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Thread: Drawing on an unarmed person? Shooting an unarmed person?

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    I sometimes carry concealed. (Never open, but I'm glad so many of you guys do! I have a dream: that one day, soccer moms will not call the police at the mere site of a polite person carrying the means to defend themselves and fellow citizens.)

    I am wondering what your thoughts are on shooting an unarmed threat?

    Scenario 1: You are in the process ofreceiving a beat-down by one or more unarmed thugs, and you manage to draw your weapon and fire at one or more of them.

    Scenario 2: Threats have been made of physical violence ("This is our turf, we gonna jack you up!" or some other stereotypical line,followed by an advance towards you). Can you draw? This has the great potential of scaring them off, avoiding physical injury of any parties. If this is OK, then what if they are NOT scared off, and continue to advance?

    The above two scenarios are where I see myself most likely to use a gun. I do not envision myself drawing or firing to stop a retail robbery, or in a situation where I or someone else is already at gunpoint.I personally would hope to comply and avoid a gunfight (which is a risk, because they could shoot after they get compliance--but it's a risk that I personally would probably take). (Of course if someone is chasing me or someone else with an axe or a knife, then the possiblity of a gunfight becomes less worrisome, and you can probably drop the crook without fear of one.) I thinkone of the best aspects of a gun is its ability todrastically tip the scales of force in your favor, and avoid personal injury altogether.What do you think ofthe above two scenarios from a wisdomperspective? How about legal (unofficially, as always)?

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    1. A physical beating can easily become a lethal encounter. Draw and fire.

    2. All law enforcement personnel take the threat of physical violence seriously and so should you. Draw and fire. If there is enough distance between you and the thugs in question, draw and aim. Then fire.

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    The elements of common law self-defense are four; 1) Be innocent of instigation. 2) Be in reasonable fear of harm. 3) Attempt to withdraw. 4) Use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil.

    Your State's statute law may differ. Your States case law may address superior numbers as an element of the 'reasonable fear of harm' element of self-defense, frequently cast in terms of means-motive-opportunity.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    The elements of common law self-defense are four; 1) Be innocent of instigation. 2) Be in reasonable fear of harm. 3) Attempt to withdraw. 4) Use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil.

    Your State's statute law may differ. Your States case law may address superior numbers as an element of the 'reasonable fear of harm' element of self-defense, frequently cast in terms of means-motive-opportunity.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******
    Item #3 does not hold true in all states and certainly not here in Virginia. We have no "duty to retreat" requirements here.

    However, the "prudent man" test would be furthered and would serve you if you did attempt to leave the immediate area in order to avoid harm to yourself or your antagonists (it wears well in court). Still you would have to be the judge when the threat is imminent and retreating just may not be an option.



    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Me wrote:
    Scenario 1: You are in the process ofreceiving a beat-down by one or more unarmed thugs, and you manage to draw your weapon and fire at one or more of them.

    Scenario 2: Threats have been made of physical violence ("This is our turf, we gonna jack you up!" or some other stereotypical line,followed by an advance towards you). Can you draw? This has the great potential of scaring them off, avoiding physical injury of any parties. If this is OK, then what if they are NOT scared off, and continue to advance?

    on the first scenario. If its only one thug than just take the ass whoopin or give one yourself. If a weapon is shown than you draw. A fight is just a fight. You dont run and get your gun and come back into the bar to shoot if a fights brake out in there do you? Now if there are more than four im going to shoot. I figure with my size (6'3 230) i can handle three regular size guys. The way i see it, If you flash your gun there will be a struggle. You can shoot one quick but if he is close enough to jump on you than the other ones can take your gun and your life.

    Scenario 2: You should never draw to scare. If you are in an area that....... seems to be black or low income than why are you walking? chances are if the area is that rough than they have guns to or have homeboys who have guns so the moment you draw and pause wait to see what they do is the moment you offer your life to others. If they are advancing than empty the magazine. reload and look for who ever else wants some.

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    The elements of common law self-defense are four; 1) Be innocent of instigation. 2) Be in reasonable fear of harm. 3) Attempt to withdraw. 4) Use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil.

    Your State's statute law may differ. Your States case law may address superior numbers as an element of the 'reasonable fear of harm' element of self-defense, frequently cast in terms of means-motive-opportunity.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******
    Item #3 does not hold true in all states and certainly not here in Virginia. We have no "duty to retreat" requirements here. However, the "prudent man" test would be furthered and would serve you if you did attempt to leave the immediate area in order to avoid harm to yourself or your antagonists (it wears well in court). Still you would have to be the judge when the threat is imminent and retreating just may not be an option.
    I'm sure that there are quibbles in VA's law implementing the 'castle doctrine.'

    Common law, statute law and case law are different, as are the states' law. Words mean things - but only if you read, contra 'look at', the words.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Just don't forget about Harold Fisher

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_n16488917


    Judged by 12 didn't work well for him even when it involved a homeless mental patient with a history and two dogs.

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    DeltaII5 wrote:
    Just don't forget about Harold Fisher

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_n16488917


    Judged by 12 didn't work well for him even when it involved a homeless mental patient with a history and two dogs.
    "As a result of the ruling, Fish had the burden of proving his innocence by a lower standard preponderance of evidence - as required under self-defense statutes established by the Legislature in 1997, Rozema said."

    Wait...WHAT??? I don't even know where to go with this.

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    Me wrote:
    DeltaII5 wrote:
    Just don't forget about Harold Fisher

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_n16488917


    Judged by 12 didn't work well for him even when it involved a homeless mental patient with a history and two dogs.
    "As a result of the ruling, Fish had the burden of proving his innocence by a lower standard preponderance of evidence - as required under self-defense statutes established by the Legislature in 1997, Rozema said."

    Wait...WHAT??? I don't even know where to go with this.
    Ya, it was pretty assed up scenario, but they fixed the law after his case. It didn't help that he got an anti-gun judge. Last I heard he had appealed again.

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    Just read the Fish article,
    According to the document, Fish told Feagan, the original investigator, that Kuenzli was yelling, Don't shoot. Don't shoot, with his bare hands out in front of him after the warning shot was fired at the dogs.
    ...Probably not a good idea on Fish's part. This is why I would not given any, ANY statement after a shooting without a lawyer present.

    Scenario 1: If you feel your life is in danger, or to avoid great bodily harm, kill the bastards.

    Scenario 2: Tough one.. I've been thinking about this lately as well. I suppose I would draw while backing up (unless you are surrounded), order them/him to 'stop or I'll shoot,' then follow through with your promise.

    Scenario 3:A retail store is being robbed at gunpoint. The BG does not know of your presence. It is just you, the clerk and BG in the store. What do you do?

    A) Shoot the BG to preserve the life of the clerk

    B) Attempt a LTL shot to the leg, then act as necessary

    C) Order the BG to 'lower your weapon or I'll shoot,' then follow through with your promise

    D) Call the police on your cell, attempt to get a description of BG and vehicle without being seen and sit tight

    E) Other...?


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    It seems pretty easy to run through these scenarios and say what you would or would not do but at home on your computer fear and adrenalin are not factors. Your or my actual reaction will not be known until a situation calling for some sort of action occurs. Then, as you, I just hope the one I make will be the right one. All my weapon does is provide me with options.

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    irfner wrote:
    Your or my actual reaction will not be known until a situation calling for some sort of action occurs. Then, as you, I just hope the one I make will be the right one. All my weapon does is provide me with options.
    I already know what my reaction will be in the two scenarios Me offered.

    I already know what my strategy will be with unarmed persons.

    HPCSD is good that way....

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    Me wrote:
    SNIP What do you think ofthe above two scenarios from a wisdomperspective? How about legal (unofficially, as always)?
    Ahhh.Wise questions.

    Time to start reading, Grasshopper.

    A good first book might be, In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. Available at some gun stores and on-line. A good follow up might be his video, Judicious Use of Deadly Force. Perhaps "Lethal" is the word used. He goes into more detail and explanation in the video. He addressesscenarios similar to yours in the video.

    Key pieces of information to seek out include:

    • "immediate and otherwise unavoidablethreat of grave bodily injury or death to the innocent."
    • "Ability" (of the attacker)
    • "Opportunity" (of the attacker)
    • "Jeopardy" (to the innocent), sometimes called "Intent" (of the attacker)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I have a problem with the "take an ass-kicking, evaluate it, then react" method of dealing with the situation. It only takes one lucky shot to put you down for two or three seconds. You're relying on the "good character" of the instigator; that he will exercise restraint and not proceed to crush your freaking skull against the floor.

    ("Leaving the bar to go get your gun" is not a fair comparison. If you've left the bar, you are no longer in the process of taking a beating. It's over. It's time to call the cops.)

    Good old-fashioned fisticuffs are just that: old-fashioned. Expecting that your opponent is going to follow some gentlemanly rule of fistfighting is just foolish. If you are in the process of receiving a "beat-down" (presumably without provocation) from some thug you'd best take it seriously.

    When facing an approaching horde, don't pull unless you're prepared to follow through. The horde is almost guaranteed to scatter, but there is no way to predict what will follow after that. Any of them that are armed can very well draw and fire at you.



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    HankT wrote:
    If those are the two situations that you feel are most likelyones foryour possible use of deadly force,lifewill be pleasingly uncomplicated for you. Especially if you consider avoiding such situations altogether.
    Well I wouldn't necessarily only be likely to do so only in those exact scenarios, but in scenarios where the same principle applies.That principle being that thegun will give me a decisive advantage of sorts (whether it's to scare/shoot off thugs wielding fists or feet, or to mow down the person chasing me with a knife/axe/bat). I am more likely to use the gun when I can decisively "win" than in situations where there is potentialthat I can start aTWO-way bloodbath (although if the thug has already started shedding blood, then your two-way bloodbath becomes unavoidable and you'd better get to business). Although in this particular thread, I guess I am particularly interested in the unarmed scenario. And thosescenarios are not always avoidable.

    So, if someone is robbing a convenience store, I do not have a decisive enough advantageto take on the risk of trying to stop it with my own gun. This is speaking for myself only, obviously, and how I would choose to use my own gun. If a gun is already pointed at someone, I would likely hope to ride it out (hand over the wallet, or step back while the clerk hands over the money). (Of course, if they are alreadyshooting up the place, that's a different story, and I have an obligation to enter the battle).

    I envision walking somewhere after dark, and maybe starting to get harrassed by a group of people (so more than one, this time). Maybe I get shoved once or twice, and there are physical threats. Say I fear furtherattack, so I step back and draw my gun, in an attempt to keep them away from me. So far, no injuries. Maybe they get scared off. Maybe they don't. Now they advance towards me. So these unarmed people not only have their hands and their feet, but now also potentially my own gun. But only because I drew the gun in the first place. Ack!

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    3/325 wrote:
    When facing an approaching horde, don't pull unless you're prepared to follow through. The horde is almost guaranteed to scatter
    Which raises another question... If you draw, and they continue their aggresive advance, do you fire a 'warning shot' to attempt to scare/deter them even more?

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    While sitting in front of my computer is a completely different scenario...

    1. If i thought that i was going to be beaten to death/nearly to death, boom. What's the prosecutor going to do, show up at your hospital room and tell you that you're going to be charged with manslaughter after you can eat and breathe without the assistance of tubes?

    2. while i'd try not to be in this situation in the first place, cars break down, friends get stranded in the damndest places, and sometimes you just gotta "go" no matter if it's at a gas station with iron bars on the windows and the clerk has a turnstyle and sits behind 3" of bulletproof glass. my response would to get the hell out of there like my ass was on fire. However if weapons come out, all bets are off.

    No matter what, after the smoke clears about the only words out of my mouth are going to be "I'm pretty upset right now, I just want to talk to my lawyer."

    Remember when talking to a cop you should be telling yourself in your head, over and over, "Shut the F**K up, self!!!!"

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    The elements of common law self-defense are four; 1) Be innocent of instigation. 2) Be in reasonable fear of harm. 3) Attempt to withdraw. 4) Use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil.

    Your State's statute law may differ. Your States case law may address superior numbers as an element of the 'reasonable fear of harm' element of self-defense, frequently cast in terms of means-motive-opportunity.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******
    Great post Doug, and something we should all be aware of.

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    kmcdowel wrote:
    3/325 wrote:
    When facing an approaching horde, don't pull unless you're prepared to follow through. The horde is almost guaranteed to scatter
    Which raises another question... If you draw, and they continue their aggresive advance, do you fire a 'warning shot' to attempt to scare/deter them even more?
    warning shot are only wasted bullets. i know the ones i shoot are to expensive to waste them on dirt or air.

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    HankT wrote:
    .......I already know what my strategy will be with unarmed persons........
    If they ain't got no arms, and they ain't carrying no gun, then they ain't no threat.

    Ain't that right HankT?



    Tarzan

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    kmcdowel wrote:
    Which raises another question... If you draw, and they continue their aggresive advance, do you fire a 'warning shot' to attempt to scare/deter them even more?
    where's that bullet going to go? "Be sure of your target and what's beyond it," doesn't just apply to the range.

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    T.Hooks wrote:
    Me wrote:
    Scenario 1: You are in the process ofreceiving a beat-down by one or more unarmed thugs, and you manage to draw your weapon and fire at one or more of them.

    Scenario 2: Threats have been made of physical violence ("This is our turf, we gonna jack you up!" or some other stereotypical line,followed by an advance towards you). Can you draw? This has the great potential of scaring them off, avoiding physical injury of any parties. If this is OK, then what if they are NOT scared off, and continue to advance?

    on the first scenario. If its only one thug than just take the ass whoopin or give one yourself. If a weapon is shown than you draw. A fight is just a fight. You dont run and get your gun and come back into the bar to shoot if a fights brake out in there do you? Now if there are more than four im going to shoot. I figure with my size (6'3 230) i can handle three regular size guys. The way i see it, If you flash your gun there will be a struggle. You can shoot one quick but if he is close enough to jump on you than the other ones can take your gun and your life.

    Scenario 2: You should never draw to scare. If you are in an area that....... seems to be black or low income than why are you walking? chances are if the area is that rough than they have guns to or have homeboys who have guns so the moment you draw and pause wait to see what they do is the moment you offer your life to others. If they are advancing than empty the magazine. reload and look for who ever else wants some.
    Even a single assailant can cause fatal injury in hand-to-had COMBAT. It is not just a fight it is COMBAT. You have no idea what the assailants ultimate goal is. He could have it in his mind that he is going to beat you to the ground and then kick you to DEATH.

    In my case, I would/could only run a very short distance, enough to give me time to draw my weapon and turn to defend myself. I am a 40% disabled veteran. I would shoot if he/they continued to advance after I drew my weapon.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    T.Hooks wrote:
    Me wrote:
    Scenario 1: You are in the process ofreceiving a beat-down by one or more unarmed thugs, and you manage to draw your weapon and fire at one or more of them.

    Scenario 2: Threats have been made of physical violence ("This is our turf, we gonna jack you up!" or some other stereotypical line,followed by an advance towards you). Can you draw? This has the great potential of scaring them off, avoiding physical injury of any parties. If this is OK, then what if they are NOT scared off, and continue to advance?

    on the first scenario. If its only one thug than just take the ass whoopin or give one yourself. If a weapon is shown than you draw. A fight is just a fight. You dont run and get your gun and come back into the bar to shoot if a fights brake out in there do you? Now if there are more than four im going to shoot. I figure with my size (6'3 230) i can handle three regular size guys. The way i see it, If you flash your gun there will be a struggle. You can shoot one quick but if he is close enough to jump on you than the other ones can take your gun and your life.

    Scenario 2: You should never draw to scare. If you are in an area that....... seems to be black or low income than why are you walking? chances are if the area is that rough than they have guns to or have homeboys who have guns so the moment you draw and pause wait to see what they do is the moment you offer your life to others. If they are advancing than empty the magazine. reload and look for who ever else wants some.
    Even a single assailant can cause fatal injury in hand-to-had COMBAT. It is not just a fight it is COMBAT. You have no idea what the assailants ultimate goal is. He could have it in his mind that he is going to beat you to the ground and then kick you to DEATH.

    In my case, I would/could only run a very short distance, enough to give me time to draw my weapon and turn to defend myself. I am a 40% disabled veteran. I would shoot if he/they continued to advance after I drew my weapon.
    in your case i would say shoot it out. but i speaking from my point of view. im 21 6'3 230. the guns can wait if i feel i can kick your ass. but like i said that may be just my views. if its more that three guys or one has a weapon than im shooting untill i can raise my hand anymore. but my question still hasnt been answered. If your in an area that is that bad than why are you walking?

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    T.Hooks wrote:
    If your in an area that is that bad than why are you walking?
    I went to pick up some crack and hit a pot hole, which put a hole in my tire. Or, any other reason your car broke down. Or, people who live in bad areas still take walks. Or......thats about all I've got.

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    Scenario 2: You should never draw to scare. If you are in an area that....... seems to be black or low income than why are you walking? chances are if the area is that rough than they have guns to or have homeboys who have guns so the moment you draw and pause wait to see what they do is the moment you offer your life to others. If they are advancing than empty the magazine. reload and look for who ever else wants some.
    I guess ifI saidsaid "seems to be White or wealthy I'd be wrong. Not all poor Minorities are gonna even look at you twice. But if i was in Alabama at night outside a honky tonk, I could guarantee my minority self a good thrashing from a few good ole boys.

    The simple rule is pay attention to where you are and stay away from trouble.

    I thought my 5 combat tours, 3 purple hearts and bronze star were evidence of no ill will, but my skin color always makes me a threat to some people.

    NeuralOverride

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