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Thread: Guns in schools proposal

  1. #1
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    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...nbill0126.html



    The anti's are doing their usuall "All the kids will be armed and everyone will immediately start killing each other in an orgy of blood and guns scare me because I am paranoid and don't trust anyone and the kooks are all nut jobs and should be put away so I can be safe and why are the whack jobs in government proposing such insane things..." :what:

    And the pro's seem to be doing a remarkable job of restraining their comments to the facts of the issue.

    "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout" seems to be the replacement for logic on the anti side. Sigh.

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    In the context of a school shooting, for example, he said the prospect of additional weapons in the hands of faculty or even students could "exacerbate the situation" when police arrive on scene and are trying to quickly identify the assailant.


    Comments like that drive me crazy. I would like to ask him if he thinks it's much better for the police to arrive and find 20 dead kids/faculty. If memory serves me correctly, at the Utah mall shooting, the police didn't shoot the off-duty officer that had the bgpinned down. Police also didn't shoot thecivilian lady thathad shot the gunman at thechurch in Colorado last month.

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    Notso wrote:
    In the context of a school shooting, for example, he said the prospect of additional weapons in the hands of faculty or even students could "exacerbate the situation" when police arrive on scene and are trying to quickly identify the assailant.

    Comments like that drive me crazy. I would like to ask him if he thinks it's much better for the police to arrive and find 20 dead kids/faculty. If memory serves me correctly, at the Utah mall shooting, the police didn't shoot the off-duty officer that had the bgpinned down. Police also didn't shoot thecivilian lady thathad shot the gunman at thechurch in Colorado last month.
    Agreed. It's a pretty stupid comment. What bugs me even more is the implicit assumption that someone who carries a gun would not have considered this issue. I sure have, and I'll bet everyone else here has also put a few minutes into considering how they'd handle it. Also, the person who's likely to get shot is the "gun totin' nutjob" who deserves it, right? So if you're an anti, what's the problem?

    Buttressing your point about the Trolley Square incident, I read articles (which I can't find now, unfortunately) about two other armed citizens who were present, and *also* didn't get shot. They didn't make the headlines because rather than chasing after the shooter they just got everyone around them into a defensible location and took up defensive positions in case the shooter headed their direction. Police somehow managed to avoid shooting them as well, in spite of the confusion of at least *four* people with guns in the mall.

    What a dumb, dumb argument. But the press just eats it up.

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    I think my reply is on page 35.

    The East Valley Tribune has an article about this, too. My reply is on page four there.

    http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/107354

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    Here is a professor at Arizona University arguing against handgun carry on university campus.

    "Anyone who knows Arizona politics won’t be surprised by another dumb proposal being put forward by Thayer Verschoor and Karen Johnson. Both are Republicans. Both have problems with evolution - Verschoor turned up at an Answers in Genesis fundraiser a few years back. Both supported a measure that would have forced instructors to provide alternative material when the material being taught went against the worldview of students. In short, both are culture warriors idiots, pure and simple.

    And if only to prove their idiocy, they are now proposing a bill (SB 1214) that would exempt concealed-carry permit holders from a Arizona law that bars individuals from knowingly carrying deadly weapons onto school property. Yeah, that makes sense. Let’s allow the students carry guns. That should make things more comfortable for the teachers as they fail the little snowflakes. Let’s allow the teachers carry. That should make things better next time they feel threatened by the dumb students contesting their grades.

    Johnson is a member of Gun Owners of America, Arizona Right to Life, Concerned Women for America, Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, Americans for Decency and the NRA. Her "issues of concern" include:

    protecting the rights of parents to determine how and where their children are educated; standing firm for the precious right to life of the unborn, the elderly, and the handicapped; fighting to keep harden [sic] criminals behind bars, working to swiftly implement the death penalty when called for, and supporting the victims right to restitution; eradicating pornography; standing resolutely against the homosexual agenda; eliminating the oppressive Vehicle license tax

    Vershchoor doesn’t give any details of his memberships or his "issues of concern." Probably just as well - he has accepted gifts from the Church of Scientiology."

    http://scienceblogs.com/strangerfrui..._that_will.php

    It makes me so angry when people demand evidence but give none in return!

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    This is great. Now let's see what kind of excuse they come up with.

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    I've posted this letter on a couple boards already so some of you may have seen it before. I think my background makes me an atypical gun proponent, so perhaps it will have an influence on the District 17 Democratic Senator.

    I also strongly believe that people aren't motivated by rational arguments or logical progressions. Only a small portion of the population values a coherent set of beliefs so strongly that the dissonance created by a contradiction forces them to reconsider their views. For that reason, I wrote this letter as more of an emotional appeal... I don't even mention self-defense as a fundamental right.

    Dear Senator Cahill,

    I am generally a stoic and self-reliant individual, but tonight I read a recent news article that so unnerved me I feel compelled to share it. First, though, I think you deserve some background on who I am, and why I care about SB 1214.

    I am a Ph.D student in engineering at ASU, a proud gay rights supporter, registered Democrat, and recreational target shooter. Every third Saturday I join the Phoenix chapter of the Pink Pistols, an organization which promotes responsible firearm ownership among sexual minorities for the purpose of self-defense, for an hour of relaxed target shooting and coffee. It was through them that I learned of SB 1214 and the security it may provide college students like myself.

    I support the policy of allowing licensed concealed carry permit holders to carry their firearms concealed while on a school's campus. For the purposes of this bill, I believe a school includes K-12 education as well as university and community college campuses, though amendments may have limited that to just higher education at this point.

    I must also admit that I am not particularly thrilled about the general idea of students carrying weapons. However, this initial aversion was substantially quelled when I recognized that most students are under 21 years of age and thus do not qualify for the carry permit (in fact, only 10% of Arizona permit holders are under 30**). Furthermore, obtaining such a permit requires safety training, fingerprinting, and extensive background checks that few individuals interested in aggression would want to undergo. As a student, I would feel much more comfortable if my professors and university faculty were allowed to exercise their right to carry concealed. In Utah concealed carry on college campuses is allowed, and I believe that a similar treatment in Arizona could provide a significant deterrent to school shootings.

    Even if I am wrong on that last point, and the incomprehensible motives that fuel these tragedies remained unaffected, it would not be possible for a rampage, like that which persisted at Virginia Tech and resulted in the deaths of 32 people, to be repeated in the presence of a responsible citizen with their own firearm.

    I realize that we have a campus and city police force. They are presumably well-trained, in addition to being, in my personal experience, extremely polite and courteous to innocent inquiries. This is a clear and obvious objection to the points which I have raised. However, the tragic events at Virginia Tech and NIU have given me reason to believe that, despite the real safety that our security services provide, in moments of sudden violence victims must often find themselves shockingly alone. Only a few hours ago, I received yet another reminder. I forward you this story, in which a woman was murdered this morning in her home, while on the phone with the local 911 dispatcher.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/20/....ap/index.html

    I hope you also recognize the need for self-reliant self-defense, and that our campuses are currently unprotected by that standard. Thank you for taking the time to read my concerns.

    Belus
    Graduate Research Assistant
    Department
    Arizona State University
    **http://www.azdps.gov/ccw/Stats.htm

    ---- Reproduced below is a copy of the CNN article from this afternoon. ----
    Gunshots bring abrupt end to frantic 911 callWEST COVINA, California (AP)

    A woman was asking a 911 dispatcher for help when her pleas were interrupted by gunshots, then silence.

    She was shot to death.

    The woman told the dispatcher someone was trying to break into her home in upscale West Covina, Los Angeles County sheriff's Lt. Dan Rosenberg said.

    "Deputies heard gunshots followed by silence and an open phone line," he said.
    Deputies arrived at the house, 20 miles east of Los Angeles, a few minutes after Wednesday's late morning call.

    The woman, whose name was not released by police, had been shot several times. Paramedics pronounced her dead at the scene.

    "At this point we believe it was a burglary gone awry," Rosenberg said.
    Investigators are trying to determine if anything was taken, Deputy Luis Castro said.

    While police were investigating the shooting, a man arrived at the home asking about his wife.

    When he heard that the woman had been shot and killed, he collapsed and started to cry, saying "No! She just called me. You lie." The man was placed in a patrol car and taken to a sheriff's station, police said.

    Witnesses said they saw one or more men running from the house, Rosenberg said. Investigators used bloodhounds to conduct yard-to-yard searches.
    No arrests had been made by Thursday morning, deputies said.

    As a precaution during the search, a high school and an elementary school were locked down for about two hours, police Lt. Dan Brooks said.

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    I have received the following notification via E-mail - this is the last week for SB 1214 to come up for a vote on the floor of the Senate. Otherwise it will die. Please contact Senator O'Halleran to request his support of SB 1214 in its current unamended form, I've called him (left a Voicemail) & I've sent an e-mail. Below was the notification I received:

    Senator O'Halleran is the holdout, the one last Republican vote they're trying to secure. He wants people to have to take another shooting test to be able to carry on campus. As the bill only applies to CCWs, to get a CCW you already have to take a shooting test, so this is just more useless B.S. to make it more difficult than it already is (need a CCW to do it). I need everyone to call/email O'Halleran to let him know that requiring another test is useless and to urge his support for SB 1214, UN-AMENDED! Senator Tom O'Halleran tohalleran@azleg.gov Room 303A 602-926-5584 (phone) 602-417-3101 (Fax)

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    My letter is off to the fine senator as well. Let's work this guys! We need a victory here.

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    Arizonans - call your Senator to request support of SB 1214 - it should be scheduled for debate this coming Tuesday which will be the deadline to get it passed by the Senate just in time to get it scheduled for a Hearing in the House by the deadline of next Thursday. Otherwise it will become a dead bill. An amendment was required to gain last few required votes, for full details as well as a link to the amendment, see this post:

    http://dustinsgunblog.blogspot.com/2...on-campus.html

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    SB 1214 stalled in the Senate and is dead this session. You can read more on the AzCDL news page dated 4/8/08.

    Fred

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    I think that guns in schools are a good idea. It would make people less appt. to go shoot every one up cause the fist sighn of them pulling the firearm out someone else would have seen it and already pulled theres. The whole thing about the not knowing who the shooter was ask the kids and teachers most likely they all will say the same thing the real shooter will have been shot and probably killed. If they are saying "the kids wont know how to use them" add it to PE and have them go through training. Guns are for safty look at the past if they had guns on School grounds
    most of the people would not have been killed.

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    Notso wrote:
    In the context of a school shooting, for example, he said the prospect of additional weapons in the hands of faculty or even students could "exacerbate the situation" when police arrive on scene and are trying to quickly identify the assailant.


    Comments like that drive me crazy. I would like to ask him if he thinks it's much better for the police to arrive and find 20 dead kids/faculty. If memory serves me correctly, at the Utah mall shooting, the police didn't shoot the off-duty officer that had the bgpinned down. Police also didn't shoot thecivilian lady thathad shot the gunman at thechurch in Colorado last month.
    I also agree. You can tell the 911 operator that you are armed or instruct someone else to do it, its not rocket science. Or you identify youself to the responding officers as the one who fired in self defense.

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    mobio wrote:
    Here is a professor at Arizona University arguing against handgun carry on university campus.

    "Anyone who knows Arizona politics won’t be surprised by another dumb proposal being put forward by Thayer Verschoor and Karen Johnson. Both are Republicans. Both have problems with evolution - Verschoor turned up at an Answers in Genesis fundraiser a few years back. Both supported a measure that would have forced instructors to provide alternative material when the material being taught went against the worldview of students. In short, both are culture warriors idiots, pure and simple.

    And if only to prove their idiocy, they are now proposing a bill (SB 1214) that would exempt concealed-carry permit holders from a Arizona law that bars individuals from knowingly carrying deadly weapons onto school property. Yeah, that makes sense. Let’s allow the students carry guns. That should make things more comfortable for the teachers as they fail the little snowflakes. Let’s allow the teachers carry. That should make things better next time they feel threatened by the dumb students contesting their grades.

    Johnson is a member of Gun Owners of America, Arizona Right to Life, Concerned Women for America, Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, Americans for Decency and the NRA. Her "issues of concern" include:

    protecting the rights of parents to determine how and where their children are educated; standing firm for the precious right to life of the unborn, the elderly, and the handicapped; fighting to keep harden [sic] criminals behind bars, working to swiftly implement the death penalty when called for, and supporting the victims right to restitution; eradicating pornography; standing resolutely against the homosexual agenda; eliminating the oppressive Vehicle license tax

    Vershchoor doesn’t give any details of his memberships or his "issues of concern." Probably just as well - he has accepted gifts from the Church of Scientiology."

    http://scienceblogs.com/strangerfrui..._that_will.php

    It makes me so angry when people demand evidence but give none in return!
    That is such a stupid comment for them to make, the students wouldn't be the ones carrying anyway because you have to be 21 to have a CCW in Arizona if I'm not mistaken. Also they don't just hand out CCW's, you have to go through an application process, but they conveniently don't mention that.

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