal
    facility’’.
    Subsecs. (d), (e). Pub. L. 101–647, § 2205(a)(2), (3), added
    subsec. (d) and redesignated former subsec. (d) as (e).
    Former subsec. (e) redesignated (f).
    Subsec. (f). Pub. L. 101–647, § 2205(a)(2), redesignated
    subsec. (e) as (f). Former subsec. (f) redesignated (g).
    Subsec. (f)(3). Pub. L. 101–647, § 2205(a)(4), added par.
    (3).
    Subsec. (g). Pub. L. 101–647, § 2205(a)(5), inserted ‘‘and
    notice of subsection (d) shall be posted conspicuously
    at each public entrance to each Federal court facility,’’
    after ‘‘each Federal facility,’’, ‘‘or (d)’’ before ‘‘with respect
    to’’, and ‘‘or (d), as the case may be’’ before the
    period.
    Pub. L. 101–647, § 2205(a)(2), redesignated subsec. (f) as
    (g).
    EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1990 AMENDMENT
    Section 2205(b) of Pub. L. 101–647 provided that: ‘‘The
    amendments made by subsection (a) [amending this
    section] shall apply to conduct engaged in after the
    date of the enactment of this Act [Nov. 29, 1990].’’

  13. #13
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    Like I said before Postal Property is covered under Title 39 section 232.1.

    TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

    CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

    PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

    Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.


    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
    carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
    openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
    official purposes.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    Like I said before Postal Property is covered under Title 39 section 232.1.

    TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

    CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

    PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

    Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.


    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
    carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
    openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
    official purposes.
    What exactly is "official purposes"?

    (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
    regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
    control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
    imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both.

  15. #15
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If the clerks were efficient and polite, chances are it is not a real Post Office, just a contract location. If they were rude, closed the window in front of you to take a brake, and looked at you like you had dog doo-doo in your hair, you were in the real thing.

    I wouldn't worry unless you see a sign. No sign, no prohibition. FWIW, all the real Post Offices around here have the big "Ghostbuster" sign in the door or up front where you can see it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    There was only one clerk and she was very nice.


    USC Title 18 §930 seems to say that it isn't illegal to carry a firearm in a federal building (except a court house). Why is it 'common knowledge' that federal buildings are off limits to legal firearms?



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    amlevin wrote:
    If the clerks were efficient and polite, chances are it is not a real Post Office, just a contract location. If they were rude, closed the window in front of you to take a brake, and looked at you like you had dog doo-doo in your hair, you were in the real thing.

    I wouldn't worry unless you see a sign. No sign, no prohibition. FWIW, all the real Post Offices around here have the big "Ghostbuster" sign in the door or up front where you can see it.
    Not true on the latter...

    Edmonds Post Office doesn't have any signage; I looked very hard at all the entrances prior to entry. Only after I was in line for 10 minutes did I see the small sign on the back wall that said firearms weren't allowed.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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    amlevin,

    Sorry your local post offices are filled with hostile employees; our down here in Tacoma seem quite friendly and ready to help.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    Only after I was in line for 10 minutes did I see the small sign on the back wall that said firearms weren't allowed.
    If it is the stock sign then the code citation was of 18 USC 930 allowing gun carry for lawful purposes.

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    joeroket wrote:
    The no guns on federal property, I don't believe, cover postal property. There is a seperate federal code that prohibits firearms on postal property. It is covered under Title 39 Section 232.1. I would assume that if it is leased by the postal service then it would be considered postal propert because they are in direct control of the property.
    This version of USC Title 39, http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title39/title39.html, doesn't seem to have a 'Section 232,' rather the highest Section number is 208 addressing "Reservation of powers." And it seems that Title 39 may address internal policy and procedures rather than external restrictions.

    ETA: Ah ha! The difference is between The United States Code (USC) and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Your mention is of http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...39cfr232.1.htm

    That seems an odd repository, akamaitech, considering its history as a spam-haus. I had to disable security features to even see it's output.


    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    The no guns on federal property, I don't believe, cover postal property. There is a seperate federal code that prohibits firearms on postal property. It is covered under Title 39 Section 232.1. I would assume that if it is leased by the postal service then it would be considered postal propert because they are in direct control of the property.
    This version of USC Title 39, http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title39/title39.html, doesn't seem to have a 'Section 232,' rather the highest Section number is 208 addressing "Reservation of powers." And it seems that Title 39 may address internal policy and procedures rather than external restrictions.

    ETA: Ah ha! The difference is between The United States Code (USC) and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Your mention is of http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...39cfr232.1.htm

    That seems an odd repository, akamaitech, considering its history as a spam-haus. I had to disable security features to even see it's output.


    Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

    First off I never claimed it was USC, I simply said it was a federal code, which the CFR certainly is. Secondly I never supplied any link or mentioned akamaitech. You are the one who came up with that.

    Maybe you should look at this link if you don't think that code really exists.

    http://tinyurl.com/2g64wn

    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states_code
    The Code (USC) generally contains only those Acts of Congress known as public laws (although the notes sometimes contain related Executive Orders and other presidential documents). The Code does not contain statutes known as private laws. It also does not contain statutes that are not considered permanent (such as appropriations); nor does it contain regulations adopted by executive agencies through the rulemaking process set out in the Administrative Procedure Act. These regulations are published chronologically in the Federal Register and are then compiled by topic or subject matter in the Code of Federal Regulations (C.F.R.), which constitutes an additional important source of federal law.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of...al_regulations
    Administrative law exists because the United States Congress often grants broad authority to executive branch agencies to interpret the statutes in the United States Code (and in uncodified statutes) which the agencies are entrusted with enforcing. Congress may be too busy or congested to micromanage the jurisdiction of those agencies by writing statutes that cover every possible detail, or Congress may determine that the technical specialists at the agency are best equipped to develop detailed applications of statutes to particular fact patterns as they arise. Under the Administrative Procedure Act, the agencies are permitted to promulgate detailed rules and regulations through a public "rulemaking" process where the public is allowed to comment, known as public information. After a period of time, the rules and regulations are usually published in the Federal Register.







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    Has anyone actually called the senior inspector for Seattle and asked for their input?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    joeroket wrote:
    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    PO carry is legal imho, but doing open carry in the PO is volunteering to be a test case. Best have deep pockets.



    Post office is not Federal.
    So the code I referenced above is invalid, is that what you are saying Dave?
    No, I'm saying that the Postal Service is a private company... that it is run via a private/public partnership.

    They key is July 1 1971, when the Postal Reorganization Act took effect and the new Postal Service began operations. The Postal Service was de-Federalized (it became a private organization). As a result, postal workers are not Federal Employees:

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/5/2105.html
    "TITLE 5 > PART III > Subpart A > CHAPTER 21 > § 2105

    § 2105. Employee

    (e) Except as otherwise provided by law, an employee of the United States Postal Service or of the Postal Rate Commission is deemed not an employee for purposes of this title."

    Postal workers, while eligable for some of the samebenefits as Federal employees, are not in fact Federal employees (some sworn investigative officers non-withstanding). Their building is not actually a bonafied Federal Facility.

    And, when the PO cites their own regulation (39CFR232.1(I).), as barring weapons except for official purposes, they are in fact implicitly granting permission to carry.

    A) It is legal to walk into a PO with a AR15 packaged to ship --because you have an allowable official reason to be carrying it

    B) It is legal to walk into a PO with an AR15 packaged to ship AND have a Glock 19 strapped to your hip (as long as you are legally carrying per state law) -- because you have an allowable official reason to be there.

    C) It is legal to walk into a post office to mail a letter AND have a Glock 19 strapped to your hip (as long as you are legally carrying per state law) --because you have an allowable official reason to be there.

    As always, ymmv. There's no case law on this afaik.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    ijusam wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    Like I said before Postal Property is covered under Title 39 section 232.1.

    TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

    CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

    PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

    Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.


    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
    carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
    openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
    official purposes.
    What exactly is "official purposes"?

    (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
    regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
    control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
    imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both.
    That would be someone like a Postal Inspector, who is a Federal LEO, carrying on Postal Property, or Police who are carrying on duty.

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