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Thread: question about getting conceal permits

  1. #1
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    can the finger printing be used in prosecution?

    and likewise could all the maddness with getting a passport....

    informational only. as in if it can wouldn't that be against the 5th?

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    Any government form (Federal, State, or Local) can potentially come back and bite you in the ass; make no mistake about it. Discussions about what "should" and "shouldn't" be are fine for general debates, but there's no arguing about how things actually are.

    A very clever and very -expensive- defense attorney might find a way to get certain things thrown out...maybe.

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    I take it you are asking that if your print are found at a crime scenecan theyuse theone you provided for a CWP to arrest you and then use that in court saying your prints were found at the crime scene. The answer is yes unless someone has some different information that I don't know about. Anytime you provide fingerprints to thegovernment they are eventually put into the FBI database for them to use however they want to.

    If this is wrong someone please correct me.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If you have ever been fingerprinted for a Security Clearance, Military Service, Government Employment, or a CCW permit, your prints are on file with the FBI. If you are ever dumb enough to comit a crime and you leave fingerprints behind, there is a chance you could be ID'ed through them and certainly if you are arrested for that crime. If you don't comit any crime, those prints will just sit in a file and grow old.

    I gave my first prints in 1961 for a Security Clearance and then a couple of times in '65 for the Military. Since then I have been printed numerous times for CPL's in Washington State. At no time has anyone ever come to my door and brought me any grief because the "government had my prints".

    I do, however, have a major case of red-ass over the IRS and their taking of my tax money. Now there is a cause that is more sinister than just prints.




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    No one forces you to provide prints for a voluntary document. A passport is not needed if you do not plan to leave the US. If you do not plan to carry CWP, no need for the license and the prints. Certain jobs require prints to ensure you aren't a person of interest or has issues that will be detrimental to a job (security, military, teacher, school bus driver, etc.). You don't have to work at those jobs. In short, fingerprints do not violate your federal 5th as you would voluntarily provide them.

    That being said, AFIS is on-line. Your prints are uploaded and saved to the FBI in a matter of minutes these days with the electronic system.

    I have been printed for the military (several times), cop, license holder, etc. I have no concerns about your prints magically appearing someplace. Much of that is CSI bullpuckey. However, you can bet your sweet Aunt Fanny that if your prints are located at a scene of a crime or in a stolen vehicle or so on, there will be additional legitimate investigations as to why your prints were there (case in point: I recovered a stolen car. Three sets of prints in the car. One set belonged to a car salesman who was looking at the car when the thieves tried to trade it for another car. His prints were on the rearview mirror but he had no unlawful connection to the car. Hence, the investigation cleared him).

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    The cpl is the most efficient way the gov has to fingerprint you.Cpl prints have a very high priority with theFBI. Its not like they take your prints, issue a permit andthen send them to the FBI. The FBI gets the prints first, they then cross-ref them in the data base and if no matches are found for prosecution they/youare added and then you receive the permit.

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    again, figure i need to point it out one more time... informational only, i too have been printed for a county job, and for the cpl... i was really just curious

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    I seem to recall reading something in the policy about CC permits that says the fingerprints are used to check you out then are required to be destroyed by law.

    I don't have a link and have no time to search for it.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    I used to work for the Fingerprinting section of the Washington State Patrol. Most fingerprints that are taken for the sake of applications are destroyed and deleted once they have done their duty.

    I know that we deleted/destroyed prints for things such as State Job background checks, teacher applications, Security Guard applications, etc... I'm fairly certain CPL backgrounds were tossed too.

    Actually, I think the only prints that really get kept are the ones that were printed for criminal reasons.

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    Crackajack wrote:
    I used to work for the Fingerprinting section of the Washington State Patrol. Most fingerprints that are taken for the sake of applications are destroyed and deleted once they have done their duty.

    I know that we deleted/destroyed prints for things such as State Job background checks, teacher applications, Security Guard applications, etc... I'm fairly certain CPL backgrounds were tossed too.

    Actually, I think the only prints that really get kept are the ones that were printed for criminal reasons.
    That's locally. The Feds, AKA the FBI, never toss anything unless required by law and not all the time then.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Crackajack wrote:
    I used to work for the Fingerprinting section of the Washington State Patrol. Most fingerprints that are taken for the sake of applications are destroyed and deleted once they have done their duty.

    I know that we deleted/destroyed prints for things such as State Job background checks, teacher applications, Security Guard applications, etc... I'm fairly certain CPL backgrounds were tossed too.

    Actually, I think the only prints that really get kept are the ones that were printed for criminal reasons.
    That's locally. The Feds, AKA the FBI, never toss anything unless required by law and not all the time then.
    True, but since you get your permit from local LE the FBI won't have your prints.

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    heresolong wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Crackajack wrote:
    I used to work for the Fingerprinting section of the Washington State Patrol. Most fingerprints that are taken for the sake of applications are destroyed and deleted once they have done their duty.

    I know that we deleted/destroyed prints for things such as State Job background checks, teacher applications, Security Guard applications, etc... I'm fairly certain CPL backgrounds were tossed too.

    Actually, I think the only prints that really get kept are the ones that were printed for criminal reasons.
    That's locally. The Feds, AKA the FBI, never toss anything unless required by law and not all the time then.
    True, but since you get your permit from local LE the FBI won't have your prints.
    When the Feds recieve prints to check, like in the case of a CPL and they don't have those prints on file, they add them to their data base for future reference. So the next time they get those prints, they will have them. So once your prints get to the FBI, they have them forever. They've had mine since 1965 and yours sincethe first time they were asked to check yours.

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    The FBI keeps all of the prints submitted to them. They do not and have not destroyed them. I have a hiccup in one of my print files due to an idiot secretary for my first chief who classified my prints as for criminal records, not for criminal justice hire. I think I have 5 different print filesnow between the military, security, CWP and LE stuff.

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    Morris wrote:
    The FBI keeps all of the prints submitted to them. They do not and have not destroyed them. I have a hiccup in one of my print files due to an idiot secretary for my first chief who classified my prints as for criminal records, not for criminal justice hire. I think I have 5 different print filesnow between the military, security, CWP and LE stuff.
    Didn't think they got those prints submitted to them? Why would the state patrol need to send prints to the FBI? They can just run our prints on the AFIS (Automated Fingerprint ID) system and either get a match or get no match. The FBI has no reason ever to actually receive those prints and seems like if they did it would just slow down their system by adding millions of sets of fingerprints that aren't there for any particular reason.

    I agree with you that if you are having your prints taken for some reason that requires that the FBI get a set (I had a TS clearance in the military and I believe the FBI did that check for the military) then they would have my prints on file. I don't think that they would for other reasons such as an agency running a check.

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    I dunno. I parrot what my tech tells me. When I do my QIDs, I know it's run local AFIS and federal.

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    Morris wrote:
    I dunno. I parrot what my tech tells me. When I do my QIDs, I know it's run local AFIS and federal.
    Right. But AFIS doesn't actually give the prints to the feds, it just compares it to their print database.

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    Crackajack wrote:
    I know that we deleted/destroyed prints for things such as State Job background checks, teacher applications, Security Guard applications, etc... I'm fairly certain CPL backgrounds were tossed too.
    Deleted, HA! Yea, thats what they want you to think!!

    Gotta melt them off like in Men in Black.

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    If you don't comit any crimes and leave prints, why are you worried whether the Government has them? They have your Social Security Number, know how much money you get paid at work, know where you live and know about those guns you bought from a Dealer. Unless you expect to become a criminal someday why worry?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    amlevin wrote:
    If you don't comit any crimes and leave prints, why are you worried whether the Government has them? They have your Social Security Number, know how much money you get paid at work, know where you live and know about those guns you bought from a Dealer. Unless you expect to become a criminal someday why worry?
    i was curious

    the whole in order to exercise someone's second they have to give up the fifth.

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    Well you only give up your fifth if you are going to incriminate yourself with your prints because they are already on file from a crime scene. If one is that dumb then they deserve to be caught.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    joeroket wrote:
    Well you only give up your fifth if you are going to incriminate yourself with your prints because they are already on file from a crime scene. If one is that dumb then they deserve to be caught.
    that's not the point though

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    uncoolperson wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    If you don't comit any crimes and leave prints, why are you worried whether the Government has them? They have your Social Security Number, know how much money you get paid at work, know where you live and know about those guns you bought from a Dealer. Unless you expect to become a criminal someday why worry?
    i was curious

    the whole in order to exercise someone's second they have to give up the fifth.
    Thats what it sounded like you were talking about in this post. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If I understand uncoolperson's point correctly, that one is giving up his 5th Amendment rights by giving prints to get a permit, I'm not so sure this is the case. Prints are just prints until you leave them at a crime scene. Then they become evidence. If you were to carry this logic farther, then no picture would ever be legal. After all how many times are photos from ID 6-Packs or School Annuals used as "evidence"?

    (Fifth Amendment Text)

    "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

    If you are not a criminal, giving your prints is not "being a wittness agains himself" as there is no crime charged. If you ARE a criminal, you are not allowed to own or carry a gun anyway so the whole issue is moot.

    To really "nit-pick", any criminal that left his prints could make the claim that the prints were his "property"and subject to the above prohibition against providing witness (evidence against himself). See how far that argument flies.


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    joeroket wrote:
    uncoolperson wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    If you don't comit any crimes and leave prints, why are you worried whether the Government has them? They have your Social Security Number, know how much money you get paid at work, know where you live and know about those guns you bought from a Dealer. Unless you expect to become a criminal someday why worry?
    i was curious

    the whole in order to exercise someone's second they have to give up the fifth.
    Thats what it sounded like you were talking about in this post. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
    by "thats not the point though" i was refering to "If one is that dumb then they deserve to be caught."

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    amlevin wrote:
    If I understand uncoolperson's point correctly, that one is giving up his 5th Amendment rights by giving prints to get a permit, I'm not so sure this is the case. Prints are just prints until you leave them at a crime scene. Then they become evidence. If you were to carry this logic farther, then no picture would ever be legal. After all how many times are photos from ID 6-Packs or School Annuals used as "evidence"?

    (Fifth Amendment Text)

    "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

    If you are not a criminal, giving your prints is not "being a wittness agains himself" as there is no crime charged. If you ARE a criminal, you are not allowed to own or carry a gun anyway so the whole issue is moot.

    To really "nit-pick", any criminal that left his prints could make the claim that the prints were his "property"and subject to the above prohibition against providing witness (evidence against himself). See how far that argument flies.

    I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

    and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

    lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

    since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

    now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

    now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

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