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Thread: OC or Brandishing?

  1. #1
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    I live in Washington and have been carrying since 16, legaly since 21 and just found out here that OC's legal. I carry a glock or desert eagle .50AE depending on how I feel or weather so obviously OC opens up more options for carry.
    I dont care to fully OC I dont ever want anyone to see my weapons not to make them feel better but because it's my decision when you see my weapon.

    My question is if a situation deems it, and I feel I can diffuse an escalating confrontation, is brushing my jacket or clothing aside to reveal my weapon considered brandishing my weapon?

  2. #2
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    Depending on jurisdiction, yes.

  3. #3
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    Here's how I look at it. If you are CCing, that means concealed. You have made the decision to hide your weapon from sight until a situation warrants deadly force. If merely uncovering your weapon is a viable option, so is walking away. A weapon that is concealed should stay that way when it comes to diffusing a situation. If the presence of a weapon becomes NECESSARY, it had better be in your hand firing!

    In short: if you think someone seeing your weapon will make you safer, then just OC. If not, be prepared to keep your weapon a secret until it's time to shoot,or you will very likely face brandishing charges.

    It is also not a good idea to post on a public online forum that you spent five years of your life breaking the law. People here don't take too kindly to individuals who openly admit to disregarding the law. The term law-abiding is something we take very seriously at OCDO.

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    Welcome to OCDO!!!

    I can't think of too many situations where brushing aside the cover garment to reveal the firearm would be the best tactical move.

    If someone is close enough to see and notice your move to expose, and they are presenting enough threat to justify introducing the firearm, I suspect you're better off retreating (if safe and to avoid false prosecution or wrongful death civil suit), or creating distance anddrawing the gun.

    If he's close enough to take notice of you exposing the gun, he can be on you before you have time to draw and fire the doctrinally required two-to-center mass. Realize you will draw back your cover garment---and then wait for his move. Which puts him in the position of acting and you reacting.

    I guess one case where it might safely work is if you are being stalked by some mugging-minded crooks and you take off your jacket under a street light and pretend to look in the lining for that lottery ticket you just remembered. You then have the problem of getting to the police before the bad guys do. Some are apparently pretty savvy and not above falsely reporting that somebody just waved a gun at themat 10th and Main.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
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    How do you carry a DE?

  6. #6
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    DE?

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    vmathis12019 wrote:
    DE?
    Desert Eagle http://tinyurl.com/2q6yx
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
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    Gotcha... brain malfunction I suppose. I wouldn't carry one of those things with anything less than a rifle sling...lol.

  9. #9
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    With a big F'ing holster. If you're under 150lbs you might consider a counter-balanceso you don't tip over.

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    DrewGunner wrote:
    With a big F'ing holster. If you're under 150lbs you might consider a counter-balanceso you don't tip over.
    Do just like the mounted troops did with the Walker and Dragoon Colt cap-and-ball revolvers. Carry two. On horseback.

    Carrying one in your rolling luggage lends a whole new meaning to the words towed artillery.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
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    RCW 9.41.270
    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.


    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.


    ------------------------------



    There ya go. It wouldn't be illegal if you were being threatened, though again, I don't think I'd do it if I were CCing. Seems too much like escalation rather than deescalation...

  12. #12
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    Ronin,

    Hope you weren't scared off...

    Plenty of decent people carry "illegally" for a variety of reasons. I do not blame them at all, unlike some others here.

    It's just best not to admit to it publicly.



    -- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

  13. #13
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    I'd say no, it's brandishing because what you described is an obvious attempt to intimidate another through a display of force. What you consider an escalation may not in fact be. Words First (1A), Weapons Second (2A)...get it?

    RCW 9.41.270
    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    Key words there are AGAINST THE USE OF PRESENTLY THREATENED UNLAWFUL FORCE by another.

    I would say that's a very bad move, is most certainly brandishing and most certainly escalation unlessTHEY pull a gun on you illegally. Never bring a knife to a gun fight and never bring a gun into a fist-fight unless you are reasonably afraid for your life. (tiny versusbig or many type of altercation).





  14. #14
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    Didn't I just say that, Bob, or am I missing something?

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    Sage of Seattle wrote:
    There ya go. It wouldn't be illegal if you were being threatened, though again, I don't think I'd do it if I were CCing. Seems too much like escalation rather than deescalation...
    Sage of Seattle wrote:
    Didn't I just say that, Bob, or am I missing something?
    Kind of, but I wanted to clear it up a bit because it's more than just being threatened...it's being threatenedwith an ILLEGAL WEAPON and must expose it to protect himself (i.e reaching for it in defense). Threatened with a fist or harsh words...tough up and take it, but don't pull a gun. (unless of course your tiny, he's huge or you're outnumbered and fearing for your life...)

    I got the impression the OP was merely trying to force a de-escalation of asituation by introducing his weapon into the equation.It seems to me to be the old "I have a gun, I'm in control - do what I say" argument.



  16. #16
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    Gotcha, Bob. Clarification is always good in my book!

    :celebrate

  17. #17
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    vmathis12019 wrote:
    Here's how I look at it. If you are CCing, that means concealed. You have made the decision to hide your weapon from sight until a situation warrants deadly force. If merely uncovering your weapon is a viable option, so is walking away. A weapon that is concealed should stay that way when it comes to diffusing a situation. If the presence of a weapon becomes NECESSARY, it had better be in your hand firing!

    In short: if you think someone seeing your weapon will make you safer, then just OC. If not, be prepared to keep your weapon a secret until it's time to shoot,or you will very likely face brandishing charges.

    It is also not a good idea to post on a public online forum that you spent five years of your life breaking the law. People here don't take too kindly to individuals who openly admit to disregarding the law. The term law-abiding is something we take very seriously at OCDO.
    Don't presume to know me or where I've lived, to the rest of you thank you for the answers to my legal questions.

  18. #18
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    The last thing our cause needs is people out there admitting to breaking the law. Whether your principle was well founded or not, you have OPENLY ADMITTED on a PUBLIC FORUM that you BROKE THE LAW. Don't be so naive as to think that the only participants here support our cause.

    I don't presume anything about you or where you're from. You said yourself that you carried a firearm illegally. As stated above, your principles are not what I am challenging. I'm sure you had what you thought was a very good reason to carry said weapon; however, in doing so, you broke the law. The popular sentiment among the members here at OCDO is that breaking the law is WRONG.

  19. #19
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    BobCav wrote:
    Kind of, but I wanted to clear it up a bit because it's more than just being threatened...it's being threatened*with an ILLEGAL WEAPON and must expose it to protect himself (i.e reaching for it in defense).* Threatened with a fist or harsh words...tough up and take it, but don't pull a gun.* (unless of course your tiny, he's huge or you're outnumbered and fearing for your life...)

    I got the impression the OP was merely trying to force a de-escalation of a*situation by introducing his weapon into the equation.**It seems to me to be the old "I have a gun, I'm in control - do what I say" argument.
    That's pretty much my advice as well, but there's no need I could ever see to pull my weapon without using it. If I'm feeling like my life's in danger, I'm going to back away, and retreat if possible, and verbally talk it down. If I need to draw, there's no hesitation to see whether or not the threat of counter-force is "working" to diffuse anything. Perhaps that's the wrong way to prepare myself and go about things, and that's a good debate.

    As for the DE, I think it's overkill, and unless you feel confident you can hit what you're aiming with it and you won't hit anything else behind it (do they even make .50 JHP's?, I'd reconsider. But if you're OC'ing a DE for the 0_o factor, then kudos to you and more power to you. Just a pragmatic criticism and not a negative one at all.
    -Unrequited

  20. #20
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    vmathis12019 wrote:
    The last thing our cause needs is people out there admitting to breaking the law. Whether your principle was well founded or not, you have OPENLY ADMITTED on a PUBLIC FORUM that you BROKE THE LAW. Don't be so naive as to think that the only participants here support our cause.

    I don't presume anything about you or where you're from. You said yourself that you carried a firearm illegally. As stated above, your principles are not what I am challenging. I'm sure you had what you thought was a very good reason to carry said weapon; however, in doing so, you broke the law. The popular sentiment among the members here at OCDO is that breaking the law is WRONG.
    Read it , what I wrote was I've been carrying since 16 and carried concealed with permit since 21, and you're still presuming to know where I've lived. AS for critiqing me with you're allways perfect textbook scenerios,Running does'nt allways save lives or end a situation. So let me reiterate YOU DON'T KNOW ME, MY AGE OR MY LEVEL OF TRAINING AND SKILLS!!!!!!

  21. #21
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    unrequited wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    Kind of, but I wanted to clear it up a bit because it's more than just being threatened...it's being threatenedwith an ILLEGAL WEAPON and must expose it to protect himself (i.e reaching for it in defense). Threatened with a fist or harsh words...tough up and take it, but don't pull a gun. (unless of course your tiny, he's huge or you're outnumbered and fearing for your life...)

    I got the impression the OP was merely trying to force a de-escalation of asituation by introducing his weapon into the equation.It seems to me to be the old "I have a gun, I'm in control - do what I say" argument.
    That's pretty much my advice as well, but there's no need I could ever see to pull my weapon without using it. If I'm feeling like my life's in danger, I'm going to back away, and retreat if possible, and verbally talk it down. If I need to draw, there's no hesitation to see whether or not the threat of counter-force is "working" to diffuse anything. Perhaps that's the wrong way to prepare myself and go about things, and that's a good debate.

    As for the DE, I think it's overkill, and unless you feel confident you can hit what you're aiming with it and you won't hit anything else behind it (do they even make .50 JHP's?, I'd reconsider. But if you're OC'ing a DE for the 0_o factor, then kudos to you and more power to you. Just a pragmatic criticism and not a negative one at all.
    Yes magnum research does and as long as they are the full copper wrap into the cone they feed very well. It is a superb weapon that I'm highly skilled with and like I said I have another weapon I switch out for primary. If you have not had a chance to shoot one you should it's a suprisingly comfortable weapon. Thanks for the constructive criticism it's appreciated.

  22. #22
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    RONIN wrote:
    I live in Washington and have been carrying since 16, legaly since 21
    This does not say that you have been "carrying since 16 and carrying concealed with permit since 21." It says that you have carried since 16, and legally since 21.

    This most certainly implies that you were breaking the law, as you yourself acknowledged that your carrying did not become legaluntil you were 21. You said that you live in Washington and carried a pistol when you were 16. This is illegal in Washington. If you lived somewhere else where 16 is a legal age to carry, please inform. The only situations I know of where this is the case is in the form of Open Carry with parental permission in SOME states, and on private property. If this is the case, please explain where you lived and cite that what you were doing was not illegal.

    As far as your original post goes, you explicitly declared that you have broken some sort of law and that you acknowledged the fact that you did it. If you didn't break a law, reword your post. If you did, it does not matter for what reason, YOU BROKE THE LAW. While I agree that carrying is very important, myself, and many members have all agreed that it is insensible for certain people to do so. I, as well as most state legislatures, feel that 16 is an inappropriate age to carry.

    Stop throwing around the confrontational "you don't know me" phrase.If your "age, and level of training and skills" are such that make carrying at the age 16 legal, please explain. Don't continue to shroud your statements with certain "secret" knowledge and abilities. Either defend your actions and statements with words, or lose my respect (not that it's worth much) for your contributions.


    Edited for poor syntax.

  23. #23
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    I'm not here for your respect or approval. LOL! and I live in WA. Keep your ignorant self righteousness and your forum!

  24. #24
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    RONIN wrote:
    So let me reiterate YOU DON'T KNOW ME, MY AGE OR MY LEVEL OF TRAINING AND SKILLS!!!!!!

    Self righteous? Now that certainly seems to be the pot calling the kettle black. In any case, you have proven that you have no desire to provide any defense of your statements. Congratulations on wasting time and bandwidth with your postings, asthat's all you have accomplished with your uncorroborated statements.

  25. #25
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    Fella's. Lets make RONIN welcome.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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