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Why does a delivery employee need a gun?

Tomahawk

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vmathis12019 wrote:
Could drawing your weapon and NOT firing in an attempted robbery situation really be considered brandishing in VA?

That depends on what you do next, which should be to call the police immediately and report it before the other guy evenstops running. Don't let him make the first call.

Next it depends on what comes out of your mouth when speaking to the police. I think I know what I would say, but that's my business.
 

Neplusultra

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casullshooter wrote:
Someone that just tried to rob you is not going to call the PD and cry, HE BRANDISHED A GUN WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Try to rob me weapon or not and you will be staring down the barrel of a .45.

Keep in mind the assailant was wearing a mask, this shows intent of foul play. If you want to wait for the BG to shoot you before you react we will place flowers by your headstone.

Judged by 12 or carried by 6.........you choose.
Actually there's a story on this forum of just that. A guy was attacked in a remote section of a parking lot of a movie theater. The BG was run off by his pointing his gun at him but the BG returned with a PO claiming he tried to shoot him! I think it ended up well IIRC but only after a lot of hassle for the guy.

But I agree with you, I'm not going to sit there and try to guess what this guy has in mind for me. One knock to the head or such can make problems for you and things can happen fast. The mere fact he is trying to rob you with a mask should be enough. Even if it causes legal problems. Now, I sure wouldn't shoot the guy unless he actually threatens deadly force, or lunges at me once the gun is brandished.

I would expect that brandishing is considered a bad thing due to the assumption that the one brandished to is not guilty of anything of that might require deadly force. Robbery is not in virginia IIRC. But I also cannot allow a criminal to come close to me while I am carrying a gun. If he steals it that would be bad right? Most times I've been mugged, it's been awhile, the BG doesn't believe I've given him everything and will search me. I can't let him get that close.

Anyway that would be along the lines of my argument for justifying brandishing.

Thoughts?
 

wchiang

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I recall that incident that Neplusultra is referring to. What I am trying to say is that drawing your gun in a situation where deadly force is not presented against you might cause some legal problems.

I understand the mentality of wanting to draw when a thug (unarmed) starts hassling you. However when you report it to the police, a prosecutor/police may not see that you were justified in escalating the situation by threatening legal force. Then the questions becomes, is it worth trying to convince a jury that you were in fear of serious bodily harm because some guy was shoving you?

Can we get LEO229 to shed his thoughts?
 

Grapeshot

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If I am presented with one or more threatening assailants and perceive myself to be in immediate danger of serious bodily harm, I WILL REACT.

They have the means, opportunity and it is a "now" situation.
What would a reasonable person due if presented with the same situation?
Add a BG weapon to the mix and my reaction escalates.

How far would I be forced to go? Hey, this is hypothetical situation of which we speak, but I will not go down voluntarily nor peaceably.

Yata hey
 

DeadCenter

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casullshooter wrote:
Someone that just tried to rob you is not going to call the PD and cry, HE BRANDISHED A GUN WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Try to rob me weapon or not and you will be staring down the barrel of a .45.

Keep in mind the assailant was wearing a mask, this shows intent of foul play. If you want to wait for the BG to shoot you before you react we will place flowers by your headstone.

Judged by 12 or carried by 6.........you choose.

I second
 

swillden

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wchiang wrote:
I recall that incident that Neplusultra is referring to. What I am trying to say is that drawing your gun in a situation where deadly force is not presented against you might cause some legal problems.
Is that true in VA? Under UT law, deadly force is justifiable when you have a reasonable fear of death OR serious injury, OR to stop the commission of a violent felony. The "violent felonies" are enumerated in the law, and robbery is among them, so in UT you'd be legally justified not only in drawing, but in shooting.

Of course, you'd still be open to a civil suit, so I wouldn't shoot unless drawing failed to dissuade him.
 

DeadCenter

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Neplusultra wrote:
wchiang wrote:
This story is from last year, but should add some more opinions to the topic.

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6076855

I remember this story. Any news of how it ended up? Did he sue the city? Of course it happened in Virginia Beach so it may not be a good indicator :^).

>>But they say if you don't know the parents or if the child comes to your front door, call police.<<



And when seconds count...................
 

LEO 229

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Delivery guys are robbed all the time!! You just do not hear about it.

The sad part is that the employers do not want their delivery guys packing since they are on the clock for the company and if the gun was used in a manner that was not lawful and proper... the business would be sued.

I can completely understand this policy being a business owner. I have to really trust the employee's decision making process. I did have an employee I allowed to carry at the counter after I schooled him on when to pull it.

I am going to agree with T-Hawk in that if you are being jacked for your money (Robbery by force, threats,or intimidation) a felony... I would pull my gun. If you believed these threats to be real... you then you must decide to shoot if the person advances. I would give the guy a chance to run away if he is not actually armed.

If the guy does run... I hope you call 911 immediately so he can be caught. This is also useful for when the guy calls on YOU and tries to get you popped for pointing a gun at him. This has happened before where the bad guy calls to have his victim arrested.



18.2-58. [Robbery] How punished.

If any person commit robbery by partial strangulation, or suffocation, or by striking or beating, or by other violence to the person, or by assault or otherwise putting a person in fear of serious bodily harm, or by the threat or presenting of firearms, or other deadly weapon or instrumentality whatsoever, he shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by confinement in a state correctional facility for life or any term not less than five years.
 

swillden

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VAopencarry wrote:
Pepper spray
Most "no weapons" policies I've seen would prohibit pepper spray as well. If you're going to violate the policy, might as well carry a gun. Actually, you should probably carry pepper spray, a good knife and a gun so you can choose whichever level of force is appropriate. Excuse me if that's what you meant.
 

Neplusultra

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LEO 229 wrote:
Delivery guys are robbed all the time!! You just do not hear about it.

The sad part is that the employers do not want their delivery guys packing since they are on the clock for the company and if the gun was used in a manner that was not lawful and proper... the business would be sued.

I can completely understand this policy being a business owner. I have to really trust the employee's decision making process. I did have an employee I allowed to carry at the counter after I schooled him on when to pull it.
Long before I carried a gun I worked delivering pizza and they had a no guns policy. Today I would still carry but on a don't ask, don't tell basis. I would still have been fired if they found out though, that's the cost to pay.

It's going to take a lawsuit or a new law to separate liabilities for carrying on the job. It need's to happen.
 

AbNo

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swillden wrote:
VAopencarry wrote:
Pepper spray
Most "no weapons" policies I've seen would prohibit pepper spray as well.  If you're going to violate the policy, might as well carry a gun.  Actually, you should probably carry pepper spray, a good knife and a gun so you can choose whichever level of force is appropriate.  Excuse me if that's what you meant.

I like that idea.
 

LEO 229

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Neplusultra wrote:
Long before I carried a gun I worked delivering pizza and they had a no guns policy. Today I would still carry but on a don't ask, don't tell basis. I would still have been fired if they found out though, that's the cost to pay.

It's going to take a lawsuit or a new law to separate liabilities for carrying on the job. It need's to happen.
What is the worst that would happen??

You get caught and you get fired. OK.

Or you could be robbed and killed while being unarmed.

I like the don't ask, don't tell policy.

What the boss does not know will not hurt your job status.
 

AbNo

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LEO 229 wrote:
Neplusultra wrote:
Long before I carried a gun I worked delivering pizza and they had a no guns policy.  Today I would still carry but on a don't ask, don't tell basis.  I would still have been fired if they found out though, that's the cost to pay.

It's going to take a lawsuit or a new law to separate liabilities for carrying on the job.  It need's to happen.
What is the worst that would happen??

You get caught and you get fired. OK.

Or you could be robbed and killed while being unarmed.

I like the don't ask, don't tell policy.

What the boss does not know will not hurt your job status.

Sounds like a winning policy to me. *cough*
 
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