Mistaken for a Bank Robber while CCing in Tacoma

jack · Jan 25, 2008

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Personally I would have to go a head and verify that there was in fact a robbery. I flat out don't trust the police. They have lied too many times to too many citizens.

1) File a freedom of information act request

2) check crime reports and even call the bank branch if you must

Even in a case with a potential robbery suspect, I object to guns being pointed at a citizen. Pointed in the general direction with the figure outside the trigger guard, OK.

With the accidental dischargekilling of Dr. Salvatore Culosi by Fairfax County Police, along with the fact that police accidentally kill 330 people annually, I don't believe the police should be able to point a firearm at a citizen ever until they intend to shoot.

The police have the advantage in numbers (in most situations) and are acting under the color of law. Should they be at the tactical disadvantage in a few cases by having their finger off the trigger, that's preferred to a citizen being accidentally killed 330 times per year (on average). The officer accepted the job andit is totally acceptable forthemto be at greater risk than a citizen merely out about his business.

Dave_pro2a · Jan 25, 2008

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expvideo wrote:

I completely disagree. Under normal circumstances you are correct, but in this case he actually looked like the felony suspect.

Allegedly.

How often has a cop lied to a member here about WA gun laws, in an attempt to force a behavior change? I've read many accounts of that nature...

"You can't open carry, it's illegal" -- straight from the mouths of blue. "Yes this is the 3rd time I've stopped you for this offense, the last 2 times you were legal and my boss yelled at me but dammit I'll just keep lying about probable cause and harass you anyways."

This traffic stop cop knew he had to cover his butt in order to go from "you're not under arrest" to "disarm him, seize his identification, slap cuffs on him, jerk him out of his car, run the serial number of his gun, etc."

Was the victim (the OP) actually in a car that matched the description of the one leaving the bank robbery scene?

Was his clothing very similar in design and color?

Was he wearing the same mask, so the cops could identify skin color, hair color, etc and match him to the description from the bank robbery.

Was he the same general heigth and weight -- which is really easy to tell when a guy is sitting in a car and driving by at 5 or 10 MPH.

I suspect an unconstitutional 'fishing net' was being used. Or an unconstitutional racial profiling approach -- you're near the bank and you're WHITE! Hands up!

I suspect the cop lied. Color me jaded.

ConditionThree · Jan 25, 2008

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

TP1: "I've put your knife and spare mag in your cup holder, and the pistol is in it's holster underneath the seat. Do me a favor and drive away a little ways before you put it back on your ankle. There's still a bunch of cops around, and we can get a little nervous if we see a civilian messing around with a gun in their hands."

Yeah, only the only people 'profesional' enough handle a firearm are policemen. The OP had already submitted to a search where consent was not obtained, allowed the police to disarm him and was polite enough to cooperate without complaint- and he cannot reholster his firearm without the responding policemen being jumpy?

Sorry, but this is in my opnion, more of the "US" versus "Them" bullsh*tthat makes policemen MORE equal than citizens. Like has been recommended above, I would FOIA the incident to eliminate any possibility that someone was just covering their ass after putting the grab on the wrong guy.

KBCraig · Jan 25, 2008

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jack wrote:

the fact that police accidentally kill 330 people annually,

That little factoid would be useful with a cite. Where'd you get it?

G20-IWB24/7 · Jan 25, 2008

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Here's a what if?>>>>

So lets say I was an accomplice to my brother robbing this bank. I park about 300 yards from the bank, sheilding his vehicle from view with my GMC 1500 Van which is what I was driving. He makes the robbery, runs from the scene towards me (and his vehicle) and drops his disguise and the cash in my van before hopping into his Impala and speeding off. I wait about 30 seconds, so that anyone giving a description of the "suspect vehicle" leaving the parking lot, doesn't notice my van being part of the get-away. We drive separately along a different route for about 3 minutes and meet up, ready to get on the freeway and make our break. The officers pull in behind the Impala and a white van that was following him closely, but since the suspect's vehicle was an Impala, and not a white van, they do not pull over the van. Now, they arrest my brother, but he couldn't be positively identified as the robber because of his disguise in the bank, and there was no disguise found in his car, nor was there any money found in his car, so he gets released a few minutes later. I'm in the white van, with the money and all incriminating evidence, and I also get away because the cops weren't willing to pull the other guy over. Close, but no cigar. Everyone gets off. Oh well, the bad guys win this one.

Also, as I think that there has been some unfounded speculation on this subject, I have no reason to suspect that I was ever at gunpoint at any time during this stop. I was able to see TP1 from the get go, and his G21 never cleared the leather. The only cop that possibly had weapon drawn was TP1's partner, who was on the passender side of the van, but I never saw a drawn weapon, and surely never saw one pointed in my direction. That would have been mentioned in my original post.

Dave_pro2a · Jan 25, 2008

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

I think that there has been some unfounded speculation

We agree on that count... we just don't agree upon when the unfounded speculation started

bayboy42 · Jan 25, 2008

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expvideo wrote:

The police are always going off of limited information. It's possible that his clothing matched the robber's. When the police got a description of the masked man, perhaps the only description they got was "White male in his 30's, 6'2", 190 lbs, wearing a blue pinstripe suit and a red tie"

Now if he happens to be a white male in his 30's, 6'2", 190 lbs, wearing a blue suit with a red tie, AND happens to be in the same vacinity that the robber was reported in, then he is probably going to be stopped and identified, possibly detained until he can be identified.

As a constitutionalist, I find this acceptable. I also find the actions and demeanor of the police officers to have been outstanding.

And howwould the police have seen his clothing with him sitting inside his car?

Citizen · Jan 25, 2008

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I'm not sure I follow the narrative completely.

I wonder if the first officer knew from observation that G20 was an innocent bystander and was motioning him out of potential danger in the felony stop ahead. Then the second officer mistakes G20 as a suspect and does the Terry Stop business.

If accurate, the second officer then has to lie to cover hisTerryStopand gun pointing.

I might be inclined to dig a bit and review thoroughly the timing of the events.

G20-IWB24/7 · Jan 25, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

I'm not sure I follow the narrative completely.

.......and gun pointing.

I might be inclined to dig a bit and review thoroughly the timing of the events.

C'mon, guys. THERE WAS NO GUN-POINTING AT ME!!! The guy in the Impala had about 10 cops pointing guns at him during the felony stop.

Citizen · Jan 25, 2008

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Citizen wrote:

I'm not sure I follow the narrative completely.

.......and gun pointing.

I might be inclined to dig a bit and review thoroughly the timing of the events.

Click to expand...

C'mon, guys. THERE WAS NO GUN-POINTING AT ME!!! The guy in the Impala had about 10 cops pointing guns at him during the felony stop.

OK. I get it. I went back and re-read carefully.

It just raises my suspicion even more. This officer is confronting who he says hesuspects is an armed bank robber. All his pals just up the road have their guns out pointed at their armedbank robber, but he doesn't have one pointed at his? Nor his partner on the other side of the car?

And his pals up the road have their armed bank robber suspect walk backwards from his car towards them (while they remain behind cover, presumably); yet, he leaves cover and approaches who he suspects is an armed bank robber?

Also,howdid they know to stop theImpala, but not G20 at first? In fact one car went around G20 focusing on the Impala.

Hmmmmmmmm.

jack · Jan 26, 2008

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KBCraig wrote:

jack wrote:

the fact that police accidentally kill 330 people annually,

Click to expand...

That little factoid would be useful with a cite. Where'd you get it?

That was stated on the Dr. Laura Schlessinger show by a gun rights advocate. It seemed hard to believe so I did some checking. It does confirm with the figures released by the department of Justice. Goggle citizens killed by police, number of citizens killed by the police and you can find articles discussing it.

BB62 · Jan 27, 2008

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jack wrote:

jack wrote:

the fact that police accidentally kill 330 people annually,

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

That was stated on the Dr. Laura Schlessinger show by a gun rights advocate. It seemed hard to believe so I did some checking. It does confirm with the figures released by the department of Justice. Goggle citizens killed by police, number of citizens killed by the police and you can find articles discussing it.

"Killed by police" probably includes self-defense and "stop or I'll shoot" situations, muddying the water like the anti's do with "a gun in the house..." deceptions and other outright lies.

what2watch4 · Jan 29, 2008

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The stat of 330 was from 1993 with not to many references to back it up to include nation or worldwide. Searching for other years didn't amount to many discoveries.

I would say the police did a good job! Because one only has info from a news article or scanner one assumes that is all there is? Who knows what was said between witnesses and officers? One was treated with respect and professionalism while also guarding not only the saftey of the officersafety but the safety of others.

Liko81 · Jan 29, 2008

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

They were looking for someone that looked like me, WITH a gun, and driving in that general vicinity. Checking to make sure I was me, the car was mine, and my gun was mine I think was within the practical scope of making sure they got the right guy.

I agree. IfOP had been doing something wrong, such as driving with an expired license, registration, or out of date insurance,he (you)probably would have gotten popped for it, but how would that be any different from an officer pullinghim over becausehe had a taillight out (something that generallygets a warning if that)? Police officers are trained to be thorough, because crime-fighting more often than not takes a little luck, and an officer will do allhe can to shorten those odds.

Game Theory scenario: There are two guys, armed, of similar physical description, in the same area. One of 'em's a violent felon, the other an average joe. They can stop person 1, stop person 2, orstop both. Regardless of who's who, if they only stop one, they havea 50-50 shot between getting their man first try (best possible, +10)and being sued for false arrest while also letting the robber go (worst possible, -10). If they stop both, they WILL get their man, but will also detain an innocent man until they determine who's REALLY the robber. Not as bad as a false arrest but not the best possible scenario. Call it +5. All possible results of a one-stop scenarioweighted by odds gives no net gain, while stopping both always gains 5. Therefore, stopping both is the best overall strategy to win the game.

Wheelgunner · Jan 29, 2008

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Hey! That is fine! Enjoy!

While you guys are cuffed by the side of the road and the officer is dropping your trousers (figuratively speaking) I will be driving along.

If I am to be cuffed, publicly humiliated, my person searched, my weapons numbers run, my car searched, thenI bloody well am going to get paid for it. My response of: "Am I being detained?" "If not, then I am leaving" "Here is my lawyers phone number" seems to be too radical for some. Wait till theDunk Drivercheckpoints start. I can see open carriers as the first people to be taken out of their car and cuffed. Bend over buddies!

If an officer can't do the above just because I have a gun in the open (legal behavior) he sure as poop can't do this because some other citizen has broken the law and he wants to make sure it isn't me.

Rights, Use them or lose them.

Bear 45/70 · Jan 29, 2008

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TwoPistols wrote:

Hey! That is fine! Enjoy!

While you guys are cuffed by the side of the road and the officer is dropping your trousers (figuratively speaking) I will be driving along.

If I am to be cuffed, publicly humiliated, my person searched, my weapons numbers run, my car searched, thenI bloody well am going to get paid for it. My response of: "Am I being detained?" "If not, then I am leaving" "Here is my lawyers phone number" seems to be too radical for some. Wait till theDunk Drivercheckpoints start. I can see open carriers as the first people to be taken out of their car and cuffed. Bend over buddies!

If an officer can't do the above just because I have a gun in the open (legal behavior) he sure as poop can't do this because some other citizen has broken the law and he wants to make sure it isn't me.

Rights, Use them or lose them.

Your attitude and that moron in the flick with his am I being detained BS will get his and your stupid asses shoot some day. When a nervous cop is pointing a gun at you, being stupid is not conducive to staying alive. So go ahead and exercise you right, I will not mourn your passing. FYI, I know several officers who would have drug his loud mouth ass out of his truck for failure to follow an officers instructions and made it stick. There is exercising your rights and there is being stupid enough for nature tofeel you are from the shallow end of the gene pool and have your sorry butt eliminated.

G20-IWB24/7 · Jan 29, 2008

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TwoPistols wrote:

My response of: "Am I being detained?" "If not, then I am leaving" "Here is my lawyers phone number" seems to be too radical for some.

If you read the story, I WAS being detained. There was reasonable, articulable suspicion, enough to detain me until they figured out I was me, the van was mine, and the gun was mine.

So, TwoPistols, when they respond to me, "Yes, you ARE being detained." What is my next move, sir? What "SHOULD" I have done, according to the doctrine of you?

This was not a OC stop, this was not a drunk driver checkpoint, this was not an immigration check point, and to suggest that these situations have anything to do with what ACTUALLY was happening is ignorant and starting to sound like a broken record. This was a felony traffic stop, within minutes of an armed bank robbery.

I'm pretty sure if I were to have started questioning TP1's actions from the get-go, I would have probably been looking down the barrels of a few of their guns, while trying to "prove" a point that I'm a chatroom lawyer and not willing to cooperate. Instead, I cooperated, and everyone involved continued to act professionally, and I was apologized to by the officer, and the lead detective. A much better outcome, and a good experience for the officers who were involved, insomuch that maybe they'll be more pro-gun in the future, after having a good experience when dealing with a good-guy gun owner in the past.

You sound like you're trying to make headway by being negative and an enemy of LE. I'm trying to get them on-board w/being pro-gun w/out acting like a jerk. All people seem to respond better to that approach.

G20-IWB24/7 · Jan 29, 2008

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

SNIP....When a nervous cop is pointing a gun at you, being stupid is not conducive to staying alive.

SNIP I know several officers who would have drug his loud mouth ass out of his truck for failure to follow an officers instructions and made it stick. There is exercising your rights and there is being stupid.... SNIP.

1) Bear, I see that we finally agree on something.

2) Thank you for the compliment, I've been working on my voice projection.

sv_libertarian · Jan 29, 2008

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I have a policy regarding questionalbe stops. Generally speaking you are NOT going win an argument with a beat cop when he stops you and my time is generally too valuable to waste waiting for a supervisor. So I will work on ending the stop as quickly as possible, and THEN go up to headquarters and start the complaint process, talk with my lawyer, whatever.

You are simply not going to stop a cop from violating your rights during a stop. You can however take approriate steps afterward, including lawsuits to ensure that you are properly apologized to or compensated for your troubles and that such events will not happen again. Sometimes the wheel turns slow, but it does turn. Basically let the cop do what he is going to do, because it isn't going to stop. Let them know your rights are being violated, and how, and then go make grief for the people who actually run the show.

Bear 45/70 · Jan 29, 2008

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

SNIP....When a nervous cop is pointing a gun at you, being stupid is not conducive to staying alive.

Click to expand...

SNIP I know several officers who would have drug his loud mouth ass out of his truck for failure to follow an officers instructions and made it stick. There is exercising your rights and there is being stupid.... SNIP.

Click to expand...

1) Bear, I see that we finally agree on something.

2) Thank you for the compliment, I've been working on my voice projection.

Hey a guy can't always be wrong unless he's a democrat.

Mistaken for a Bank Robber while CCing in Tacoma

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