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Thread: "Dangling A Carrot" for the Antis

  1. #1
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    Well, as I stated in my post about my experiences on Lobby Day, I was very impressed with one young lady there for the Anti crowd, and I've been trying to come up with something for most everyone, and this is whatI have so far...

    Let's start with some background, and I'd appreciate any comments pro or con by the way, sort of things we probably generally can agree on...

    1. Neither side really wants BG's or Looney Tunes to be able to have access to any weapons, including firearms. Our side realizes that there is precious little if anything that can realistically be done to prevent a determined personfrom obtaining them, so we do what we feel is necessary to try and avoid becoming their victim. Some of the Antis seem to be willing to concede that point, although grudgingly, while some seem to think they can really have an affect on the way criminals operate. Some of themactually believe that with back ground checks of private sales at gun shows they can make it harder for BG's, etc., to obtain firearms. They don't seem to understand that to the criminal mindset, it is much harder to get up in the morning, belegitimately employed, and make a positive contribution to society, that it is much easier for the criminal to simply dispense with civility, rules, laws,conscience, and respect in order toachieve their "goals".

    2.The Police and the Antis seem to love the (improperly named) "Gun Buy-Back",programs where firearms are "turned in" or exchanged for money with no questions asked. No doubt the criminals look upon this favorably too. I personally don't get too much heartburn from this, so...

    Why don't the police just go to the gun shows and buy up all of theguns being offered for private sales? It's hard for me to imaginecriminals trying to outbid police officers for all those "choice" firearms just so they could avoid a background check, and the Looney Tunes..., remember, just because they're crazy, it doesn't mean they're stupid too!

    Well, gotta go for tonight. You guys kick this around and see what gives. Tune it up, tweak it, run it up the flagpole and salute it, or run it out of town on a rail, I'm interested in whatever you bring. I know funding for them is an issue, but they seem to find it for the "Buy-Backs" don't they?

    The young lady I met and we spoke to on Lobby Day really was trying to look at all sides, she just didn't realize there were so many. I feel obligated to try to offer her / them something in good faith. I just wish I'd had more time there, dang it.

    I hope I got this to General Discussion, or at least the Virginia page. Help me out guys, I'd appreciate it.




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    1. I agree with what you wrote here. The conversationI had with a guy who was at the protest, we both agreed that letting crazy people have guns was a bad thing - but the point he missed was that Cho passed the background check. Just how helpful is it in that situation? It's not, because the "background check" probably doesn't hit the right spots - but I'll just leave it at that. So if it fails in a "Cho like situation" where a background check is run, what's the push to do it in private sales? In that last sentence is the real problem. In either case, it's not likely to catch a crazy person, and unfortunately we have proof.

    2. Gun buy back, aside from the silly name, the catch-22 with this program is that you potentially let criminals slip through the cracks either way you go. I guess what's the greater good for society as a whole comes into play here, but that's iffy at best. Do you let a (hypothetical situation being described) serial killer dispose of his guns across the US at these programs, so they are never traced back to him; or do you register everyone who turns one in to get their cash, and reduce the turn out and getting guns used by people who shouldn't have them off the street? That is a tough nut to crack there.

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    The police don't have anywhere close to the funds it would take to buy out a gun show. They can fund a buy back because the are offering very little for the guns (I really don't know whe people don't just take them to a show, you could get more for it without even haggling. But I digress.) There is no way sellers at a show would take what the police give at a buy back.

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    sidestreet wrote:
    Why don't the police just go to the gun shows and buy up all of theguns being offered for private sales? It's hard for me to imaginecriminals trying to outbid police officers for all those "choice" firearms just so they could avoid a background check, and the Looney Tunes..., remember, just because they're crazy, it doesn't mean they're stupid too!

    There are gun shows almost every weekend. In fact, there are probably several shows each weekend in each state where legal. The police would have to have an unlimited budget and a fleet of trucks to transport their purchases!!!

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    IMO... The police do not really want to work these buy back programs.....

    This is something generated from high above where the request is made and money is provided for the purchases. The police have no true need to rid the community of guns and believe it or not... many police do support the rights of the citizens to actually own them. I know of only one cop that thinks all guns should be banned and when he said it... everyone else jumped on him.

    The buy back program like what is offered in DC is just a "feel good" event that is done to do nothing more than make it appear that the police are doing something about gun crime.

    We all know that the bad guys are not taking their guns if to collect $50.00 when that gun can yield so much more when used in an armed robbery. I have seen the lines and old women are taking in their guns their deceased husbands had previously owned. Some guns do not even function or are worth far less than the money given.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    First I want to commend you on your open-mindedness and willingness to talk and seek understanding.

    It seems most have jumped on the gun buyback idea, which is really not practical. First, gun buybacks usually offer $50-100 per firearm, and most sold by private sellers are sold because they're worth far more. I don't recall ever seeing a handgun from a private seller for less than $300 (though I've not, of course, seen them all). Private sellers don't sell junk or unworking guns at least at shows, because the buyers there are more likely to know what they're buying.

    Taking one or more to a gun show and discussing the real facts might be a good idea. For example, when Massengil and/or his cronies start stating that 25-50% of sales at gun shows are from unlicensed sellers, point out that most of those sales are NOT firearms. Point out FBI statistics that show somewhere around 0.7% of all guns used in crimes come from gun shows, and of those, some (maybe most; we don't know) were bought legally and then stolen.

    You got lucky in meeting someone willing to listen. Many of them don't - just like many of us are so interested in making our point we don't listen to others (yes, it has to be said). The issue in general, I believe, is that you have one group of people arguing from the side of logic, and another from emotion. In any issue, you cannot "combat" (for lack of a better word) emotion with logic or logic with emotion. The key in conducting an effective dialog is to see both. XD owner recently posted a great post on the types of things that would be emotional arguments. Those of us who choose to advocate our position would do well to have some of those in our toolbox.

    My mind is still tossing ideas of how to get our message out without responding to someone else's (which gives them the upper hand) using an emotional approach - to reach those who don't think logically (if you know MBTI theory, to those who are xxFx instead of xxTx). I hope to have some ideas soon to toss to the group as you have with this.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Thanks guys, you all make great points. Just so weall understand, fogrider and acrimsontide, I wasn't advocating "buying out" any gun shows, and maybeI haven't been to enough of them or noticed all the private gun sales that are going on. My perspective is that I've just haven't seen a lot of private gun sales (Gosh, are there really that many? I'll have to take your word for it, or maybe I'm not using proper terminology.) take place at gun shows, and most of what I've seen offered was not something I'd even be interested inor be willing to pay for, and sothe "choice" firearms comment was really "tongue in cheek".

    Most importantly, I'dlike to say that I'm truly sorry for making the "Looney Tunes" comments, that was very inappropriate and extremely insensitive, again I sincerely apologize. I have members of my own family with mental health situations and we deal with them almost daily, Iknow better. I have a family member that suffers from debilitating mental health issues, but is just incredibly smart and hasan amazing memory.

    I really didn't expect this idea to to be adopted, but I see it as a way to put something out there to the Antis to chew on, put the ball back in their court so to speak, especially when they start the "Well, if it could save even one life" mantra. I mean c'mon, Antis, put your money where your mouth is, donate money to your police departments, it must be worth it if it could save even one life, right?

    This is the only thing I have come up with so far that 1. doesn't infringe on private sales, 2. gets a number of guns off the streets (and here again, I realize that not all these guns are in great shape, but when a BG is pointing one at me, I'm not going to waste time appraising it's viability,whether it's a gun, real or not, old, new, crappy, great orjust their finger pointing from inside a sweatshirt, it's a threat!), 3. uses a method already employed by some P.D.'s, 4. basically accomplishes what the most naive members of the Anti crowd actually believe about the (non existent) gun show loophole, that they "don't want to ban guns, they just don't want criminals to have easy access to guns". We know that's not true, and that some of those young folks out there are being used by the gun control crowd to "stick a foot in the door" for registration and then confiscation. 5. To top it off, this still would not address the many other ways that guns are illegally acquired, at gun shows or elsewhere, hence would come the need (in the Anti'sminds) for even more gun restricting / controllaws.

    Yesbohdi, you are so right, the point that Cho went through the background checks, waited 30 days, etc.,seems to sail right over the Anti's heads, whetheron purpose or not,it doesn't seem to register with them. That's what Ifind so frustrating about the whole VT / gun show "non connection", the whole concept is "nonsequitur". To me it's like someone saying "Water is precious! We have to try to save it all!" so they are bent on fixing an extremely slow dripping faucet in somebody's kitchen, "because"the neighborhoodvandalsare blowing holes in the community center swimming pool!?!?!?

    Tess, you rock! Just don't ever stop!!!

    So thanks again guys, sorry for not getting back sooner, somebody's gotta make the doughnuts!

    And again, I'm very and sincerely sorry for my crude and insensitive remarks concerning persons with mental health issues.




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    re: gun "buy-back" -- obviously the police never sold the guns in the first place...

    but in all seriousness -- where do the Anti's think the police get the money for these "buy backs"?

    Taxes....





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    Carolina40 wrote:
    re: gun "buy-back" -- obviously the police never sold the guns in the first place...

    but in all seriousness -- where do the Anti's think the police get the money for these "buy backs"?

    Well, they extort it from the dealers in the form of fees and taxes, so they are "buying back" your gun with your own money.

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    I see no reason to offer any form of carrot to them. Their objective is clear. My opposition to that objective should be just as clear.



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    I saw a cartoon once that had a shady looking character getting paid at a gun buy back for turning in a rusty revolver. Above is head in a bubble his thoughts were expressed, " three hundred more and I can buy an automatic".

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    Some guns do not even function or are worth far less than the money given.
    I'm guessing you meant worth far more than the money given? Breaks my heart to see things like Garands and such turned in for a $50 gift card.

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    Carolina40 wrote:
    re: gun "buy-back" -- obviously the police never sold the guns in the first place...

    but in all seriousness -- where do the Anti's think the police get the money for these "buy backs"?

    Taxes....



    There's the point. If they are using MY money to get the gun, then it's either a straw purchase (I know - wishgful dreaming) or it's MY gun 'cause I paid for it with MY money.

    It's mine! Gimme!

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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