Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: OC in a NCC public library

  1. #1
    Regular Member dave_in_delaware's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newark, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    OK, I've been wondering about OC in a New Castle County public library. I can't recall any signs prohibiting it, but then again I've never really looked for such signs.

    Wynder, and anyone else familiar w/ the Laws, please evaluate these rules and apply them to any sources/annotations you may have so we can come up w/ the "legitimacy" of prohibiting lawful OC in the PUBLIC library.... Thanks!

    OK, to start, let's assume there are NO signs prohibiting weapons. Even if there were, let's argue the rules anyway (see below).

    The Patron Code of Conduct ("Policy") states (obviously edited for pertinent info only):
    To ensure the continued safety and comfort of our patrons and staff, please observe the following:
    1. Disruptive conduct is prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to:

    • Fighting, threats, or weapons in the library


    So, it sounds to me that no weapons are permitted in the library... but.... they lumped it into fighting and threats. OC isn't threatening if done correctly.

    Besides, the public libraryisn't a private institution (or private property), right? So the "owner" of the property can't arbitrarily decide "no guns," right? Since it's public, my rights to open carry a weapon can't be denied, correct?

    Let's dig deeper....

    In the Staff Guidelines for Library User Behavior handbook, the Introduction states that

    These guidelines are designed to help New Castle County library staff to identify and handle problem behavior. The emphasis is on problem behavior rather than problem library users in order to increase staff awareness that labeling library users as problems usually does not contribute to constructive problem solving.

    Would OC of a handgun for personal protection be considered "problem behavior"??

    Furthermore, it states that

    The library staff has the responsibility to protect the safety of all library users and fellow staff members, to maintain the security of library property within the library, and to maintain order and the security of library property. The
    Library User Code of Conduct includes a list of unacceptable behaviors. The behaviors are unacceptable because they violate the rights of others to use the public facility, which is to be safe and accessible for everyone. Unacceptable library user behavior requires intervention by staff. When there is a serious immediate threat to the personal safety of staff or library users, act quickly to protect them. Call police, medical help, fire department, or when necessary, leave the building or take other reasonable and necessary steps. Eccentric behavior, which does not disturb others, does not require intervention by the staff. Sometimes it is difficult to evaluate when eccentric behavior becomes a problem behavior. Supervisors should be consulted in determining what action, if any, should be taken.
    How does my lawful OC of a firearm violate the rights of others to USE the PUBLIC facility? And if they want "safe" then why wouldn't they want a law-abiding citizen to OC a firearm since "use of force for the protection of others" is a defense against criminal liability for us?

    Digging deeper, the Library User Code of Conduct states:

    The New Castle County Library System provides public library services without discrimination to persons seeking information and knowledge through the use of the library's materials, programs and equipment. To provide such services efficiently and effectively, the New Castle County Library System has adopted the following
    Library User Code of Conduct, pursuant to current 9 Del. C. Sections 801 and 1101.

    ...

    3. Library users shall not bring a weapon into the library or engage in any activity which any other library user or library staff would reasonably regard as threatening.

    Unless I was looking at the wrong statute, 9 Del. C. Sections 801 and 1101 doesn't say anything about "no weapons." And number 3 forbids me to bring a weapon into the library. Period.

    Hmmm.... is there some sort of contradiction of rights here? Could we have an argument (similar to an illegal park ordnance) that denying OC in a public library is indeed violating our constitutional rights (or something like that)? Or is it OK because it's a County library system?

    I'd like to get everyone's opinion on this before calling them and arguing my point.

    Thanks!

    Dave
    Co-Founder & Global Moderator
    Delaware Open Carry

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New Castle, DE, ,
    Posts
    82

    Post imported post

    I was just thinking about this last night, was gonna ask in a new thread but now I don't have to. I'd like to know too.

  3. #3
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bear, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    1,241

    Post imported post

    dave_in_delaware wrote:
    OK, I've been wondering about OC in a New Castle County public library. I can't recall any signs prohibiting it, but then again I've never really looked for such signs.


    My opinion? Look at the name here... "New Castle County Public Library," which would indicate to me that it's an organization of the county and, thus, subject to the state/county pre-emption laws, so they can't legally prohibit it. May want to give them a call and ask if they're funded by the county.

  4. #4
    Regular Member dave_in_delaware's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newark, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    I think the Code of Conduct's reference to "9 Del. C. Sections 801 and 1101" is a bunch of gibberish, trying to "justify" their rules.

    TITLE 9 Counties, Provisions Affecting All Counties, CHAPTER 8 COUNTY LIBRARIES, Subchapter I General Purposes:

    § 801. Creation of county library agency; powers of county library administrator.

    (a) The government of each county shall create a library agency as a part of the executive branch of county government and, in accordance therewith, shall have the power:

    (1) To establish and administer a county library system offering to residents of the county access to services and resources and guidance in their use. Each county may create a countywide library system offering free and equal access to such services and resources to every resident of the county, or each county may create library districts within the county supported by taxes levied upon real property within said districts as provided for in this chapter providing that county residents who are not residents of a library district shall have access to such library district's services and resources upon payment of a fee set by ordinance of the county;

    (2) To receive, by taxation or otherwise, accept, administer and expend any money, materials or other aid granted, appropriated or otherwise provided by local, state or federal governments, or by any source, public or private, in accordance with the terms thereof, for the purposes provided in this chapter;

    (3) To perform all other activities pertinent to the organizational function of the library agency.

    (b) The county executive or president of levy court, whichever applies, upon the approval of the county library advisory board, may appoint a county library administrator who shall be referred to as county librarian, or the county library manager in New Castle County, who shall be the administrator of the county library agency. (59 Del. Laws, c. 480, § 2; 60 Del. Laws, c. 162, § 1; 71 Del. Laws, c. 401, § 13.)
    and TITLE 9 Counties, New Castle County, CHAPTER 11 COUNTY EXECUTIVE AND COUNTY COUNCIL, Subchapter I Powers of the Government of New Castle County:


    § 1101. General powers.

    (a) Granted. -- The Government of New Castle County as established by this chapter shall assume and have all powers which, under the Constitution of this State, it would be competent for the General Assembly to grant by specific enumeration, and which are not denied by statute, including, but not limited to, any powers conferred prior to May 26, 1965, by the General Assembly upon New Castle County, or upon the Levy Court of New Castle County, or upon the Levy Court Commissioners of New Castle County, or upon the officers or employees of New Castle County, or upon counties generally, or upon Levy Court Commissioners generally. This grant of power includes the power to fix the tax rate upon the assessed valuation of all real property in New Castle County subject to assessment by the County. This grant of power further includes the power to fix the fees of the Recorder of Deeds in New Castle County for services, any statute denying such right to the contrary notwithstanding. This grant of power does not include the power to enact private or civil law concerning civil relationships, except as incident to the exercise of an expressly granted power, and does not include the power to define and provide for the punishment of felonies. This grant of power shall also include the power to impose and collect by ordinance a tax upon the transfer of real property situate within the unincorporated areas of the County, subject to the conditions and limitations provided in § 8102 of this title.

    (b) Construction. -- The powers of New Castle County shall be construed liberally in favor of the County, and specific mention of particular powers in this title shall not be construed as limiting in any way the general powers stated herein. (9 Del. C. 1953, § 1101; 55 Del. Laws, c. 85, § 1; 57 Del. Laws, c. 768, § 1; 67 Del. Laws, c. 415, § 2; 71 Del. Laws, c. 400, § 1.)
    I don't know, maybe I'm blind (I do wear glasses you know), or maybe I have the wrong statutes, but I don't see anywhere in these sections (especially the underlined parts) where it says the library can make up their own rules independent of County government. All these sections say is that the County may create a library system, NOT enact rules and regulations that contradict the State Constitution.

    Can I get an "Amen"? LOL.....

    What's everyone's take on this?

    I guess I'll ask the AG's office and call the libraryon this....
    Dave
    Co-Founder & Global Moderator
    Delaware Open Carry

  5. #5
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bear, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    1,241

    Post imported post

    You know where I stand.

  6. #6
    Regular Member dave_in_delaware's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newark, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    Yeah, and I *almost* stopped by the library tonight on the way home, too. Decided to go to the gas station and liquor store instead. LOL.
    Dave
    Co-Founder & Global Moderator
    Delaware Open Carry

  7. #7
    Regular Member dave_in_delaware's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newark, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    Wynder wrote:
    My opinion? Look at the name here... "New Castle County Public Library," which would indicate to me that it's an organization of the county and, thus, subject to the state/county pre-emption laws, so they can't legally prohibit it. May want to give them a call and ask if they're funded by the county.
    I just called them. They said that they:

    1. are a County agency, part of the New Castle County government, and

    2. are funded by the State and County.

    So, it sounds like I should be good to go inside"strapped" ... although for some reason my mind ispicturing seeing "no guns" signs outside the entrance.

    I'll practically be next door tonight, so I'll have to see what's what....
    Dave
    Co-Founder & Global Moderator
    Delaware Open Carry

  8. #8
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bear, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    1,241

    Post imported post

    Did you ask them how the No Weapons sign was being inforced and under what authority?

  9. #9
    Regular Member dave_in_delaware's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newark, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    Well, my mind was definitely remembering some sort of sign on the entrance doors, but it was "no cellphones" and "no food/drink," so I went in (I did look for "no guns" but there weren't any). I did expect one of the employees to say something... eventually... since I was all over the library. I went to the catalog (computer search) area to look up some stuff, then upstairs to the nonfiction, then to the reference desk to ask about one of their "microform" entries, then back downstairs to the DVD section, even kids movies, then the new/used books area, then to the catalog again, and back upstairs for another search of other books.

    I was even across from or near employees' offices (w/ the glass where they can see out), having employees walk past me, patrons were sitting almost right next to my gun when I was looking for books in the aisles, even the reference desk employee got up and helped me look for the "microform" thing and another employee came right out of a door next to me while I was squatting down looking for something (gun was on her side of view). And...

    ... Nothing! Not one word, from anyone, not even the kids that were there.

    So either the library is OK w/ weapons inside (despite their own rules), or they thought I was LEO and "allowed" to carry, or no one even noticed.

    I'm guessing it's the "no one noticed" option.
    Dave
    Co-Founder & Global Moderator
    Delaware Open Carry

  10. #10
    Regular Member dave_in_delaware's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newark, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    So, has anyone else OC'd in a NCC library?? What was your experience and others' reactions??
    Dave
    Co-Founder & Global Moderator
    Delaware Open Carry

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •