OC'ing at a postal location in a minute mart

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Doug Huffman wrote:

joeroket wrote:

The no guns on federal property, I don't believe, cover postal property. There is a seperate federal code that prohibits firearms on postal property. It is covered under Title 39 Section 232.1. I would assume that if it is leased by the postal service then it would be considered postal propert because they are in direct control of the property.

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This version of USC Title 39, http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title39/title39.html, doesn't seem to have a 'Section 232,' rather the highest Section number is 208 addressing "Reservation of powers." And it seems that Title 39 may address internal policy and procedures rather than external restrictions.

ETA: Ah ha! The difference is between The United States Code (USC) and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Your mention is of http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/julqtr/39cfr232.1.htm

That seems an odd repository, akamaitech, considering its history as a spam-haus. I had to disable security features to even see it's output.

Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

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First off I never claimed it was USC, I simply said it was a federal code, which the CFR certainly is. Secondly I never supplied any link or mentioned akamaitech. You are the one who came up with that.

Maybe you should look at this link if you don't think that code really exists.

http://tinyurl.com/2g64wn

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states_code
The Code (USC) generally contains only those Acts of Congress known as public laws (although the notes sometimes contain related Executive Orders and other presidential documents). The Code does not contain statutes known as private laws. It also does not contain statutes that are not considered permanent (such as appropriations); nor does it contain regulations adopted by executive agencies through the rulemaking process set out in the Administrative Procedure Act. These regulations are published chronologically in the Federal Register and are then compiled by topic or subject matter in the Code of Federal Regulations (C.F.R.), which constitutes an additional important source of federal law.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_federal_regulations
Administrative law exists because the United States Congress often grants broad authority to executive branch agencies to interpret the statutes in the United States Code (and in uncodified statutes) which the agencies are entrusted with enforcing. Congress may be too busy or congested to micromanage the jurisdiction of those agencies by writing statutes that cover every possible detail, or Congress may determine that the technical specialists at the agency are best equipped to develop detailed applications of statutes to particular fact patterns as they arise. Under the Administrative Procedure Act, the agencies are permitted to promulgate detailed rules and regulations through a public "rulemaking" process where the public is allowed to comment, known as public information. After a period of time, the rules and regulations are usually published in the Federal Register.

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Has anyone actually called the senior inspector for Seattle and asked for their input?

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joeroket wrote:

Dave_pro2a wrote:

PO carry is legal imho, but doing open carry in the PO is volunteering to be a test case. Best have deep pockets.



Post office is not Federal.

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So the code I referenced above is invalid, is that what you are saying Dave?

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No, I'm saying that the Postal Service is a private company... that it is run via a private/public partnership.

They key is July 1 1971, when the Postal Reorganization Act took effect and the new Postal Service began operations. The Postal Service was de-Federalized (it became a private organization). As a result, postal workers are not Federal Employees:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/5/2105.html
"TITLE 5 > PART III > Subpart A > CHAPTER 21 > § 2105

§ 2105. Employee

(e) Except as otherwise provided by law, an employee of the United States Postal Service or of the Postal Rate Commission is deemed not an employee for purposes of this title."

Postal workers, while eligable for some of the samebenefits as Federal employees, are not in fact Federal employees (some sworn investigative officers non-withstanding). Their building is not actually a bonafied Federal Facility.

And, when the PO cites their own regulation (39CFR232.1(I).), as barring weapons except for official purposes, they are in fact implicitly granting permission to carry.

A) It is legal to walk into a PO with a AR15 packaged to ship --because you have an allowable official reason to be carrying it

B) It is legal to walk into a PO with an AR15 packaged to ship AND have a Glock 19 strapped to your hip (as long as you are legally carrying per state law) -- because you have an allowable official reason to be there.

C) It is legal to walk into a post office to mail a letter AND have a Glock 19 strapped to your hip (as long as you are legally carrying per state law) --because you have an allowable official reason to be there.

As always, ymmv. There's no case law on this afaik.

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ijusam wrote:

joeroket wrote:

Like I said before Postal Property is covered under Title 39 section 232.1.

TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.


(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

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What exactly is "official purposes"?

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both.

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That would be someone like a Postal Inspector, who is a Federal LEO, carrying on Postal Property, or Police who are carrying on duty.

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Decoligny wrote:

ijusam wrote:

joeroket wrote:

Like I said before Postal Property is covered under Title 39 section 232.1.

TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.


(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
official purposes.

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What exactly is "official purposes"?

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both.

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That would be someone like a Postal Inspector, who is a Federal LEO, carrying on Postal Property, or Police who are carrying on duty.

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Or an average citizen who wants to ship an AR15.

Or an average citizen who wants to mail a letter AND who is lawfully carrying a pistol (either CCW or open carry).

Just because it says "official purposes," does not mean that only cops can carry. It means ANY person who has an official reason to be on the property, AND who can legally carry a firearm under Federal and/or State law. imho

You do realize that anyone can ship long arms through the USPS.

And a resident of WA can ship a pistol to another resident of WA using a contract carrier. He can also ship it to himself in a different state.

And a FFL holder (who is NOT a cop, Postal Inspector, FBI guy, or any other alphabet agent) can ship pistols. rifles, machine guns, etc through the USPS.

A C&R holder can also ship certian eligablepistols via USPS I believe.

But what the heck, keep thinking that cops are speical and are the only ones who deserve to injoy our rights.

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Hmmmm, I guess the term "going postal!" would be interesting at this point.

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Doug Huffman wrote:

That seems an odd repository, akamaitech, considering its history as a spam-haus. I had to disable security features to even see it's output.

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Actually, Akamai is one of the largest web hosts in the world. According to their website they deliver between ten and twenty percent of ALL internet traffic, at speeds that reach higher than 650 GIGabits of traffic.

NBA, Adobe, Clear Channel, Fox, Myspace, Verizon, and Microsoft all host significant amounts of data with Akamai.

Just trying to clear the good name of a company that is actually well respected in the networking community... (I have never worked with/for them...fwiw)