OC or Brandishing?

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unrequited wrote:

BobCav wrote:

Kind of, but I wanted to clear it up a bit because it's more than just being threatened...it's being threatenedwith an ILLEGAL WEAPON and must expose it to protect himself (i.e reaching for it in defense). Threatened with a fist or harsh words...tough up and take it, but don't pull a gun. (unless of course your tiny, he's huge or you're outnumbered and fearing for your life...)

I got the impression the OP was merely trying to force a de-escalation of asituation by introducing his weapon into the equation.It seems to me to be the old "I have a gun, I'm in control - do what I say" argument.

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That's pretty much my advice as well, but there's no need I could ever see to pull my weapon without using it. If I'm feeling like my life's in danger, I'm going to back away, and retreat if possible, and verbally talk it down. If I need to draw, there's no hesitation to see whether or not the threat of counter-force is "working" to diffuse anything. Perhaps that's the wrong way to prepare myself and go about things, and that's a good debate.

As for the DE, I think it's overkill, and unless you feel confident you can hit what you're aiming with it and you won't hit anything else behind it (do they even make .50 JHP's?, I'd reconsider. But if you're OC'ing a DE for the 0_o factor, then kudos to you and more power to you. Just a pragmatic criticism and not a negative one at all.

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Yes magnum research does and as long as they are the full copper wrap into the cone they feed very well. It is a superb weapon that I'm highly skilled with and like I said I have another weapon I switch out for primary. If you have not had a chance to shoot one you should it's a suprisingly comfortable weapon. Thanks for the constructive criticism it's appreciated.

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RONIN wrote:

I live in Washington and have been carrying since 16, legaly since 21

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This does not say that you have been "carrying since 16 and carrying concealed with permit since 21." It says that you have carried since 16, and legally since 21.

This most certainly implies that you were breaking the law, as you yourself acknowledged that your carrying did not become legaluntil you were 21. You said that you live in Washington and carried a pistol when you were 16. This is illegal in Washington. If you lived somewhere else where 16 is a legal age to carry, please inform. The only situations I know of where this is the case is in the form of Open Carry with parental permission in SOME states, and on private property. If this is the case, please explain where you lived and cite that what you were doing was not illegal.

As far as your original post goes, you explicitly declared that you have broken some sort of law and that you acknowledged the fact that you did it. If you didn't break a law, reword your post. If you did, it does not matter for what reason, YOU BROKE THE LAW. While I agree that carrying is very important, myself, and many members have all agreed that it is insensible for certain people to do so. I, as well as most state legislatures, feel that 16 is an inappropriate age to carry.

Stop throwing around the confrontational "you don't know me" phrase.If your "age, and level of training and skills" are such that make carrying at the age 16 legal, please explain. Don't continue to shroud your statements with certain "secret" knowledge and abilities. Either defend your actions and statements with words, or lose my respect (not that it's worth much) for your contributions.


Edited for poor syntax.

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I'm not here for your respect or approval. LOL! and I live in WA. Keep your ignorant self righteousness and your forum!

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RONIN wrote:

So let me reiterate YOU DON'T KNOW ME, MY AGE OR MY LEVEL OF TRAINING AND SKILLS!!!!!!

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Self righteous? Now that certainly seems to be the pot calling the kettle black. In any case, you have proven that you have no desire to provide any defense of your statements. Congratulations on wasting time and bandwidth with your postings, asthat's all you have accomplished with your uncorroborated statements.

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Fella's. Lets make RONIN welcome.

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Um, isn't that what is happening? Lol, baptism by fire? Ronin, welcome to the board. Be prepared to be asked for clarification, don't be so bashful in providing details when requested.

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bohdi wrote:

Um, isn't that what is happening? Lol, baptism by fire? Ronin, welcome to the board. Be prepared to asked for clarification, don't be so bashful in providing details when requested.

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Agreed. I don't want to discourage the fellow from posting. I want him to realize that you need more than "a man's good word" around here. It would also be nice for him to either retract his statement about carrying at age 16, or fess up to his illegal behavior.

The danger of having people postingstatements about brashly disregarding the lawis self-explanatory as I know that we are all not naive enough to believe that the only people who peruse this site are pro-2a.

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vmathis12019 wrote:

bohdi wrote:

Um, isn't that what is happening? Lol, baptism by fire? Ronin, welcome to the board. Be prepared to asked for clarification, don't be so bashful in providing details when requested.

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Agreed. I don't want to discourage the fellow from posting. I want him to realize that you need more than "a man's good word" around here. It would also be nice for him to either retract his statement about carrying at age 16, or fess up to his illegal behavior.

The danger of having people postingstatements about brashly disregarding the lawis self-explanatory as I know that we are all not naive enough to believe that the only people who peruse this site are pro-2a.

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Welcome Ronin.

I understand your stance on this vmathis, but lets keep things in perspective. I don't think anyone here is looking to getRonin in hot water. Remember that it takes more than a mere confession to be convicted of a crime and his statementwas about his past. It is more of a moral issue than a legal one at this point in time.

How about we get back on track now. I do not think "flashing" a holstered gun could be construed as brandishing, but one could be charged with intimidation. I do not condone flashing a gun, as all the other person has to do is say that you exposed it to them, and they were intimidated/in fear. This is a tactic often used by gangbangers, and definetly not the best idea as it may well escalate the situation.

Remember that you are not the only one with a gun out there, and someone else may well decide to draw on you based on the exposure.

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No problem Ronin...

What Johnny's said is pretty decent advice. I don't see firearm at my side as an option, instead it is the last option.

If you're going to OC, you remove a lot of the worry about brandishing, but even then, you shouldn't ever point or draw attention to it to "threaten" it's use. It's on your hip, if you need to pull it, pull it and use it.

If you're going to CC, all drawing will do is force the next move to be made by the other guy. Either he'll scream and run, freeze in terror, or attack you because you've escalated it. Again, I think the best course of action is to do everything you can to diffuse the situation verbally, physically (removing yourself that is), etc. If that fails, it's back to "It's on your hip, if you need to pull it, pull it and use it."

It's just the old warrior's philosophy that a sword should never be drawn unless it's going to be used to draw blood. It's a weapon and should be treated as such. I'm not a cop, nor have I been trained in the use of using my weapon as a form of control, so I would doubt I'd ever attempt it. I do know how to shoot though, and of course would only use that as my last option.

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Vmathis is right. If you conceal... keep it concealed.

I don't think you admitted to doing anything illegal (not enough information). One thing to consider is that prosecutors can and will subpoena your ISP records, find what sites you have visited, and can legally use any incriminating information you have posted on forums. Unless you are a 'l33t hax0r' and are using a multitude of proxy's in 25 different countries the internet is not anonymous.

I've seen so many people admit to so many crimes online it's not funny. The internet has the illusion of anonymity, but in reality it's very, very public. It's funny how many people I've scared by digging up their personal information in a matter of minutes just from a few pieces of info... and that's not as much info the gov. would get if they wanted.

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

Vmathis is right. If you conceal... keep it concealed.

I don't think you admitted to doing anything illegal (not enough information). One thing to consider is that prosecutors can and will subpoena your ISP records, find what sites you have visited, and can legally use any incriminating information you have posted on forums. Unless you are a 'l33t hax0r' and are using a multitude of proxy's in 25 different countries the internet is not anonymous.

I've seen so many people admit to so many crimes online it's not funny. The internet has the illusion of anonymity, but in reality it's very, very public. It's funny how many people I've scared by digging up their personal information in a matter of minutes just from a few pieces of info... and that's not as much info the gov. would get if they wanted.

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Big Brother is TRULY watching. :what:



Tarzan

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not sure of the legal angle. but if you are CCing and someone looks weird, showing your gun may send the situation down an ugly path. wierd doesn't constitute immeadiate threat. treat showing the weapon as it you are pulling the weapon to fire. you don't pull the gun and think about whether to shoot, neither should showing the weapon to a potential 'bad guy' .
Also im assuming you have massive muscles to feel like carrying a desert eagle. in general they are not suited to engaging multiple targets, the physical weight means that target acquisition on subsequent shots is so-so.

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exgabrit wrote:

not sure of the legal angle. but if you are CCing and someone looks weird, showing your gun may send the situation down an ugly path..........

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I go through the transition all the time. I carry a gun and I do so comfortably

For example Friday Night. We got to the restaurant, it is snowing outside and I am carrying my .357 in my shoulder holster.

As I sit down off comes my coat and my wife nudges me with a smile and indicates some of the stares I am getting.

I don't even acknowledge them and eat my dinner. When we are done, I put my coat back on and we leave.

I think it is all in how you make the transition. If it is a natural flow, like taking off you coat because you are inside....that is natural flow. Making exaggerated movements and calling attention to your gun, that is not.

Tarzan

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exactly, it's appearance and demeanour.

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(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

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Showing the weapon with the purpose of intimidating (which is the only reason that you would change from CC to OC mid-arguement) is illegal.

If you don't feel that you have to use the gun, keep it concealed. If you do feel that your life is in danger, use the gun. There is no way to legally transition from CC to OC durring an arguement.

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expvideo wrote:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

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Showing the weapon with the purpose of intimidating (which is the only reason that you would change from CC to OC mid-arguement) is illegal.

If you don't feel that you have to use the gun, keep it concealed. If you do feel that your life is in danger, use the gun. There is no way to legally transition from CC to OC durring an arguement.

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Yes! Exactly.



Tarzan

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expvideo wrote:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

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Showing the weapon with the purpose of intimidating (which is the only reason that you would change from CC to OC mid-arguement) is illegal.

If you don't feel that you have to use the gun, keep it concealed. If you do feel that your life is in danger, use the gun. There is no way to legally transition from CC to OC durring an arguement.

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Well said, expvideo.

I'll also throw out a big agreement with Tarzan as to demeanor. I have found that the way I dress and act makes a big difference with how my carrying a firearm is reacted to by the public.

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exgabrit wrote:

exactly, it's appearance and demeanour.

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I agree 1000%

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Kids at 16 do not need to read this kind of material.Not a good thing....Its not OK to Carry at 16......

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kemosabi wrote:

Kids at 16 do not need to read this kind of material.Not a good thing....Its not OK to Carry at 16......

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Well here in Utah,

76-10-509. Possession of dangerous weapon by minor.
(1) A minor under 18 years of age may not possess a dangerous weapon unless he:
(a) has the permission of his parent or guardian to have the weapon; or
(b) is accompanied by a parent or guardian while he has the weapon in his possession.
(2) Any minor under 14 years of age in possession of a dangerous weapon shall be accompanied by a responsible adult.
(3) Any person who violates this section is guilty of:
(a) a class B misdemeanor upon the first offense; and
(b) a class A misdemeanor for each subsequent offense.


Amended by Chapter 10, 1993 Special Session 2
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C039.ZIP 1,855 Bytes


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So pretty much just fill out a "permission" slip and you son/daughter between 14 - 18 can carry a long rifle ie shotgun (but not a "sawed-off shotgun", rifle of ANY choice (but not a "sawed-off rifle).

76-10-509.4. Prohibition of possession of certain weapons by minors.
(1) A minor under 18 years of age may not possess a handgun.
(2) Except as provided by federal law, a minor under 18 years of age may not possess the following:
(a) a sawed-off rifle or sawed-off shotgun; or
(b) a fully automatic weapon.
(3) Any person who violates Subsection (1) is guilty of:
(a) a class B misdemeanor upon the first offense; and
(b) a class A misdemeanor for each subsequent offense.
(4) Any person who violates Subsection (2) is guilty of a third degree felony.


Amended by Chapter 80, 1995 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C040.ZIP 1,897 Bytes


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TJ

"Either we are EQUAL or NOT" AS Doug usual says