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Thread: Traveling through California to Arizona

  1. #1
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    I am sorry if there has been any thread of this particular topic but i didnt find anything related...

    So, I have a CPL from Washington state, which I know doesnt count for crap in California because the state thinkins it is better then the rest of the country...haha, this is not intended to be a stab...I just think its funny how strict Cali is...

    I will be traveling thorugh California, probably straight through with stops only for gas and food. I am wondering if someone could give me the low down on a few things just so I know exactly what the answer is.

    1. Can I CC in my vehicle while driving through California?

    2. If I can CC does the pistol have to be loaded / unloaded?

    3. I will probably not want to have the pistol on me the entire drive, a 1911 handle in the rib for 20 hours doesnt sound to fun, can i have the pistol in my glovebox? Loaded / Unloaded?

    4. I will be transporting several rifles / shotguns in the back of the rental truck, is there any laws pertaining to the state of these guns?

    Last time I ran through AZ I took all of my guns apart and put the pieces in different pockets in my mgas so I could never be told I was carrying any firearms in Cali, I have always been fearful of Cali...thanks for all your answers...I want to make sure I can get my guns to AZ....

    ~Rook

  2. #2
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    1. Can I CC in my vehicle while driving through California?
    No.
    Code:
    CA Penal Code 12025.
    Code:
    (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
    Code:
     (1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
    2. If I can CC does the pistol have to be loaded / unloaded?
    N/A
    3. I will probably not want to have the pistol on me the entire drive, a 1911 handle in the rib for 20 hours doesnt sound to fun, can i have the pistol in my glovebox? Loaded / Unloaded?
    [quote]No. The glovebox or utility compartment are offlimits
    Code:
    12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
    Code:
     (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
    Code:
     (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
    Code:
     (b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
    Code:
     (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

    4. I will be transporting several rifles / shotguns in the back of the rental truck, is there any laws pertaining to the state of these guns?
    Since these are not "concealable" you should be fine with them locked in the back of the rental vehicle as long as they are unloaded.
    You can OPEN CARRY unloaded in your vehicle if you keep a few things in mind. Unloaded means no ammo in or attached to the handgun. If you have the empty handgun on one side in a "belt holster" it is not considered concealed. The penal codedoes not address whether shoulder holsters are considered concealed. If you have a full magazine on the other side of the belt,XX XX X XXXXXX,the gun is still not considered "loaded". One thing to be aware of is CA Penal Code 626.9 and to not "knowingly" carry into a school zone. If you stick to the freeway, there should be no reasonable way for you to know when you are in a school zone. Per 626.9 a school zone is anywhere within 1000 feet of a K-12 public or private school property.

    "Edited to remove "or in a pocket" In People v Hale, a concealed loaded magazine was ruled to be a concealed firearm. So keep the magazines on the belt.

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    Alright. How about this...

    If I put all my guns and ammo in the back of the rental truck should I bo good to go?

    I just dont want to get in trouble...make it through California as quickly as possible...

  4. #4
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Yes, you can do that under protection of Federal Law, if you can't reach it from the passenger compartment, and the guns are unloaded.

    U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Paragraph 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms.



    Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

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    Awesome. Thanks...now I feel good.

  6. #6
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    Decoligny wrote:
    You can OPEN CARRY unloaded in your vehicle if you keep a few things in mind. Unloaded means no ammo in or attached to the handgun. If you have the empty handgun on one side in a "belt holster" it is not considered concealed. The penal code does not address whether shoulder holsters are considered concealed. If you have a full magazine on the other side of the belt, or in a pocket, the gun is still not considered "loaded". One thing to be aware of is CA Penal Code 626.9 and to not "knowingly" carry into a school zone. If you stick to the freeway, there should be no reasonable way for you to know when you are in a school zone. Per 626.9 a school zone is anywhere within 1000 feet of a K-12 public or private school property.

    Almost right...

    You are right that nothing in 12031 or any other statute I'm aware of says you can't have a loaded magazine on your belt. It simply cannot be "in a firing position" (i.e. loaded magazine in the mag well). This is made very clear by the appeals court in People v Clark.

    However, another appeals court ruling (I don't recall the case right now) declares that a magazine can be considered to be a firearm under 12025. The case in question was for a man convicted of concealing a firearm - he had a pistol on the seat, but a magazine (empty, I think) partially under the seat. The ruling defines (paraphrasing) 'any part integral to the operation of the firearm' (i.e frame, barrel, magazine) can be considered the same as the entire firearm. Apparantly the court was unaware that firearms can operate without a magazine inserted... welcome to CA...


    Also, you can legally carry loaded when not in incorporated areas. I'm not sure if the freeway is considered to be 'incorporated' into the town it passes through. I would probably not carry loaded, just to be safe. However, if your stops for food/gas are in unincorporated areas, you could carry loaded there. (I'm guessing you're much more likely to need your firearm in a truckstop than you are driving down the freeway...)

    The other option that occurred to me is to simply ignore the gun laws and hope you don't get pulled over for speeding, etc. However, most gas stations sell donuts, so there's always a chance there's going to be a cop there.

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  7. #7
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    There are only three definitions of "loaded" in the PC. The first is in 171 and deals with a firearm within, the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento, or within the residence of the Governor or other elected State officials, and reads as follows:

    171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections 171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.


    The other two read almost identically to each other and are from 12031

    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
    attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


    And from 626.9

    (j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in
    the barrel or cylinder.


    I believe that the caselaw you were referring is People v. Hale 1974. It defined the magazine aspart of the actual weapononly in terms of it being concealed, not in reference to it constituting aloaded weapon. In this case, the magazine was loaded and concealed, so the court upheld the concealed weapon charge. If the magazine was not concealed, the entire case would have unraveled as it would not constitute a loaded weapon per the Penal Codes exactingdefinition.

    In People v. Clark, they found that the statutes must be read constructively, so applying that methodology tothis definition,the pertinant section should be broken down as follows:

    A firearm shall be deemed loaded when:

    a. there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot in, or attached in any manner to the firearm including but not limited to:

    1. in the firing chamber of the firearm,

    2. in the magazine attached to the firearm,

    3.in theclip attached to the firearm.

    I am sure that uninformed LEOs would first try to apply the 171 definition and bust you for carrying a loaded weapon just because you have both the gun and ammo on in your immediate possession. But this is where we need to know what the law actually says, and where we need to keep a gun friendly lawyer on retainer.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Why not avoid CA all together.

    OR(OC legal some resrtictions), NV(OC legal)will lead to to AZ and it might cost you less, fuel, food, lodgingand tax on said items.

    Or you could try ID, UT to AZ your WA permit will be honored.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
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    Agent19 wrote:
    Why not avoid CA all together.
    I agree completely... wether it be for passing through, vacation, or permanent living (hence my relocation to New Hampshire in the near future).
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    Its a pleasure to see a fellow free-stater in the mix. I also suggest avoiding California, I'm in the military, currently serving in Iraq, but know how hard it is to incorporate firearms in even the simplest ways in California. I plan to move as soon as I finish school. See you in New Hampshire!

  11. #11
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    Years agoI travelled thru CA with a handgun in my brief case, combo locked (barely), in the passenger seat, magazine out - it seems to me that this is still legal in CA; futherr, on many or most of the roads thru CA, you will be in unincorp. areas and could carry openly and loaded if you want, provided you knew where you were.

  12. #12
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    Do all your tail lights work? Do you drive just 5-10 over the limit? Wear your seatbelt? If yes, you should be fine. Keep everything else letter of the law. Mail your "high caps" to your new loc. Lock everything except your self defense gun in the trunk. Enjoy the drive.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Years agoI travelled thru CA with a handgun in my brief case, combo locked (barely), in the passenger seat, magazine out - it seems to me that this is still legal in CA; futherr, on many or most of the roads thru CA, you will be in unincorp. areas and could carry openly and loaded if you want, provided you knew where you were.
    Mag out in the locked briefcase is legal.

    Loading even in unincorporated areas is still a no-no because it'illegal "in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory" and "as used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon" and finally there is PC 374F which makes shooting from any road illegal, which in turn makes loading illegal on any public road.

    See http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf







  14. #14
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Mag out in the locked briefcase is legal.

    Loading even in unincorporated areas is still a no-no because it'illegal "in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory" and "as used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon" and finally there is PC 374F which makes shooting from any road illegal, which in turn makes loading illegal on any public road.

    See http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf






    Sorry to nitpick, but there was a small inaccuracy. Its subdivision 'c' not 'F'.

    374c. Every person who shoots any firearm from or upon a public
    road or highway is guilty of a misdemeanor.

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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Sorry to nitpick, but there was a small inaccuracy. Its subdivision 'c' not 'F'.

    374c. Every person who shoots any firearm from or upon a public
    road or highway is guilty of a misdemeanor.
    Thanks for the correction. I had "f" on the brain and mistyped. I'm so used to typing (f) in response to both 12025 and 12031 questions.



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    MudCamper wrote:
    Loading even in unincorporated areas is still a no-no because it'illegal "in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory" and "as used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon" and finally there is PC 374F which makes shooting from any road illegal, which in turn makes loading illegal on any public road.

    See http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf
    Just wanted to point out this is just one interpretation. To my knowledge this has not been tested in court... not that you would want to become a test case... I know I don't.
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