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Fatal shooting of officer leaves neighborhood numb. Portlock, CHESAPEAKEm The Virginian-Pilot

LEO 229

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jermflux wrote:
leo229, I do not think it was a big black "foot" he was refering too, but a big black ram crashing through his door. At this point even that statement he made has to be taken with a grain of salt for lack of details so far. In my world, though, if I am sitting down watching tv next to my wife with me 11 month old baby girl next to us...if I have my door kicked or forced open by ANY means I am going to not let it go any further than that one way or another. God forbid I'd ever do anything to warrant an officer doing that but if I knew before had that it was a cop I certainly would cease and assist. Hell, give me a call and I'll leave the door unlocked for you j/k. Could it be said that some day all guns will be illegal and just the fact that we are posting on this board could warrant a visit from a swat team? Who knows, but the second was written to keep our government in check. That also can be interputed in many ways I suppose. Please excuse my hasty spelling and grammer
It is one thing to shoot first and ask questions later.... :D

I guess I have expectations that are a little higher where you must be more responsible. You cannot just react... you must identify, decide and then act.

Trust me.. my grammar sucks too and many on here enjoy tell me so. I would not sweat it. ;)
 

TheApostle

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USAF_MetalChris wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
He refused to remove his hands and show them to the police The police tasered him and tried to get his left hand out but failed. Not knowing what he had in that hand and his refusal to show it caused the police to take further action.
Isn't it hard to type and hold a donut at the same time?  Maybe you should just go away.

Perhaps you should heed your own advice. Ad hominem attacks are really win an argument. :cuss:
 

deepdiver

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If someone is breaking a hole in my front door and I have not heard an announcement that it is LE, I am damn right shooting through that door at who ever is on the other side. I long ago checked sight lines with nearby properties and my house architecture to know what shooting position is required to not endanger anyone other than the person assaulting my house. There have been two such cases I am aware of in MO of homeowners shooting through doors at someone violently trying to break in and in both cases it was deemed a justified shooting (the intruder was not LEO in either case) and both were before the castle doctrine passed. With the castle doctrine in place, it is not even questionable that you can shoot someone trying to break down your door. And yes, if someone just walks into my unlocked house without invitation, I am justified in threatening or using lethal force. There is no obligation to figure out why they wandered in uninvited. Would I do that? It would be highly unlikely unless the individual was particularly threatening in some way, but would I want my soon to be wife to be more aggressive? Damn right I would. I do strongly distinguish between breaking in my door or breaking a hole in it and hard rapid banging on my door. Frantic banging on my door may be someone fleeing danger seeking help.

Both the shooter and the LEO have been deemed to have been righteous and justified by some. I agree with those who point out that we just don't know that. We don't know that the LEO had proper warrants, were properly serving those warrants, were following proper procedure or were even at the right house. Assuming there was a proper warrant, we do not know that the information used to obtain that warrant was not as bad as the information used to obtain a warrant leading to the death of a 90 year old woman trying to defend her life. We do not know that the shooter wasn't a choir boy on the surface and a drug dealing scum bag in reality who was just smart enough to never get caught. The only thing we know for sure is that a man serving his community will never go home to his wife and children and that a man who claims that he was rightfully defending his home is sitting in a jail cell instead of leading his life.
 

ufcfanvt

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TheApostle wrote:
USAF_MetalChris wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
He refused to remove his hands and show them to the police The police tasered him and tried to get his left hand out but failed. Not knowing what he had in that hand and his refusal to show it caused the police to take further action.
Isn't it hard to type and hold a donut at the same time? Maybe you should just go away.

Perhaps you should heed your own advice. Ad hominem attacks are really win an argument. :cuss:
Two words and one question:
Tear Gas
and Why don't they use it?

If someone is dangerous enough to bring in the boys for a surprise attack, why is it not worth the safety of the officers and the citizens involved to use Tear Gas to smoke them out of the house to avoid casualties.:X

To anyone thinking this isn't the best solution, I ask, why not have the SWAT team serve these warrants instead of calling them in to clean up the mess created by them? If you're invading a home w/out any verbal warning, you'd better bring the best stuff you've got! :cuss:

The fallen officer deserves our respect and mourning in my view. He and his family certainly have mine.

The policies of his force and others across the nation however deserve our deepest contempt. THEY have committed reckless endangerment!
 

ufcfanvt

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LEO 229 wrote:
Someone kicking in your door is not an immediatethreat to you if you are armed. You can always challenge them at gun point and identify if the person is armed and dangerous.
Hey look, I'm not one to call you out constantly like some others here, but you OBVIOUSLY have no real understanding of the threat posed by this situation. Please seek further police and self-defense training NOW.

FIRST, handgun rounds are NOT one shot kills. Any of you wanna-be ninjas who think you can head-shot 4 assailants crashing through doors and windows in your house in low-light, on the move w/ your heart racing are delusional at best! Keep in mind that the guys coming through your window/door/etc are ALL probably armed in some way and could start their assult on human life simultaneously and at ANY time.
To find out how you might act during this situation, I would suggest taking this course (offered all over the USA and in in select other countries):
http://www.suarezinternational.com/igfdebriefing.html

Once someone obviously intends violence to your person, or your fortifications, he has signed his own death-warrant, regardless of identification. There is not enough time to assess the threat after the guys jump through the door.
 

LEO 229

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ufcfanvt wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Someone kicking in your door is not an immediatethreat to you if you are armed. You can always challenge them at gun point and identify if the person is armed and dangerous.
Hey look, I'm not one to call you out constantly like some others here, but you OBVIOUSLY have no real understanding of the threat posed by this situation. Please seek further police and self-defense training NOW.

FIRST, handgun rounds are NOT one shot kills. Any of you wanna-be ninjas who think you can head-shot 4 assailants crashing through doors and windows in your house in low-light, on the move w/ your heart racing are delusional at best!


Once someone obviously intends violence to your person, or your fortifications, he has signed his own death-warrant, regardless of identification. There is not enough time to assess the threat after the guys jump through the door.
I am aware and understand the importance in knowing what you are shooting at and why.

The bad guy herereacted a little too quickly and shot through the door. The threat did not even enter his house. So he had no idea what was happening at his door.

He had the option to call out and advise he was armed and this may have caused the police to step back and instruct him to exit the residence.

In regards to you statement that I need some type of self defense training..... I am trained to not "shoot first and ask questions later." I am trained to observe the deadly threat before shooting. You cannot do this if they are on the other side of the door.

Scan, identify, assess, decide, act. The bad guy here did not do that... he reacted to his door being kicked in with immediate gun fire. I am sure he believed it was a drug rip in progress. But he cannot be sure until he sees who is actually at the door. The police will have their [POLICE] markings to identify who they are along with a uniformed officer.

Just because someone is kicking in your door does not mean they are going to kill you or fornicate with your wife. It could be a burglar that does not know that your home. This happens rather often by the amateur burglars. Does this mean you can kill unarmed burglars kicking in your back door?

In this case... it was the police. Had he waited and not rushed to perforate his door.... he could have observed them as they entered his house.
 

Liko81

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ixtow wrote:
This is a big part of why I don't waste my time on this forum, (save the rare just-have-to-say-it); State Hero Worship.
Your admonishment wasnot because we hero-worship State agents. It is because condemning police officers for doing their job and enforcing the law is contrary to the relationship wewant with them, which is mutual respect. Many officers see gun owners as either vigilantes or as criminals who haven't been caught and convicted yet. Either way, in most of the country we're people of interest even though we carry lawfully, and like it or not, if a cop wants to ruin your day he doesn't really need a reason, regardless of the eventual consequences for you, him, or his department. The last thing any gun owner wants is a police force that sees gun owners as a full-blown enemy. The crap you're spouting just digs the hole deeper, because blanket statements, as you've proven, are easy to make, and gun owners in general are a very convenient target. When you say that you're not sorry a cop is dead, and that statement is made known to police and the general public, is reflects poorly on every last member of this forum.When that sentiment, fed by statements like yours, reaches the civilian population you will have a choice; give up your guns because the people AND the government don't wantus cop-killing radical revolutionaries who are members of this boardto have them, or die an enemy of the state, gun-in-hand.

I have no doubt you'd say you'd die rather than give up your guns, but I don't ever want it to come to that because I'd rather live with my guns. They're not much use incold dead hands, yours or mine. If you cannot keep your tongue in check with regards to insensitive statements, then I'd rather you just left and took it up on another forum; we don'twant it here.
 

LEO 229

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Liko81 wrote:
ixtow wrote:
This is a big part of why I don't waste my time on this forum, (save the rare just-have-to-say-it); State Hero Worship.
Your admonishment wasnot because we hero-worship State agents. It is because condemning police officers for doing their job and enforcing the law is contrary to the relationship wewant with them, which is mutual respect. Many officers see gun owners as either vigilantes or as criminals who haven't been caught and convicted yet. Either way, in most of the country we're people of interest even though we carry lawfully, and like it or not, if a cop wants to ruin your day he doesn't really need a reason, regardless of the eventual consequences for you, him, or his department. The last thing any gun owner wants is a police force that sees gun owners as a full-blown enemy. The crap you're spouting just digs the hole deeper, because blanket statements, as you've proven, are easy to make, and gun owners in general are a very convenient target. When you say that you're not sorry a cop is dead, and that statement is made known to police and the general public, is reflects poorly on every last member of this forum.When that sentiment, fed by statements like yours, reaches the civilian population you will have a choice; give up your guns because the people AND the government don't wantus cop-killing radical revolutionaries who are members of this boardto have them, or die an enemy of the state, gun-in-hand.

I have no doubt you'd say you'd die rather than give up your guns, but I don't ever want it to come to that because I'd rather live with my guns. They're not much use incold dead hands, yours or mine. If you cannot keep your tongue in check with regards to insensitive statements, then I'd rather you just left and took it up on another forum; we don'twant it here.
Well said...

Just like gun owners... Not all cops are jerks. They do a job where they do their best to help the public. When one dies on the job at the hands of a bad guy... it is a sad day.

Even worse is when someone that never knewthe slain officeror anything about him can cheer thata "government agent" is dead.

Cops protect those that cannot protect themselves...... They also catch the bad guys and get them off the streets so you, your family, your car, and your house can remain free from being violated by him.

attachment.php
 

jermflux

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leo229, I respectfuly want to point out that you keep saying he shot "through" the door. How have you come by this? If we are to assume his words are honest he clearly says the guys head was coming through the door through the hole that had been bashed in. there are two videos on this page you can check out the interview:

http://wavy.com/Global/category.asp?C=2398&nav=menu45_2
 

ufcfanvt

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LEO 229 wrote:
In regards to you statement that I need some type of self defense training..... I am trained to not "shoot first and ask questions later." I am trained to observe the deadly threat before shooting. You cannot do this if they are on the other side of the door.

Scan, identify, assess, decide, act.....
I sincerely hope no one ever invades your home in this way, because whoever does is totally inside your OODA loop and will have a great advantage on you.

This "Don't ever shoot through the door" stuff sounds dangerously like the AG of the UK:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/7521.html

I hope that at least the R2KBA community could realize shooting through the door may be necessary and to have little to no sympathy for those busting up our homes' fortifications in the middle of the night.
 

nathan

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LEO 229 wrote:
Someone kicking in your door is not an immediatethreat to you if you are armed. You can always challenge them at gun point and identify if the person is armed and dangerous.
If the story was reversed and a police officer fired through the door who would you defend?

"The Columbia County district attorney ruled Friday that no criminal charges would be brought against a Portland police sergeant who fatally shot while off-duty an armed man who came pounding on his home's front door after awakening his Scappoose neighborhood in early October."
 

LEO 229

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ufcfanvt wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
In regards to you statement that I need some type of self defense training..... I am trained to not "shoot first and ask questions later." I am trained to observe the deadly threat before shooting. You cannot do this if they are on the other side of the door.

Scan, identify, assess, decide, act.....
I sincerely hope no one ever invades your home in this way, because whoever does is totally inside your OODA loop and will have a great advantage on you.

This "Don't ever shoot through the door" stuff sounds dangerously like the AG of the UK:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/7521.html

I hope that at least the R2KBA community could realize shooting through the door may be necessary and to have little to no sympathy for those busting up our homes' fortifications in the middle of the night.
I appreciate your concern for me and my family.

I can assure you that we will be taking the level of force necessary once the person has actually entered the home and we have no either choice but to take a life.

It is my decision to wait and see who is making entry so that I do not shoot the fireman responding to a 911 call for a medical emergency but goes to the wrong house.

I would not want to shoot my neighbor either who kicks in my door because the townhouse next door is on fire and he wants to be sure my pets get out safely.

But you do what you want. You go ahead and shoot at the person kicking in YOUR door.
 

LEO 229

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jermflux wrote:
leo229, I respectfuly want to point out that you keep saying he shot "through" the door. How have you come by this? If we are to assume his words are honest he clearly says the guys head was coming through the door through the hole that had been bashed in. there are two videos on this page you can check out the interview:

http://wavy.com/Global/category.asp?C=2398&nav=menu45_2
From the article posted....

"Frederick said in a jailhouse interview Friday he had no idea a police officer was on the other side of the door when he opened fire."


The keyword here is.. "the other side" so this indicates to me that the door was not opened and the officer was not in the doorway. The officer was in the "other side" of the door. Therefore.. I would believe the shot went through the door.
 

Liko81

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LEO 229 wrote:
ufcfanvt wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Someone kicking in your door is not an immediatethreat to you if you are armed. You can always challenge them at gun point and identify if the person is armed and dangerous.
Hey look, I'm not one to call you out constantly like some others here, but you OBVIOUSLY have no real understanding of the threat posed by this situation. Please seek further police and self-defense training NOW.

FIRST, handgun rounds are NOT one shot kills. Any of you wanna-be ninjas who think you can head-shot 4 assailants crashing through doors and windows in your house in low-light, on the move w/ your heart racing are delusional at best!


Once someone obviously intends violence to your person, or your fortifications, he has signed his own death-warrant, regardless of identification. There is not enough time to assess the threat after the guys jump through the door.
I am aware and understand the importance in knowing what you are shooting at and why.

The bad guy herereacted a little too quickly and shot through the door. The threat did not even enter his house. So he had no idea what was happening at his door.

He had the option to call out and advise he was armed and this may have caused the police to step back and instruct him to exit the residence.

In regards to you statement that I need some type of self defense training..... I am trained to not "shoot first and ask questions later." I am trained to observe the deadly threat before shooting. You cannot do this if they are on the other side of the door.

Scan, identify, assess, decide, act. The bad guy here did not do that... he reacted to his door being kicked in with immediate gun fire. I am sure he believed it was a drug rip in progress. But he cannot be sure until he sees who is actually at the door. The police will have their [POLICE] markings to identify who they are along with a uniformed officer.

Just because someone is kicking in your door does not mean they are going to kill you or fornicate with your wife. It could be a burglar that does not know that your home. This happens rather often by the amateur burglars. Does this mean you can kill unarmed burglars kicking in your back door?

In this case... it was the police. Had he waited and not rushed to perforate his door.... he could have observed them as they entered his house.

I see both of your points.I honestly don't think the homeowner was at fault in deciding to shoot, given thee information available. The police, in entering a home unannounced and possibly out of uniform, made very basicerrors; they should either have announced their presence or, for tactical advantage and to prevent evidence destruction,entered with absolutely no warning. Two or three kicks required to get in the door, especially unnannounced,is easy to mistake for a home invasion.

However, it is an insanely stupid decision, from both a tactical and a liability standpoint, to shoot through your door. YOU MUST IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET. If it's not required by law, then it'sone of the rules of gun handling: "always be sure of your target". You as a responsible gun owner MUST identify your target as a BG andthat the chance, if any, of hitting anything else by firing is low.If you cannot do that, then you should not fire. As itapparently took the officers a few kicks to get in, the homeowner should have retreated to a position where he could identify his targets from relative cover.

I don't know the applicable defense statutes, but in Texas since the officers were entering the home lawfully (they had a warrant), even though the homeowner did not know and could not reasonably have known that they were peace officers, the homeowner's belief that the use of deadly force is necessary cannot be presumed reasonable. The belief may still be FOUND reasonable buthe cannot hide behind the defense statute without a very clear explanation of what he believed to be happening that is supported by the facts.Since he shot an officer he will have todo sobefore a judge and jury; a grand jury is definitely going to bill him for this.
 

jermflux

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I honestly don't think my logic sensors would alow me to shoot till I could see there eyes and face. I may have a firm stance pointing towards the door but untill it splinters or flyes open I probably would hesitate. Maybe that will get me killed, I don't know. But if it was Santa histericaly needing help because his sleigh is broke orone of hisraneder got hit by a carI'd find that hard to explain to my daughter.
 

jermflux

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LEO 229 wrote:
jermflux wrote:
leo229, I respectfuly want to point out that you keep saying he shot "through" the door. How have you come by this? If we are to assume his words are honest he clearly says the guys head was coming through the door through the hole that had been bashed in. there are two videos on this page you can check out the interview:

http://wavy.com/Global/category.asp?C=2398&nav=menu45_2
From the article posted....

"Frederick said in a jailhouse interview Friday he had no idea a police officer was on the other side of the door when he opened fire."


The keyword here is.. "the other side" so this indicates to me that the door was not opened and the officer was not in the doorway. The officer was in the "other side" of the door. Therefore.. I would believe the shot went through the door.
Did you watch the actual interview? News articles are commonly known for mis or selective quotes. the interview is his words. "...he was layingon his bed when suddenly he heard his front door comeing down, he grabed his gun and he says he came out and hejust started shooting." those are the reporters words.
 

LEO 229

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nathan wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Someone kicking in your door is not an immediatethreat to you if you are armed. You can always challenge them at gun point and identify if the person is armed and dangerous.
If the story was reversed and a police officer fired through the door who would you defend?

"The Columbia County district attorney ruled Friday that no criminal charges would be brought against a Portland police sergeant who fatally shot while off-duty an armed man who came pounding on his home's front door after awakening his Scappoose neighborhood in early October."

I think the cops was wrong and should have waited. I hold him to a higher standard and due to his training he should have been able to wait till entry was made before he shot the guy.

What was the man armed with??
 

BobCav

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jermflux wrote:
I honestly don't think my logic sensors would alow me to shoot till I could see there eyes and face. I may have a firm stance pointing towards the door but untill it splinters or flyes open I probably would hesitate. Maybe that will get me killed, I don't know. But if it was Santa histericaly needing help because his sleigh is broke orone of hisraneder got hit by a carI'd find that hard to explain to my daughter.

Oh nice job ya big meanie!

Santa's%20Grave-tm.jpg
 

LEO 229

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jermflux wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
jermflux wrote:
leo229, I respectfuly want to point out that you keep saying he shot "through" the door. How have you come by this? If we are to assume his words are honest he clearly says the guys head was coming through the door through the hole that had been bashed in. there are two videos on this page you can check out the interview:

http://wavy.com/Global/category.asp?C=2398&nav=menu45_2
From the article posted....

"Frederick said in a jailhouse interview Friday he had no idea a police officer was on the other side of the door when he opened fire."


The keyword here is.. "the other side" so this indicates to me that the door was not opened and the officer was not in the doorway. The officer was in the "other side" of the door. Therefore.. I would believe the shot went through the door.
Did you watch the actual interview? News articles are commonly known for mis or selective quotes. the interview is his words. "...he was layingon his bed when suddenly he heard his front door comeing down, he grabed his gun and he says he came out and hejust started shooting." those are the reporters words.
The written article stated it the officer was on the other side of the door.

In the video interview the shooter said he saw a head coming through the bottom of the door and he shot him. I guess it was a head shot unless he shot through the door and hit him in the body. So he had to have shot at and through the door.
 
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