question about getting conceal permits

Well you only give up your fifth if you are going to incriminate yourself with your prints because they are already on file from a crime scene. If one is that dumb then they deserve to be caught.

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amlevin wrote:

If you don't comit any crimes and leave prints, why are you worried whether the Government has them? They have your Social Security Number, know how much money you get paid at work, know where you live and know about those guns you bought from a Dealer. Unless you expect to become a criminal someday why worry?

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i was curious

the whole in order to exercise someone's second they have to give up the fifth.

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uncoolperson wrote:

amlevin wrote:

If you don't comit any crimes and leave prints, why are you worried whether the Government has them? They have your Social Security Number, know how much money you get paid at work, know where you live and know about those guns you bought from a Dealer. Unless you expect to become a criminal someday why worry?

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i was curious

the whole in order to exercise someone's second they have to give up the fifth.

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Thats what it sounded like you were talking about in this post. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

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If I understand uncoolperson's point correctly, that one is giving up his 5th Amendment rights by giving prints to get a permit, I'm not so sure this is the case. Prints are just prints until you leave them at a crime scene. Then they become evidence. If you were to carry this logic farther, then no picture would ever be legal. After all how many times are photos from ID 6-Packs or School Annuals used as "evidence"?

(Fifth Amendment Text)

[size="+1"]"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[/size]"

If you are not a criminal, giving your prints is not "being a wittness agains himself" as there is no crime charged. If you ARE a criminal, you are not allowed to own or carry a gun anyway so the whole issue is moot.

To really "nit-pick", any criminal that left his prints could make the claim that the prints were his "property"and subject to the above prohibition against providing witness (evidence against himself). See how far that argument flies.

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amlevin wrote:

If I understand uncoolperson's point correctly, that one is giving up his 5th Amendment rights by giving prints to get a permit, I'm not so sure this is the case. Prints are just prints until you leave them at a crime scene. Then they become evidence. If you were to carry this logic farther, then no picture would ever be legal. After all how many times are photos from ID 6-Packs or School Annuals used as "evidence"?

(Fifth Amendment Text)

[size=+1]"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[/size]"

If you are not a criminal, giving your prints is not "being a wittness agains himself" as there is no crime charged. If you ARE a criminal, you are not allowed to own or carry a gun anyway so the whole issue is moot.

To really "nit-pick", any criminal that left his prints could make the claim that the prints were his "property"and subject to the above prohibition against providing witness (evidence against himself). See how far that argument flies.

Click to expand...

I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

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amlevin wrote:

If I understand uncoolperson's point correctly, that one is giving up his 5th Amendment rights by giving prints to get a permit, I'm not so sure this is the case. Prints are just prints until you leave them at a crime scene. Then they become evidence. If you were to carry this logic farther, then no picture would ever be legal. After all how many times are photos from ID 6-Packs or School Annuals used as "evidence"?

(Fifth Amendment Text)

[size=+1]"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[/size]"

If you are not a criminal, giving your prints is not "being a wittness agains himself" as there is no crime charged. If you ARE a criminal, you are not allowed to own or carry a gun anyway so the whole issue is moot.

To really "nit-pick", any criminal that left his prints could make the claim that the prints were his "property"and subject to the above prohibition against providing witness (evidence against himself). See how far that argument flies.

Click to expand...

I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

Click to expand...

I could barely get the cops to come to the scene. I could NOT get them to take a print, even when I offered to let them take the CD and not return it to me.

I could not get the cops to even look at the car 2 blocks away that had a broken window and missing stereo. I found that car while looking around for evidence (things missing from my car).

So hypothetically speaking, buy a lottery ticket. You have a better chance of picked.

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uncoolperson wrote:

amlevin wrote:

If I understand uncoolperson's point correctly, that one is giving up his 5th Amendment rights by giving prints to get a permit, I'm not so sure this is the case. Prints are just prints until you leave them at a crime scene. Then they become evidence. If you were to carry this logic farther, then no picture would ever be legal. After all how many times are photos from ID 6-Packs or School Annuals used as "evidence"?

(Fifth Amendment Text)

[size=+1]"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[/size]"

If you are not a criminal, giving your prints is not "being a wittness agains himself" as there is no crime charged. If you ARE a criminal, you are not allowed to own or carry a gun anyway so the whole issue is moot.

To really "nit-pick", any criminal that left his prints could make the claim that the prints were his "property"and subject to the above prohibition against providing witness (evidence against himself). See how far that argument flies.

Click to expand...

I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

Click to expand...

Let's say, hypothetically (all the CSI Miami crap aside):

The last time my car was broken into the thief left AWSOME prints on a CD.

I could barely get the cops to come to the scene. I could NOT get them to take a print, even when I offered to let them take the CD and not return it to me.

I could not get the cops to even look at the car 2 blocks away that had a broken window and missing stereo. I found that car while looking around for evidence (things missing from my car).

So hypothetically speaking, buy a lottery ticket. You have a better chance of picked.

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A month latter he hit my car again. I was waitingand after stuffing a shotgun in his face he moved out of the county. :X

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No one should be surprised that the cops don't bother with trying to catch a guy who breaks into cars. There's no glory in that. I have had the same experience. The cop even told me they were pretty sure who was doing it. But he also made it plain they weren't really interested in catching him. A month latter he hit my car again. I was waitingand after stuffing a shotgun in his face he moved out of the county. :X

Click to expand...

I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

Click to expand...

I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

Click to expand...

uncoolperson wrote:

I'm saying what if me (hypothetical... can't stress it enough), was stupid back in the day... ehh... say i stole a box of ammo out of someone's mail box.

and now (we'd hope), my finger prints are on file associated with this crime.

lets go with 7 years later i've grown out of that, and want a cpl ccp or whatever we call them in washington (too lazy to look at mine). and a passport so i can travel into canada.

since screwing with the mail is a felony, i'm guessing the prints would get to the fbi... for the sake of making it big, lets pretend i ripped off of a mail drop off box... .just to make sure it's big.

now to get a cwp or a passport (do they need it for that?) i need to submit my prints to be checked out to make sure i haven't been convicted of some crime.

now wouldn't using this submittion to charge me of some crime be against the 5th?

Click to expand...

First of all you are watching CSI-xxxx too much. turn the channel to the Road Runner or Bugs Bunny. If they had prints from a crime scene on file somewhere and for some unknown reason were to dig them up and try to match them later to current prints, maybe you need to quit watching Cold Case also, and yours pops up as a match,you are screwed. Johnny Cochran is dead so I don't know who to call.You could try to get it them thrown out on 5A grounds but I would seriously doubt it. However you can be assured that it will go all the way to the U SSupreme Court before getting them thrown out.

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