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Thread: Fatal shooting of officer leaves neighborhood numb. Portlock, CHESAPEAKEm The Virginian-Pilot

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    http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/fata...ghborhood-numb



    Portlock residents who saw a deadly police shooting unfold on their “quiet street” are finding it difficult to return to normalcy. The man accused of killing Detective Jarrod Shivers said he had no idea the man he shot was a police officer until it was too late.

    Redstart Avenue, a street that dead-ends at a church, still was reeling Friday after a police officer was fatally shot there the night before. The residents say they are in disbelief after realizing that a 28-year-old neighbor is a suspect.

    “It shocked me to death,” said Mavis Cosner, who has lived on the street since 1960. “I’m still a little nervous.”

    Shivers, a 34-year-old father, was shot as was trying to enter at the house in the street’s 900 block around 8:30 p.m. He and several other officers were there with a search warrant as part of a drug investigation, police said.

    Shivers was pronounced dead at Sentara Norfolk General Hospital. He left behind a wife and three children – ages 2, 8 and 14.

    After the shooting, detectives on scene retreated for their safety. The home, which sits in the middle of the block, remained surrounded until the SWAT team arrived and entered.

    Police arrested 28-year-old Ryan David Frederick, who lived at the home, and charged him with first-degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony. He is being held in the Chesapeake City Jail.

    Frederick said in a jailhouse interview Friday he had no idea a police officer was on the other side of the door when he opened fire.

    “No, sir,” he told WAVY-TV. “I just wish I knew who they were,” he said. “I didn’t want any trouble.”

    Frederick said he was in bed when he heard someone trying to come into the home.
    “I thought it was the person who had broken into my house the other day,” he said.
    Frederick said his home had been burglarized two or three days earlier.

    Frederick’s family could not be reached for comment, and he declined to speak to The Virginian-Pilot.

    Police did not say whom they were investigating when they executed the search warrant. Other than a few misdemeanor traffic violations, Frederick has not been convicted of any felony crimes in Chesapeake, according to online court records.

    Chesapeake police spokeswoman Christi Golden said she could not comment on specifics of the incident, including whether the officers who tried to serve the narcotics warrant were in uniform.

    “They are undercover detectives,” Golden said. As such, they would typically be in street clothes. But, when serving warrants, even undercover officers “usually have something that says 'police,’” she said. “They are identified in some way, shape or form.”

    Cosner described Frederick as “a quiet boy.”

    “Goes to work every day and comes home every night,” she said.

    Frederick made local news in 2005 when he sued Dr. Sidney Loxley for $1.7 million, accusing the Chesapeake physician of medicating his mother to the point that she became addicted and later died of an overdose. Frederick’s mother, a former Chesapeake Sheriff’s Department employee, died in 2003.

    “It does make you very nervous,” said Sandra Brooks, a Redstart Avenue resident. “Last night I had a hard time sleeping. I just feel so sorry for the poor police officer doing his job.”

    The last Chesapeake officer to die in the line of duty was Michael Saffran, 45, on Oct. 8, 2005. Saffran was shot after responding to a bank robbery.

    “Our work is inherently dangerous,” said Jack Crimmins, president of the Chesapeake Coalition of Police. “I think a lot of people take our work for granted. Unfortunately, these types of events are increasing instead of decreasing. And it’s a very sad trend.”

    Jack Bider, president of the Fraternal Order of Police, said all attention now turns to Shivers’ survivors.

    “The FOP will pull together,” Bider said. “We’re concerned about the family, and we’re making sure they’re taken care of.”

    The thought of not making it home is in the back of every officer’s mind, he said.

    “Every time we wake up in the morning, with a weapon on our hip and a badge on our chest, we think about it.”

    John Hopkins, (757) 222-5221, john.hopkins@pilotonline.com

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    This officer AND the shooter are victims of a "war on drugs" out of control. When law

    enforcementexecutes crash,bang, boom commando style home invasion warrant

    service,and no knock warrants , they should fully expect causalities. Normally it's

    law enforcement murdering a citizen by "accidental discharge" that we read about.

    Occasionally it's a dreadful story like the elderly lady that was killed after shooting at

    men breaking into her home, who turned out to be idiot cops serving a warrant at

    the wrong address. This time it was a police officer, so I guess we the citizenryare

    supposed to be sosad and feel bad. Forgive me , but frankly I don't. Invading a

    persons home like this over drugs is ridiculous, reckless and uncalled for. If the cops

    had killed theguy, he wouldn't be around to go to trial and defend himself. Everyone

    would read about the cops killing another"drug dealer" and might be inclined to think

    that OK. It's not, the madness brought on by this war on drugs is effecting too many

    people. A very small percentage ofAmericans traffic or deal in drugs and yet we all

    are subject to it's effects and inconveniences. Vehicle searches, potential accidental

    police invasion of your home, the list is endless. In fact you canwatch theDateline

    videos about our United States custom service profiling black people for cavity

    searches, enemas and other invasive searches upon reentry into the States, after

    vacationing in Jamaica. The video is available at http://www.policeabuse.org

    With ******** like that regularly occurring the anger towards law enforcement will just

    continue to grow.



    Our privacy and freedom are underattack. I'm sorry but I don't feel bad about this.

    Cops have been killing citizens for a long time in this Country and it needs to stop.

    I would vote notguilty on all charges and walk the guy. Murder in the first degree ?

    You have to be crazy to vote guilty on these circumstance. Involuntary manslaughter maybe.


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    jack wrote:
    Invading a persons home like this over drugs is ridiculous, reckless and uncalled for. If the cops had killed theguy, he wouldn't be around to go to trial and defend himself. Everyonewould read about the cops killing another"drug dealer" and might be inclined to think that OK. It's not, the madness brought on by this war on drugs is effecting too many people.
    My feelings exactly.

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    Three children are now without a father. A legal warrant was obtained. Yet...



    Can we no longer mourn each other?
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    jack wrote:
    I'm sorry but I don't feel bad about this.

    Cops have been killing citizens for a long time in this Country and it needs to stop.
    I just finished a 6 hour drive to Richmond to Lobby for GUN RIGHTS and I log onto my email to see if there are any GUN RIGHTS issues that I need to address and once again I have an email asking me to comment on ANTI-LEO postings on the board.

    Jack ... you would have been a LOT better off if you had stopped before writing this at the end of your post.

    We have all contemplated the nightmare scenario of having a no-knock warrant served at our home and it is valid to talk about this and how we each might respond. It is also valid to discuss changes to the law to make such warrants the exception rather than the rule (as is now the case).

    BUT ... This is MY BOARD and I will NOT have anyone gloating over the death of ANYONE, LEO or civilian!!! This officer left behind a wife and children and was trying to make the world a better place. Even if we want to work to stop the harm that no-knock warrants are doing to our freedoms, you cannot fault this man for doing his job! And to say that you do not feel bad about this says far more about you than I think you wished to expose.

    And SECOND ... making blanket statements about police killing civilians is not beneficial to open carry in the slightest. If you want to work against police corruption, there are internet forums for that but THIS IS NOT ONE!!!

    People ... I asked once nicely ... I am tired of hearing from the press asking about these posts that make us all look like a bunch of ranting, insane, extremists!!!

    This thread is NOT closed because the actual topic of no-knock warrants and how to deal with them is valid. But THINK before you post people!!!! Second warning ...

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    Glad to see how quickly the victim (the homeowner) portrayed the criminal and how quickly the police are to charge the person.

    With all of the no-knock warrants going wrong, the police are always quick to make statements in support of their officers and the fact they identify themselves or act properly. If this is their main statement

    “They are undercover detectives,” Golden said. As such, they would typically be in street clothes. But, when serving warrants, even undercover officers “usually have something that says 'police,’” she said. “They are identified in some way, shape or form.”
    then it sounds like something went wrong here.

    Whats the difference between this shooting and the homeowner shooting in MN? This one killed a police officer and so they want to put the victim in jail.

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    I've read the article twice. As usual, there is not enough information to really figure out what happened.

    Maybe we ought to make a forum rule that every posted newstory start with the caution:


    THIS ISAN ARTICLE FROM THE AMERICAN PRESS. IT PROBABLY DOES NOT CONTAIN ENOUGH INFORMATION TO MAKE INFORMED CONCLUSIONS.


    DRAW CONCLUSIONS AT YOUR OWN RISK.


    With that said, I'm curious whyit was posted without comment. What was your intent, Doug?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Citizen is right about lack of info, but I think a generalization can be made.

    I think this harkens back to Hawkflyer's warning not to shoot people through doors. Using deadly force against someone who is seperated from you by a barrier and whom you have not even seen much less identified doesn't sound very bright to me.

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    jpierce wrote:
    ...and was trying to make the world a better place."

    "...you cannot fault this man for doing his job!"

    "making blanket statements about police..."
    I am always confused by the incongruity of this matter. the Police, while still human, somehow deserve positive blanket statements, but not negative. It is perfectly acceptable to make negative blanket statements about Civilians/Citizens all day long though.

    Especially, if he/she speaks up about this.

    This is a big part of why I don't waste my time on this forum, (save the rare just-have-to-say-it); State Hero Worship.

    We talk about how the state is crossing way over the line in so many ways, yet we assume the best of it's agents every time one of them becomes the casualty of the actions and behaviors he/she supports and enforces?

    I did my part to make the world a better place 3 weeks into the Police Academy; I QUIT. Being a man of good conscience and moral convictions, I could not use 'just doing my job' as a tongue-in-cheek excuse to get away with doing what I know is wrong. It has been the excuse of many a tyrant, but not mine. I emptied one pair of shoes. Probably just filled by another egomanical, goose-stepping, freedom-hater.... But I'm glad I didn't compromise as so many others do.

    That being said, I never knew the guy, maybe he was one of the rare 'good ones.' Maybe he really buys the propaganda, and honestly believes his job function is/was a good thing. Maybe he often was a good sumaritan. But neither of us knows that, and making blanket statements is, as you say, not acceptable practice.

    I partly agree with the second post... I don't feel terribly bad about it. Not for the Officer's part. The family left behind, yes...

    Exactly who do you think you'll have to shoot at when the jig is finally up? When, in these isolated incidents that is exactly what happens, why so sad? Did the Jews in Poland get such a harsh rebuking?

    How might WWII have ended up, if we assumed that shooting people in uniform was a bad thing, simply becasue they were 'doing their jobs?'

    Some of them NEED, very desperately, to be killed. But to apply assumptions of good to the very State that we know is an enemy of Freedom and Rights, seems pretty silly to me. Especially to then make it policy to censor anyone who might dare offer an opposing perspective...

    Seriously, how dare we say soemthing bad about the State and it's Agents.... What does that remind you of? Who needs a leader with a secret double lightning-bolt tattoo when we have folks who think like this?

    Do not forget that there is a tragic personal part of this story. But let in not blind you to the reality either. And, Sir, I beg you not to sacrifice your credibility for favor in the eyes of the foolish.

    If the Devil hates me, I must be doing something right.
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    Using deadly force against someone who is seperated from you by a barrier and whom you have not even seen much less identified doesn't sound very bright to me.

    +1 Tomahawk. He might have believed it was a burglar. The police might not have identified themselves. Although sad, a simple "Who's there?" might have resulted in a different ending.

    I never fire at anything unless I know exactly what it is. This is while hunting, not to mention a situation where it could be a human being.

    What if it was a neighbor kid, or a FedEX delivery man? He made the decision to shoot because he thought it MIGHT be a burglar? A reasonable person couldn't possibly believe he was afraid for his life if he wasn't DEFINATELY assured of the risk of losing it. Deadly force isn't reasonable against a MAYBE.

    Bad decision to shoot. I hope he's convicted.

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    War on drugs without closing the southern border where most of them are coming in is pointless. It's like bailing a rowboat with a cup when there is a 4" hole in the bottom. It is nothing but sad.

    One would think that the FOP and the public would have long ago put a stop to the no knock warrants except in the most extreme, well documented, well investigated, 99.99999% sure cases. I don't know if I am more afraid of having a criminal break into my house late at night and be smart enough to yell "Police" so I think it is a police error so I hold my fire and have my life and my family destroyed by what follows, or that the police would actually erroneously break into my house, I would shoot one in what I think is self-defense, and then have my life and my family destroyed fighting to prove to prove my innocence.

    “Our work is inherently dangerous,” said Jack Crimmins, president of the Chesapeake Coalition of Police. “I think a lot of people take our work for granted. Unfortunately, these types of events are increasing instead of decreasing. And it’s a very sad trend.”
    I applaud LEOs for doing such a dangerous, difficult job as well as the families who support them. I also find it unfortunate that these types of events are increasing as many could be easily prevented in ways related to police tactics and methodology and asinine legislation. I find it disturbing that after one of these incidents I never read about a police chief saying that maybe the department needs to review and revise their tactics so that no citizen's private residence is errorneously attacked again. Detective Jarrod Shivers and his family and Ryan Frederick and his family both appear to be innocent victims. It will be interesting to see this develops and find out if Frederick is as innocent as appears.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Some of them NEED, very desperately, to be killed.
    This is EXACTLY the type of comment that is NOT welcome here. I made it perfectly clear that you are welcome to discuss the freedom-destroying effects of no-knock warrants and the current direction that the War on Drugs has taken. And I might add that I did NOT censor the original poster ... rather, I chastised what I felt was a thoughtless post.

    To address your comment above. Many people need to be educated about their rights. Many people need to understand why they are wrong in how they see things. But neither you nor I nor anyone on this board has the right to say that anyone needs to be killed AND DOING SO IS UNACCEPTABLE ON THIS FORUM!!!

    You may feel free to use the rest of this thread to call me a tool of the state if you wish, but you are truly blind if you feel comments like the one above contribute ANYTHING to the process of defending our rights.



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    This no knock warrant is a direct result of our US Supreme Court believing the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don't want anyone to die, citizens or LEOs. The facts show that no knocks has caused more people getting hurt, both sides. It would seem to me that if I were a LEO I would not participate in such actions.

    I don't believe LEOs agree to intentionally place themselves in a direct position of danger when they take the job. Don't get me wrong, the job is dangerous.

    No knocks are based on the BG flushing evidence. Logic tells me that loosing my life over evidence is not worth it. This is not like a fireman/fireperson running into a building to save a life.

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    ixtow wrote:
    jpierce wrote:
    ...and was trying to make the world a better place."

    "...you cannot fault this man for doing his job!"

    "making blanket statements about police..."
    SNIP I am always confused by the incongruity of this matter.
    Its pretty easy to figure out. Just read John's post again. And his earlier post on the same subject. He lays it out rather well.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I am deeply saddened by the loss of the detective in my city.

    No knock warrants have always worried me.

    1. My home, like the shooter's,has been burglarized withmy door kicked in. I slept with a loaded shotgun next to my bed for a month. Since the break in I have fortified my doors. If I was woken in the middle of the night withmy door being kicked down, I would like to think that I had the discipline to wait before firing, but until it happens, that is all just conjecture.

    2. I now have another fear, and that is that I will have to sit as a juror in this trial. I live in the city where this happened. I think that the standard for judging this man is whether hefeared for his life or safety and whether his actions were reasonable under the circumstances.

    3. The Chesapeake police arededicated, professional and fair. Those that make disparaging remarks about them are far off the mark. Please pedal your spiteful anti cop crap somewhere else.

    4. The Chesapeake Police are not perfect. A few months ago they ruined a house because they thought a suspect was inside. Tear gas and shots were fired into a window by the SWAT Team. Suspect was not at the address and didn't even live there. The response of the police administration for trashing this innocent ladies house was slow, callused and unprofessional. It significantly harmed community relations.

    5. It seems odd that the narcotics detectives, and not the SWAT Team,were serving a warrant in the middle of the night.

    6. I prey that there is an independent review of the incident to try to prevent more situations like this in the future. I say independent review because the citizens and especially the patrolmen and detectives deserve a review free from the influence of the city police administration, which I am far less confident about than the officers out on the beat. If this was another screw up in serving a warrant then Chief Justice must go. (Yes the last name of the Chief of the Chesapeake police is Justice). Any internal police review will be seen as a save Chief Justice's job whitewashing.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    jpierce wrote:
    jack wrote:
    I'm sorry but I don't feel bad about this.

    Cops have been killing citizens for a long time in this Country and it needs to stop.
    I just finished a 6 hour drive to Richmond to Lobby for GUN RIGHTS and I log onto my email to see if there are any GUN RIGHTS issues that I need to address and once again I have an email asking me to comment on ANTI-LEO postings on the board.

    Jack ... you would have been a LOT better off if you had stopped before writing this at the end of your post.

    We have all contemplated the nightmare scenario of having a no-knock warrant served at our home and it is valid to talk about this and how we each might respond. It is also valid to discuss changes to the law to make such warrants the exception rather than the rule (as is now the case).

    BUT ... This is MY BOARD and I will NOT have anyone gloating over the death of ANYONE, LEO or civilian!!! This officer left behind a wife and children and was trying to make the world a better place. Even if we want to work to stop the harm that no-knock warrants are doing to our freedoms, you cannot fault this man for doing his job! And to say that you do not feel bad about this says far more about you than I think you wished to expose.

    And SECOND ... making blanket statements about police killing civilians is not beneficial to open carry in the slightest. If you want to work against police corruption, there are internet forums for that but THIS IS NOT ONE!!!

    People ... I asked once nicely ... I am tired of hearing from the press asking about these posts that make us all look like a bunch of ranting, insane, extremists!!!

    This thread is NOT closed because the actual topic of no-knock warrants and how to deal with them is valid. But THINK before you post people!!!! Second warning ...


    Frankly I don't see how my post made myself, you or "us" collectively look like a

    bunch ofranting,insane, extremists, as you put it. I find that rather offensive and

    disrespectful of the POSTERS that have made this board work.You obviously have a

    very elevated opinion of yourself, and like to be continually condescending to posters

    with views that differ from your own. You rebuke other's language but than ask


    "what the **** is wrong with you people" (referring to posters here) in another

    similarpost.Frankly that is about the worst language I have seen on this board and

    it came from you, the moderator. Perhaps someone with better people skills could

    be appointed moderator before you destroy it. No one is "gloating"over the death of

    this cop,

    it just isn't any bigger tragedy than the often ignored slaughter of a citizen by the

    illegal and reckless actions of ourpolice.In your typical "high and mighty"rant you

    seem to havemissed the whole point of the post. If youare going to tell posters

    what to think and post maybe you should just close this site down and starta blogg.

    It would probably serve toyour feed your egomore effectively. I'm starting to see

    that as the real reason for this site (showcasing yourself as the big man of the open

    carry movement), so perhaps it should just beanother blog that

    few read. People come here to converse and exchange opinions, if your need to

    control the dissemination and free flow of other's thoughts is so great , you should

    have never connected to the INTERNET. Censorship kills message boards quicker than

    anything.

    I will morn this cop when the cops stop murdering citizens like this young man from Manassass, Virginia. Story available at http://www.lewrockwell.com

    Search Hale and you will be able to read about thissoldier's slaughter at the hands of the police.






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    jack wrote:
    jpierce wroteYou obviously have a very elevated opinion of yourself, and like to be continually condescending to posters with views that differ from your own.

    ...

    If youare going to tell posters what to think and post maybe you should just close this site down and starta blogg.

    It would probably serve toyour feed your egomore effectively. I'm starting to see that as the real reason for this site (showcasing yourself as the big man of the open carry movement), so perhaps it should just beanother blog that few read.

    ...
    If your need to control the dissemination and free flow of other's thoughts is so great , you should have never connected to the INTERNET. Censorship kills message boards quicker than anything.
    Look to the left of my post. Under my avatar, there is a post count. This post should be 377 (or close to it). In the entire time that this board has been running, including the news and political alerts I have shared, I have only posted 377 times. That doesn't seem to me to be "continually condescending to posters" or "showcasing myself as the big man of the open carry movement".

    I believe very strongly that the forum should be only lightly moderated but aside from over-moderation, the other way to kill a forum is to let things get out of hand.

    Perhaps someone with better people skills could be appointed moderator before you destroy it.
    As I said earlier ... you are free to mock me as you see fit. This IS a free forum and there are no rules that say you must like me. But I do ask that we focus on open carry and gun rights. As I said earlier, there are forums on the internet dedicated to police corruption and anarchy BUT THIS IS NEITHER!

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    "Focus on gun rights & open carry."

    My above post did. The Manassass, Virginia Marine killed by the police was open carrying when slaughtered by the swat team.

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    It is always sad to hear the death of a law enforcement officer....

    The LEO goes out to keep the community safe in a variety of ways and does this for the people. He puts his life on the line to help make the quality of life better for the community. And for this he receives a small paycheck and is hated for doing his job.

    The war on drugs will never be won but we must at least curb it as much as possible. The police do controlled buys and know where the drug houses are at. This is likely why they entered this guys house.

    No knock and at night... why??!!

    Drug dealers have guns so they can protect their cash and product. Other drug dealers will come and try to shut them down and take what they find.

    If the police come during the day they can be shot walking up the the door and the evidence can easily be destroyed while keeping the police out. Catching the bay guy sleeping gives them time to get in and take the bad guy down without any shooting.

    Unfortunately.. this does not always happen. Some people are there, waiting inside.... not for the police so much as the competition to pay them a visit. So asforced entry is made... they bag guy just starts shooting.

    It should be noted that no knock warrants after hours are special and required a judges permission. This is used on really bad people and not the soccer mom for some petty crime.

    But when your door is being kicked in, explosions are happening, and they are saying "Police Department!! Search Warrant!!" You might want to hold off on shooting or you will be tried for murder.




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    The article didn't say anything about a flash bang being deployed, so I think explosions are out. Additionally they were plain clothes officers serving a no knock warrant, get real.

    Home invasions have occurred where the criminals were wearing clothing that said police, were yelling "police open up" and flashing badges.

    How many cases of crazies making traffic stops with flashing lights have occurred recently. One case had the impersonator using a SUV with grill lights installed.



    I bet the guy walks,especially if therewere no drugs foundin he home.



  21. #21
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    Better tried by twelve, men good and true, than carried by six mourners. A hero dies once gloriously while a coward dies a little at a time with every cozening.

    Doug Huffman
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    jack wrote:
    The article didn't say anything about a flash bang being deployed, so I think explosions are out. Additionally they were plain clothes officers serving a no knock warrant, get real.

    Home invasions have occurred where the criminals were wearing clothing that said police, were yelling "police open up" and flashing badges.

    How many cases of crazies making traffic stops with flashing lights have occurred recently. One case had the impersonator using a SUV with grill lights installed.

    I bet the guy walks,especially if therewere no drugs foundin he home.
    First off, I never identified that the manner of entry I said was used at that house. This is "traditionally" how it is accomplished. I have no idea what was done in that situation where the officer was murdered by the bad guy. I suggest you read things a little more slowly.

    And for your comments about cops killing innocent people.....

    That soldier was a member of an outlaw motorcycle gang!

    http://lippard.blogspot.com/2007/03/...police-in.html

    "Since its inception, Pagans has produced and distributed methamphetamine; it now distributes cocaine as well. Pagans members have also committed murders, vehicle thefts, black market firearms violations, and extortion."

    He refused to remove his hands and show them to the police The police tasered him and tried to get his left hand out but failed. Not knowing what he had in that hand and his refusal to show it caused the police to take further action.

    It was his decision to fail to comply and show his hands. He was later found to be in possession of some mace and a switchblade.

    Is is sad that he had to be shot but he had to be taken seriously as a threat since he was a member of a gang. Gang members can and do kill the police. There are people on this board that talk about killing police and they are not even gang members.

  23. #23
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    SO WHAT, SO THE COPS CAN KILL HIM ? He had zero criminal history . They didn't have a warrant for him and were tailing him on a hunch.

    He had just recently joined the Pagans after they sponsored TOYS FOR TOTS . Not all Pagans distribute meth. I deal with several pagan members regularly. One owns a auto repair shop and the other a computer repair service. Many Pagans are ex-veterans looking for comradery. Not my kind of fellowship, but we have a right of association in this country.

    He didn't comply after being taser, yep Ytube is full of those cases. Cops going crazy with tasered (which should be removed from all police cars) is nothing new. Many times people can't react after being tased.

    They tasered him one second after a verbal command to remove his hands from his pockets. Nice, then they shot him.

    And law enforcement folks wonder why everyday business people have contempt for cops ? Easy, we don't like murder.

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    jack wrote:
    SO WHAT, SO THE COPS CAN KILL HIM ?

    He had just joined the Pagans after they sponsor TOYS FOR TOTS .
    Based on the fact that the outlaw motorcycle gang members are basically all criminals... it is guilt by association.And the Toys for Tots thing... please!!! He joined up with a known criminal element.

    Everyone in the US knows that the Hells Angels and the Pagans are a criminal enterprises. For someone to join up with a group like that.... not the best decision in the world.

    The motorcycle members are dangerous and his refusal to show his hands dictates that he is a clear and present danger.

    Believe it or not... criminals draw and shoot cops so they can escape. Many people have done this so his actions MUST be viewed as dangerous. He decided to not show his hands....

    What would you have the police do in that situation



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    jack wrote:
    .... Easy, we don't like murder.
    Yes you do.... as long as it is a cop being murdered.
    I'm sorry but I don't feel bad about this.
    Cops do not like being murdered either. It seems that the same people you are talking about are more than willing to kill cops in uniform. Some do it when they are about to get a speeding ticket or arrested for DWI.

    Minor offenses... but they will still kill a cop over it. So the police, after having thisexperienced thisfor years, must now view certain acts as a threat and take action to prevent themselves from being killed.

    Don't hate the cop for not wanting to be shot.....

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