Fatal shooting of officer leaves neighborhood numb. Portlock, CHESAPEAKEm The Virginian-Pilot

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Better tried by twelve, men good and true, than carried by six mourners. A hero dies once gloriously while a coward dies a little at a time with every cozening.

Doug Huffman
Washington Island
Wisconsin

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jack wrote:

The article didn't say anything about a flash bang being deployed, so I think explosions are out. Additionally they were plain clothes officers serving a no knock warrant, get real.

Home invasions have occurred where the criminals were wearing clothing that said police, were yelling "police open up" and flashing badges.

How many cases of crazies making traffic stops with flashing lights have occurred recently. One case had the impersonator using a SUV with grill lights installed.

I bet the guy walks,especially if therewere no drugs foundin he home.

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First off, I never identified that the manner of entry I said was used at that house. This is "traditionally" how it is accomplished. I have no idea what was done in that situation where the officer was murdered by the bad guy. I suggest you read things a little more slowly.

And for your comments about cops killing innocent people.....

That soldier was a member of an outlaw motorcycle gang!

http://lippard.blogspot.com/2007/03/returned-soldier-killed-by-police-in.html

"Since its inception, Pagans has produced and distributed methamphetamine; it now distributes cocaine as well. Pagans members have also committed murders, vehicle thefts, black market firearms violations, and extortion."

He refused to remove his hands and show them to the police The police tasered him and tried to get his left hand out but failed. Not knowing what he had in that hand and his refusal to show it caused the police to take further action.

It was his decision to fail to comply and show his hands. He was later found to be in possession of some mace and a switchblade.

Is is sad that he had to be shot but he had to be taken seriously as a threat since he was a member of a gang. Gang members can and do kill the police. There are people on this board that talk about killing police and they are not even gang members.

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SO WHAT, SO THE COPS CAN KILL HIM ? He had zero criminal history . They didn't have a warrant for him and were tailing him on a hunch.

He had just recently joined the Pagans after they sponsored TOYS FOR TOTS . Not all Pagans distribute meth. I deal with several pagan members regularly. One owns a auto repair shop and the other a computer repair service. Many Pagans are ex-veterans looking for comradery. Not my kind of fellowship, but we have a right of association in this country.

He didn't comply after being taser, yep Ytube is full of those cases. Cops going crazy with tasered (which should be removed from all police cars) is nothing new. Many times people can't react after being tased.

They tasered him one second after a verbal command to remove his hands from his pockets. Nice, then they shot him.

And law enforcement folks wonder why everyday business people have contempt for cops ? Easy, we don't like murder.

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jack wrote:

SO WHAT, SO THE COPS CAN KILL HIM ?

He had just joined the Pagans after they sponsor TOYS FOR TOTS .

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Based on the fact that the outlaw motorcycle gang members are basically all criminals... it is guilt by association.And the Toys for Tots thing... please!!! He joined up with a known criminal element.

Everyone in the US knows that the Hells Angels and the Pagans are a criminal enterprises. For someone to join up with a group like that.... not the best decision in the world.

The motorcycle members are dangerous and his refusal to show his hands dictates that he is a clear and present danger.

Believe it or not... criminals draw and shoot cops so they can escape. Many people have done this so his actions MUST be viewed as dangerous. He decided to not show his hands....

What would you have the police do in that situation :question:

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jack wrote:

.... Easy, we don't like murder.

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Yes you do.... as long as it is a cop being murdered.

I'm sorry but I don't feel bad about this.

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Cops do not like being murdered either. It seems that the same people you are talking about are more than willing to kill cops in uniform. Some do it when they are about to get a speeding ticket or arrested for DWI.

Minor offenses... but they will still kill a cop over it. So the police, after having thisexperienced thisfor years, must now view certain acts as a threat and take action to prevent themselves from being killed.

Don't hate the cop for not wanting to be shot.....

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jack wrote:

SO WHAT, SO THE COPS CAN KILL HIM ? He had zero criminal history . They didn't have a warrant for him and were tailing him on a hunch.

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Don't feed the troll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

"Do not feed the trolls" redirects here. For the Wikipedia essay, see Wikipedia:What is a troll?. An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response. [1]

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This thread has drifted way off course. A Chesapeake detective was killed in the line of duty serving a lawful search warrant. Nothing has been reported that this was a no-knock warrant, and I doubt it was. Most detectives are in plain clothes as it is the nature of their job. A raid vest with "POLICE" is put on, and a badge of authority is displayed. So until there is evidence proving that these officers deviated from this typical response, there should be no need to gripe over this search warrant.

The 4th amendment protects against unlawful search and seizure, and these officers had a lawful search warrant. What else can they do to honor the 4th amendment?

It is sad when anyone has to die when doing a good thing, be he/she a member of the armed forces, firefighter, EMT, police etc. If his occupation blinds you to compassion, then please don't gripe when the anti-2A crowd practices their same type of bigotry.

Just my .02 cents

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Most detectives are in plain clothes as it is the nature of their job. A raid vest with "POLICE" is put on, and a badge of authority is displayed.

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The dumbass never knew. He fired THROUGH the door. It could have been a Girl Scout for all he knew.

Do honest upstanding citizens who are models of society FIRE WEAPONS THROUGH DOORS? If this were so, mailmen, delivery drivers, AVON ladies, and everyone who knocked on a door would be dropping like flies.

A law abiding citizen doesn't shoot because they THINK something MIGHT be. A law abiding citizen shoots because they definately KNOW their life is in DANGER.

Contrary to Jack's belief, I'm pretty sure judges do not authorize search warrants randomly. The fact that an officer was shot serving it begs the fact that the judge was probably right to issue it. I didn't say it proves any guilt on the part of the homeowner, but it just helps to illustrate the need for something to be looked into.

Send the cop killer to a bad place. If he doesn't deserve it for any illegal activity, he does forSHOOTING AT UNKNOWN TARGETS.

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LEO 229 wrote:

It is always sad to hear the death of a law enforcement officer....

The LEO goes out to keep the community safe in a variety of ways and does this for the people. He puts his life on the line to help make the quality of life better for the community. And for this he receives a small paycheck and is hated for doing his job.

The war on drugs will never be won but we must at least curb it as much as possible. The police do controlled buys and know where the drug houses are at. This is likely why they entered this guys house.

No knock and at night... why??!!

Drug dealers have guns so they can protect their cash and product. Other drug dealers will come and try to shut them down and take what they find.

If the police come during the day they can be shot walking up the the door and the evidence can easily be destroyed while keeping the police out. Catching the bay guy sleeping gives them time to get in and take the bad guy down without any shooting.

Unfortunately.. this does not always happen. Some people are there, waiting inside.... not for the police so much as the competition to pay them a visit. So asforced entry is made... they bag guy just starts shooting.

It should be noted that no knock warrants after hours are special and required a judges permission. This is used on really bad people and not the soccer mom for some petty crime.

But when your door is being kicked in, explosions are happening, and they are saying "Police Department!! Search Warrant!!" You might want to hold off on shooting or you will be tried for murder.

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LEO 229, Ifonly we knew that the picture you painted was reality, then I would say give the shooter the needle. (Your picture - Drug house, drug dealer, waiting to shoot at anybody that comes to the house)

1. The Portlock area of Chesapeake is a rough area. It is very plausible for the shooter to have had his house broken into in this neighborhood. It is not at all unlikely for the shooter to fear a home invasion in this part of Chesapeake.

2. There have not been, to date, any narcotics charges against the shooter. The shooter did not have any previous record except for motor vehicle violations.

3. The press haven't been able to publish the warrant, so it most likely has been sealed.

4.The choices forcharging the shooter are: Capital Murder, First Degree Murder, Second Degree Murder and Manslaughter (voluntary and involuntary). The Commonwealth's Attorney has chosen to charge the shooter with First Degree Murder. The difference between first and second degree murder is a very narrow list of aggravating circumstances for murder 1, none of which seem to agree with the limited newspaper article information that we have. I wonderwhich of the aggravating circumstances was used to charge with Murder 1 instead of Murder 2.

5. Hopefully all of the facts surrounding this event will be published soon. If you read the blog comments in the Virginia Pilot there are many people besides me that think there is more to this story than drug thug kills cop.

Capital Murder:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-31

1st and 2nd Degree Murder:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-32

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Superlite27 wrote:

Most detectives are in plain clothes as it is the nature of their job. A raid vest with "POLICE" is put on, and a badge of authority is displayed.

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The dumbass never knew. He fired THROUGH the door. It could have been a Girl Scout for all he knew.

Do honest upstanding citizens who are models of society FIRE WEAPONS THROUGH DOORS? If this were so, mailmen, delivery drivers, AVON ladies, and everyone who knocked on a door would be dropping like flies.

A law abiding citizen doesn't shoot because they THINK something MIGHT be. A law abiding citizen shoots because they definately KNOW their life is in DANGER.

Contrary to Jack's belief, I'm pretty sure judges do not authorize search warrants randomly. The fact that an officer was shot serving it begs the fact that the judge was probably right to issue it. I didn't say it proves any guilt on the part of the homeowner, but it just helps to illustrate the need for something to be looked into.

Send the cop killer to a bad place. If he doesn't deserve it for any illegal activity, he does forSHOOTING AT UNKNOWN TARGETS.

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I had not read the story yet... To fire blindly through he door is rather dumb. He had a total disregard for human life.

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TheApostle wrote:

The 4th amendment protects against unlawful search and seizure, and these officers had a lawful search warrant. What else can they do to honor the 4th amendment?

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We are assuming that the officers had a lawful search warrant. There is a very high hurdle to overcome in order toobtain a search warrant that can be served at night. Traditional common law did not allow for the serving of warrants at night, and for good reason.

The real problem is that this sort of home assault search warrant is very similar to a home invasion. It Virginia a person has a common law defence of justifiable homicide. There can be cases where the person whose home is being invaded by law enforcement has fear for their life, has not been properly notified about the warrant or that the invaders are law enforcement, and uses deadly force to defend their own life.

In the sort of scenario above, nobody at the scene is in the wrong. There is tragedy. It is often an innocent civilian, but sometimes a police officer. The 90+ year old grandmother in Atlanta that was shot to death by police who were serving a home assault search warrant based upon bad information is a good example. The culpability, in my opinion, is in the policy that allows a violent entry to a home at night under the authority of a warrant that is, on the face of it, unreasonable and in my humble opinion unconstitutional on 4th A grounds.

Stop the home invasions by police. They should be peace officers engaged in community policing, not a paramilitary force. Having spent years of my life prosecuting the war on drugs I have very strong opinions that we are making a mistake, but I think that detectives conducting street buys are much more effective and safer than home invasions.

The war on drugs just isn't worth the lives of our police officers and the turning of our Republic into a police state.

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TheApostle wrote:

This thread has drifted way off course. A Chesapeake detective was killed in the line of duty serving a lawful search warrant. Nothing has been reported that this was a no-knock warrant, and I doubt it was. Most detectives are in plain clothes as it is the nature of their job. A raid vest with "POLICE" is put on, and a badge of authority is displayed. So until there is evidence proving that these officers deviated from this typical response, there should be no need to gripe over this search warrant.

The 4th amendment protects against unlawful search and seizure, and these officers had a lawful search warrant. What else can they do to honor the 4th amendment?

It is sad when anyone has to die when doing a good thing, be he/she a member of the armed forces, firefighter, EMT, police etc. If his occupation blinds you to compassion, then please don't gripe when the anti-2A crowd practices their same type of bigotry.

Just my .02 cents

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Agreed... we have strayed...

What it comes down to is that the officer obtained the required documentation from the government in order to enter the house. There was no illegal activity done by the police here.

Everything the slain officerdid was proper and he waskilled at the door while trying to serve thesearch warrant.

"Frederick said in a jailhouse interview Friday he had no idea a police officer was on the other side of the door when he opened fire."

To just shoot at someone outside your door not knowing who it was has got to beone of the most irresponsible things you can do. I said before.. you have to identify your target before shooting. This guy did not care who was outside the door!!

I feel bad for the officer, his department, his co-workers, his friends, his family, his wife, and most of all... his kids.

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Thundar wrote:

TheApostle wrote:

The 4th amendment protects against unlawful search and seizure, and these officers had a lawful search warrant. What else can they do to honor the 4th amendment?

Click to expand...

We are assuming that the officers had a lawful search warrant. There is a very high hurdle to overcome in order toobtain a search warrant that can be served at night. Traditional common law did not allow for the serving of warrants at night, and for good reason.

The real problem is that this sort of home assault search warrant is very similar to a home invasion. It Virginia a person has a common law defence of justifiable homicide. There can be cases where the person whose home is being invaded by law enforcement has fear for their life, has not been properly notified about the warrant or that the invaders are law enforcement, and uses deadly force to defend their own life.

In the sort of scenario above, nobody at the scene is in the wrong. There is tragedy. It is often an innocent civilian, but sometimes a police officer. The 90+ year old grandmother in Atlanta that was shot to death by police who were serving a home assault search warrant based upon bad information is a good example. The culpability, in my opinion, is in the policy that allows a violent entry to a home at night under the authority of a warrant that is, on the face of it, unreasonable and in my humble opinion unconstitutional on 4th A grounds.

Stop the home invasions by police. They should be peace officers engaged in community policing, not a paramilitary force. Having spent years of my life prosecuting the war on drugs I have very strong opinions that we are making a mistake, but I think that detectives conducting street buys are much more effective and safer than home invasions.

The war on drugs just isn't worth the lives of our police officers and the turning of our Republic into a police state.

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So you are alleging they did not have the proper documentation?

Are you saying that the a man shooting through his door and killing an unknown man outside his house is justified?

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LEO 229 wrote:

He refused to remove his hands and show them to the police The police tasered him and tried to get his left hand out but failed. Not knowing what he had in that hand and his refusal to show it caused the police to take further action.

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Isn't it hard to type and hold a donut at the same time? Maybe you should just go away.

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Hi, new to the board. I believe he stated in the interview that he saw a big black thing crashing throught the door then someone coming through the bottom of the door and he just started shooting. Lets just ASUME he is being honest and had no idea it was an officer. Would you not have done the same thing? I think to say he did not know his target is misleading. One way or another he knew exaclty what he was shooting at.

A: A police officer (then he should burn)

B:A crackhead (he did as we all should)

Until everything comes to light we have no idea. IMHO, I find it hard to believe that a 28 year old with underage drinking as his most serious offence would knowingly off a cop. Hell, we may never learn the truth. As of right now only three people know and that is the shooter, the officer, and God himself.

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jermflux wrote:

Hi, new to the board. I believe he stated in the interview that he saw a big black thing crashing throught the door then someone coming through the bottom of the door and he just started shooting. Lets just ASUME he is being honest and had no idea it was an officer. Would you not have done the same thing? I think to say he did not know his target is misleading. One way or another he knew exaclty what he was shooting at.

A: A police officer (then he should burn)

B:A crackhead (he did as we all should)

Until everything comes to light we have no idea. IMHO, I find it hard to believe that a 28 year old with underage drinking as his most serious offence would knowingly off a cop. Hell, we may never learn the truth. As of right now only three people know and that is the shooter, the officer, and God himself.

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It would seem logical to act as you stated... but you still must identify what is going on and if there is a real threat.

Someone kicking in your door is not an immediatethreat to you if you are armed. You can always challenge them at gun point and identify if the person is armed and dangerous.

If a strangerentersyour house whilethe door is unlocked... does this mean you can shoothim too?

It is possible that the shooter reacted to what was happening at his door. But was it proper? I do not know if the door was opened or closed.. or what exactly happened. I am trying to not speculate too much and work with only what we have learned so far.

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LEO 229 wrote:

So you are alleging they did not have the proper documentation?

Are you saying that the a man shooting through his door and killing an unknown man outside his house is justified?

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We do not know about the search warrant. It is a public document that has been kept from the public, presumably by the public servant (judge) that signed it.

We do not know the circumstances around the shooting. This is all conjecture. Read my contributions to this thread. I strongly support the police. I do not support home invasion warrants at night. The police in my city are too valuable to be risked in such a manner.

I do not support the Chief of Police in Chesapeake. I think he badly mishandled the last SWAT Team SNAFU in Chesapeake. I think that there should be an independent investigation outside of the Chesapeake Police Dept. The officers deserve a fair review of the policies that let Officer Shivers to that doorstep in Portlock at night. Without such a review I fear that I will attend another memorial service that might have been prevented.

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jack wrote:
Jack,

Your comments are over the top.

All we're being asked/demanded by John is to stop making anti-LEO generalizations/blanket statements. Its not hard. If you have a case of a questionable LEO action, or even 40-some (approx. no-knock raid innocent citizen deaths to date), define it as such. And to stop gloating at, or advocating forsomeone's death.

Its not whetheryou think it makes the board look extremist. Its whether others will take it that way. The fact that John is getting e-mails asking about it is a clear indicator that others are taking it that way.

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Thundar wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

So you are alleging they did not have the proper documentation?

Are you saying that the a man shooting through his door and killing an unknown man outside his house is justified?

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We do not know about the search warrant. It is a public document that has been kept from the public, presumably by the public servant (judge) that signed it.

We do not know the circumstances around the shooting. This is all conjecture. Read my contributions to this thread. I strongly support the police. I do not support home invasion warrants at night. The police in my city are too valuable to be risked in such a manner.

I do not support the Chief of Police in Chesapeake. I think he badly mishandled the last SWAT Team SNAFU in Chesapeake. I think that there should be an independent investigation outside of the Chesapeake Police Dept. The officers deserve a fair review of the policies that let Officer Shivers to that doorstep in Portlock at night. Without such a review I fear that I will attend another memorial service that might have been prevented.

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OK... I am going to presume that they did have the warrant unless I hear otherwise. They are rather easy to obtain so I do not think this is an issue.

Serving search warrants and arrest warrants at a person's home is a necessary task that the police do. The same goes for traffic stops. Police are injured by other motorists during the stops but this does not mean you stop doing them.

To catch the bad guy... there are times when you have to collect the evidence in their house with government permission.

The death of this officer will not stop any other officers from stepping up and doing the same thing. This will only cause future search warrants to use ballistic shields and other tools to provide better protection.

Back in the day.. this was not needed... But the people are causing procedures to chance.

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leo229, I do not think it was a big black "foot" he was refering too, but a big black ram crashing through his door. At this point even that statement he made has to be taken with a grain of salt for lack of details so far. In my world, though, if I am sitting down watching tv next to my wife with me 11 month old baby girl next to us...if I have my door kicked or forced open by ANY means I am going to not let it go any further than that one way or another. God forbid I'd ever do anything to warrant an officer doing that but if I knew before had that it was a cop I certainly would cease and assist. Hell, give me a call and I'll leave the door unlocked for you j/k. Could it be said that some day all guns will be illegal and just the fact that we are posting on this board could warrant a visit from a swat team? Who knows, but the second was written to keep our government in check. That also can be interputed in many ways I suppose. Please excuse my hasty spelling and grammer