9mm vs .45ACP effectiveness explained

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professionaladventurer wrote:

I sure do, I did the test (or rather a bunch or tests) SS196 and 44 layers of Kevlar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KVcWqxi0EQ

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Your tests apparently demonstrated that it would penetrate 44 layers of Kevlar, but I am not certain that it would penetrate a Class III vest worn by a human. I am not totally dismissing your tests as they are interesting but there is a reason that performance tests are standardized. My question is whetheryour tests comply with NIJ testing standards for a complete vest. http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

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The tests involve a flesh like backing as kevlar needs such a backing to function properly.

Also, most LVL IV setups are plates and kevlar, and the plates are only lvl III without the supporting vest.

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Here are some easy to use formulas for computing muzzle energy.

Velocity squared x bullet weight in grains x .0000022104= ft. lbs. of energy.

Velocity squared x bullet weight in grains divided by 450240= ft. lbs. of energy.

The two formulas are within 1% or less of each other so for every day use are interchangeable.

Out of my Glock 17 the Cor-Bon ammo I use for self defense is traveling 1340 ft. per. sec., according to my chronograph. So--using formula # 1 this is about 454 ft. lbs. of energy.

G.I. hard ball going 830 ft. per sec. out of my gov. model gives 351 ft. lbs. using formula # 2.

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Nutczak wrote:

Slugs can be shot from any size choke on a shotgun, the slug has ridges on its edgethat resemble rifling, these are there so the slug can compress properly if fired through a tight choke. Many people feel the rifling ridges that are cast into slugs is only there to impose a stabilising spin to the projectile, well it has another purpose too, and that is so it can fit through a tight choke.

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Foster style (rifled) slugs were not constructed in a manor with the intention that they be fired through a full choke. It is not the purpose of their shape. It is a fortunate secondary attribute for those not sharp enough to use the proper choke size. Just because some peopleget away with it does not mean that it is a good idea. That squeezing will scrub velocity from the slug and will make it much less accurate.

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thx997303 wrote:

Really now? And what may I ask, are these slugs made out of?

If these jacketed slugs are made the same way a normal jacketed round is made, then they indeed will squeeze through a choke.

It's called being swaged down. The lead is displaced and makes the round longer.

And the jacket would normally be made of copper or brass, which will definitely swage down.

Now, whether they would swage down at safe pressures and fire fine or not, I cannot say. I've never tried it.

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Then you just invalidated everything you said before that. Call Brenneke and tell them they're wrong. Better yet, try it and post a video.

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Mike_Hawke wrote:

thx997303 wrote:

Really now? And what may I ask, are these slugs made out of?

If these jacketed slugs are made the same way a normal jacketed round is made, then they indeed will squeeze through a choke.

It's called being swaged down. The lead is displaced and makes the round longer.

And the jacket would normally be made of copper or brass, which will definitely swage down.

Now, whether they would swage down at safe pressures and fire fine or not, I cannot say. I've never tried it.

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Then you just invalidated everything you said before that. Call Brenneke and tell them they're wrong. Better yet, try it and post a video.

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I guess you are the eggspurt. So tell me, how long have you been casting and swaging the bullets you've been reloading?

What BHN do you recommend I heat treat my slugs to? Should I water drop or air cool?

What size should I size the slugs if I intend to shoot them from a rifled barrel?

What percentage of tin should I add to Wheel weight lead alloy?

What does antimony do to my alloy?

What does tin do to my alloy?

What does a gas check do?

What is obturation?

What powder should I use in my 12 ga?

What is a 218 Bee?

What company can I get a good swaging press from?

Lemme guess at your response.............STRAWMAN?

If you can't understand what I was saying then you aren't worth the electrons inconvenienced while sending this post.

/argument.

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thx997303 wrote:

Mike_Hawke wrote:

thx997303 wrote:

Really now? And what may I ask, are these slugs made out of?

If these jacketed slugs are made the same way a normal jacketed round is made, then they indeed will squeeze through a choke.

It's called being swaged down. The lead is displaced and makes the round longer.

And the jacket would normally be made of copper or brass, which will definitely swage down.

Now, whether they would swage down at safe pressures and fire fine or not, I cannot say. I've never tried it.

Click to expand...

Then you just invalidated everything you said before that. Call Brenneke and tell them they're wrong. Better yet, try it and post a video.

Click to expand...

I guess you are the eggspurt. So tell me, how long have you been casting and swaging the bullets you've been reloading?

What BHN do you recommend I heat treat my slugs to? Should I water drop or air cool?

What size should I size the slugs if I intend to shoot them from a rifled barrel?

What percentage of tin should I add to Wheel weight lead alloy?

What does antimony do to my alloy?

What does tin do to my alloy?

What does a gas check do?

What is obturation?

What powder should I use in my 12 ga?

What is a 218 Bee?

What company can I get a good swaging press from?

Lemme guess at your response.............STRAWMAN?

If you can't understand what I was saying then you aren't worth the electrons inconvenienced while sending this post.

/argument.

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You don't suppose..... nah you're just playing 20 questions, right?

Yata hey

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Naw, 12 questions

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tarzan1888 wrote:

I had a guy tell me once that a .45 ACP had some almost mystical power, so that if you shot someone with one with one, it knocked them down, no mater where you hit them.

To illustrate his point he told a story of a guy who was being threatened by this giant of a man.  The victim shot at this giant with his .45 and the big guy went down.

the went over to the downed assailant and found him unconscious.   the only mark on him was where the .45 had nicked his finger.

 

He had a straight face when he told me this and he really believed it.  :what:

 

Tarzan

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Maybe it was Chuck Norris' .45?

On a more serious note, the new Showtime show, "Lock N Load" has a scene in which the host/gun store clerk addresses 9mm vs. .45. issue by whipping out a pair of huge and silly looking sneakers, and telling the prospective buyers, "the .45 acp will blow the guy right out of these." Or words to that effect.

Edit: removal of unintentional partial word at bottom (Negligent typing?)

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thx997303 wrote:

Mike_Hawke wrote:

thx997303 wrote:

Really now? And what may I ask, are these slugs made out of?

If these jacketed slugs are made the same way a normal jacketed round is made, then they indeed will squeeze through a choke.

It's called being swaged down. The lead is displaced and makes the round longer.

And the jacket would normally be made of copper or brass, which will definitely swage down.

Now, whether they would swage down at safe pressures and fire fine or not, I cannot say. I've never tried it.

Click to expand...

Then you just invalidated everything you said before that. Call Brenneke and tell them they're wrong. Better yet, try it and post a video.

Click to expand...

I guess you are the eggspurt. So tell me, how long have you been casting and swaging the bullets you've been reloading?

What BHN do you recommend I heat treat my slugs to? Should I water drop or air cool?

What size should I size the slugs if I intend to shoot them from a rifled barrel?

What percentage of tin should I add to Wheel weight lead alloy?

What does antimony do to my alloy?

What does tin do to my alloy?

What does a gas check do?

What is obturation?

What powder should I use in my 12 ga?

What is a 218 Bee?

What company can I get a good swaging press from?

Lemme guess at your response.............STRAWMAN?

If you can't understand what I was saying then you aren't worth the electrons inconvenienced while sending this post.

/argument.

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Good guess. The fact that you load your own rounds is totally irrelevant. I change my own oil, does that mean I know every structural limitation of the engine?



(800) 753 9733


They're very friendly. I'm sure they'd love it if an expert like yourself corrected their misunderstandings. What does a manufacturer know?It takes a home reloader to really understand how a round works. :lol:

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Excuse me, but brenneke isn't the one who made any claims. You are.

I personally "manufacture" every round I shoot out of every gun I own.

Your argument makes no sense.

Again,

/argument.

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Here, I snipped this directly from the Brenneke site; here in the FAQ's http://www.brennekeusa.com/startlink5.html

Question: Why do your slugs work with choked barrels? What do the ribs do?
Answer: In 1898 Wilhelm Brenneke invented the modern shotgun slug. The most revolutionary aspect of his invention were the ribs. They make it possible to shoot any of our lead slugs from any choked barrel, regardless of choke size. The ribs are compressed when they pass through the choke, and excess lead is squeezed into the gaps between the ribs. There is no danger to the shooter, to the gun or to bystanders, and no wear and tear on the gun. Excellent accuracy is retained. In 1992, we added minor improvements which resulted in even higher accuracy: five-shot groups of under 2" at 50 yards are possible. Depending upon the case length (2¾" or 3") you can effectively use our slugs up to 100 yard ranges. Note that our SuperSabot and our Super Magnum are designed only for use cylindrical full-rifled barrels, and must not be fired from any type of choked barrel.

I will attempt to answer ThX's questions even though I do not cast or swage my own projectiles.Plas I do notuse projectiles that are not jacketed anyways.
Casting lead without the proper safety equipment can cause mental difficulties, so please check you exhaust system to make sure you are not getting contaminated.

What BHN do you recommend I heat treat my slugs to? Should I water drop or air cool?

What size should I size the slugs if I intend to shoot them from a rifled barrel?
to SAAMI Specs

What percentage of tin should I add to Wheel weight lead alloy?
It depends on what the starting composition or hardness and what you want your target hardness to be

What does antimony do to my alloy?
Makes it harder, it is usually used less than 2% by volume

What does tin do to my alloy?
I believe it keeps casting sizes better and makes forless shrinkage in the cast projectile

What does a gas check do?
Keeps the propellant gases from eroding the lead, this can also be achieved by reworking your load with a more appropriate powder


What is obturation?
Who knows, It does not apply to anything I do, So I am not familiar with the term

What powder should I use in my 12 ga?
Any modern shotgun/pistol powder, and it depends on the loads you are working with

What is a 218 Bee?
Small centerfire rilfe cartidge that is considered obsolete.

What company can I get a good swaging press from?
I believe Lyman has swaging presses, and another company from CO has a hydraulic swaging press that can also be used for transforming cartridges from one caliber to another, For instance If I want to make my own 22-250 brass I an start with 30-06 or .308 and use the press and dies to form my own brass

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The questions were actually asked not expecting any specific answer. It was just a way to show that Mike Hawke has no expertise in the area as he has dodged the questions entirely.

Now that you have shut down Mike Hawke's argument using the same experts he so readily cites, I will give the answers to the questions. Very nice attempt to answer the questions btw.

Bold Italics mine, cause you already used black, red, and blue. :lol:
Nutczak wrote:

Here, I snipped this directly from the Brenneke site; here in the FAQ's http://www.brennekeusa.com/startlink5.html

Question: Why do your slugs work with choked barrels? What do the ribs do?
Answer: In 1898 Wilhelm Brenneke invented the modern shotgun slug. The most revolutionary aspect of his invention were the ribs. They make it possible to shoot any of our lead slugs from any choked barrel, regardless of choke size. The ribs are compressed when they pass through the choke, and excess lead is squeezed into the gaps between the ribs. There is no danger to the shooter, to the gun or to bystanders, and no wear and tear on the gun. Excellent accuracy is retained. In 1992, we added minor improvements which resulted in even higher accuracy: five-shot groups of under 2" at 50 yards are possible. Depending upon the case length (2¾" or 3") you can effectively use our slugs up to 100 yard ranges. Note that our SuperSabot and our Super Magnum are designed only for use cylindrical full-rifled barrels, and must not be fired from any type of choked barrel.

I will attempt to answer ThX's questions even though I do not cast or swage my own projectiles.Plas I do notuse projectiles that are not jacketed anyways.
Casting lead without the proper safety equipment can cause mental difficulties, so please check you exhaust system to make sure you are not getting contaminated.


What BHN do you recommend I heat treat my slugs to? Should I water drop or air cool?

BHN is a measure of hardness, and hardness should be determined by application.

What size should I size the slugs if I intend to shoot them from a rifled barrel?
to SAAMI Specs

Jacked bullets should be bought at the nominal size for caliber, lead rounds should be sized .001-.002" over the groove diameter of the barrel.


What percentage of tin should I add to Wheel weight lead alloy?
It depends on what the starting composition or hardness and what you want your target hardness to be

Wheel weight alloy general consists of .5% tin. It varies but is usually very close to .5% In casting it has been found that anything over 2% tin is where you reach the law of diminishing returns.

What does antimony do to my alloy?
Makes it harder, it is usually used less than 2% by volume

Antimony does indeed harden the alloy, but more than that it enables the alloy to be more effectively Heat treated. There is 3-4% in wheel weight alloy, and below 4% lengthens the time the alloy takes to reach it's final Hardness. (age hardening)

What does tin do to my alloy?
I believe it keeps casting sizes better and makes forless shrinkage in the cast projectile

It does indeed make for less shrinkage, it also lowers the surface tension and melting temperature of the alloy.

What does a gas check do?
Keeps the propellant gases from eroding the lead, this can also be achieved by reworking your load with a more appropriate powder

This is correct, though there is some debate as to whether the gas check actually seals the bore, or scrapes lead from the bore as well.


What is obturation?
Who knows, It does not apply to anything I do, So I am not familiar with the term

In this case, obturation is the base of the bullet being slightly expanded by the pressure of firing to fully seal the bore. Whether or not this is wanted in modern smokeless powder weapons, is a matter of debate. This feature was successfully used in muzzleloading rifles as the projectile could be made smaller than the rifling and the hollow base of the projectile made for much faster reloading.

What powder should I use in my 12 ga?
Any modern shotgun/pistol powder, and it depends on the loads you are working with

Agreed.

What is a 218 Bee?
Small centerfire rilfe cartidge that is considered obsolete.

Yes, it is a small centerfire cartridge made by reforming 22 hornet cases. It is very expensive if you can find commercial ammo for it.


What company can I get a good swaging press from?
I believe Lyman has swaging presses, and another company from CO has a hydraulic swaging press that can also be used for transforming cartridges from one caliber to another, For instance If I want to make my own 22-250 brass I an start with 30-06 or .308 and use the press and dies to form my own brass

This is correct, though I guess I should have defined what sort of swaging press I was talking about. Those are indeed swaging presses, and you are correct on the use. I was actually talking about bullet swaging presses, which can be purchased from Corbin and C&H.

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I'm no expert for sure, but I never claimed to be and I do at least have some semblance of an idea what I am talking about.

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When it really gets down to it, all this is actually irrelevant...

It's all about shot placement.

A .22 is every bit as lethal as a 10mm, if the shot is placed effectively. Go talk to some EMTs, ER surgeons and coroners and ask THEM what most of the DOA gunshot victims are shot with.

I guarantee the average answer WON'T be anything bigger than a .32...

Don't get me wrong, I carry a .45acp for defensive purposes, NOT a .22. But when push comes to shove, it's ALL about shot placement.

Any other argument is just covering for sloppy shooting, be it because of stress, lack of practice, unpredictable tactical situations, or difficulty in acquiring the target in a fast-motion defensive situation, ALL of which are valid problems in a high-stress defensive situation, and issues we should all be working to overcome through practice and training.

In the right hands, a #2 pencil is every bit as lethal as the biggest, hottest, most effectively expanding round.

It's ALL about shot placement...

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Nutczak wrote:

Here, I snipped this directly from the Brenneke site; here in the FAQ's http://www.brennekeusa.com/startlink5.html

Question: Why do your slugs work with choked barrels? What do the ribs do?
Answer: In 1898 Wilhelm Brenneke invented the modern shotgun slug. The most revolutionary aspect of his invention were the ribs. They make it possible to shoot any of our lead slugs from any choked barrel, regardless of choke size. The ribs are compressed when they pass through the choke, and excess lead is squeezed into the gaps between the ribs. There is no danger to the shooter, to the gun or to bystanders, and no wear and tear on the gun. Excellent accuracy is retained. In 1992, we added minor improvements which resulted in even higher accuracy: five-shot groups of under 2" at 50 yards are possible. Depending upon the case length (2¾" or 3") you can effectively use our slugs up to 100 yard ranges. Note that our SuperSabot and our Super Magnum are designed only for use cylindrical full-rifled barrels, and must not be fired from any type of choked barrel.

Click to expand...

Selective highlighting is great. Let's look at the last line of that paragraph:

Note that our SuperSabot and our Super Magnum are designed only for use cylindrical full-rifled barrels, and must not be fired from any type of choked barrel.

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I happen to have a box sitting right in front of me...







I called, and asked them, "why is that - 'rifled barrels only'?" The answer was, as above, that the slugs are NOT designed to fit through a choke both in size and hardness of the plating, WILL NOT fit through a choke, and SHOULD NOT be fired through a choke. Therefore, due to liability reasons,they have decided to label the boxes "rifled barrel only" because rifled barrels don't accept chokes, and therefore don't pose a danger of user stupidity.

Again, any disputes, call them. Or, better yet, blast away on the full choke and post the video.

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Good job cherry picking TWO slugs that can't be fired in a choked barrel.

Note they specify that any of their LEAD slugs can be fired through any choke.

You are trying to prove a rule by citing an exception.

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thx997303 wrote:

Good job cherry picking TWO slugs that can't be fired in a choked barrel.

Note they specify that any of their LEAD slugs can be fired through any choke.

You are trying to prove a rule by citing an exception.

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No, retard. My original statement was that NOT ALL slugs can be fired through achoke, which constrasted with your implied blanket statement that ALL slugs could be fired through a choke. I don't have to cherry pick anything. A single slug in existance that can't fire through a choke is enough to prove my statement correct and yourgeneralization false.



Mike_Hawke:

Not all slugs are designed to allow firing through a choke

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I know you're bill-badass home reloader and all that, but let's try to be accurate and avoid generalizations that might lead to someone getting hurt.

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AWDStylez? Is that you? :lol:

As an aside, I did misconstrue your original statement, but I do not appreciate the personal attacks.

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professionaladventurer wrote:

If you don't know most of the BANG/CRACK from your weapon is from the GAS coming out of the barrel not the bullet.
SNIP...

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Actually this is not correct.

A visit to the other end of the target range while people are shooting will prove to anyone interested in knowing, that the "crack" of a bullet is in fact caused by a bullet exceeding the speed of sound not the gas from firing. The "BOOM" is caused by gas expansion as the bulled exits the barrel.

This is why weapons with suppressors must use subsonic ammo if they are to be effectively quieted. I say quieted because they still do make a fair amount of noise, Even the old High Standard .22 used by SAS and early CIA operatives fitted with a full length suppressor and loaded with .22 shorts still make a loud pop when fired. It is just quieter than larger calibers firing faster bullets.

Liko81 wrote:

...SNIP
In addition, the pressure of a slug shot is generally higher as the solid mass filling the bore keeps more gas behind the projectile than a clump of shot, so the breech must be rated for slugs and not all shotguns are
SNIP...

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This is also not quite correct. In modern shotgun ammo there is a plastic shot cup holding the shot load. Generally there is a plastic cup that holds the slug in a slug load as well. These cups are close to bore size and designed to expand slightly to provide a gas seal against the bore walls. So there is no gas leakage around the load because of the loose shot. There are generally higher pressures with slug loads but this is because of the nominally greater mass of typical slug loads as compared to shot loads. The greater mass means higher inertia and higher pressure.

Regards

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people who argue 9mm vs .45 are just looking for something to debate..........i own both calibers. i have shot both calibers into balistics gel.........both rounds in FMJ will over penitrate and go striaght through a target...........has nothing to do with the cal its because FMJ is a hole puncher and nothing more.

the .45 is a very effective caliber.........but so is the 9mm. anyone who thinks 9mm is not can just ask any of the people killed yearly by the 9mm round if it is effective or not. they would get the answer yes if the people could still speak.

truth is the 9mm HPJ expands to the size if not larger than a .45 FMJ......meaning it will also stop inside the body and yield alot of energy when it does. therefore making it virtualy equal to the .45

only upside the 9mm has is it is cheaper and you can carry more of them in a mag. otherwise.......they are equally effective and useful.