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Machine guns and silencers and DDs in WA

Bear 45/70

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expvideo wrote:
John Hardin wrote:
Agent 47 wrote:
Because no exception is needed, LEO's do not use contrivances they use silencers.
Quoth 9.41.250:

(c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm,
I agree a potato or pop bottle could be characterized as a "contrivance," but in what way is a silencer (a.k.a. suppressor) not a "device for suppressing the noise of (a) firearm"?

Edited: Can you provide a cite (AG opinion, case law, etc.) for your interpretation? I'd love for that to be the case, but a straight reading of the plain text of the law doesn't really suggest that to me.

So I believe that what Agent47 is saying is that not only is a silencer not a contrivance, which none of us will argue against, but it is not a "device" either, it is a registered silencer. This is a very loose interpretation, but because there is no exemption for law enforcement, but they use them on a regular basis, due to the satute of limitations, the law would have to be interpretted that way.

So because of the way that the law is practiced in reality gives us a definition of device as anything other than a registered silencer.



Am I correct Agent47?
Just get caught using a silencer and see what the court case cost you regardless of anybody here's interpretation because what they think here does count.
 

Agent 47

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
expvideo wrote:
So I believe that what Agent47 is saying is that not only is a silencer not a contrivance, which none of us will argue against, but it is not a "device" either, it is a registered silencer. This is a very loose interpretation, but because there is no exemption for law enforcement, but they use them on a regular basis, due to the satute of limitations, the law would have to be interpretted that way.

So because of the way that the law is practiced in reality gives us a definition of device as anything other than a registered silencer.



Am I correct Agent47?
Just get caught using a silencer and see what the court case cost you regardless of anybody here's interpretation because what they think here does count.

I have talked to several people who have been "caught" using them and as I said the most common outcome is the officer asking to shoot it, if not simply bidding good day and leaving the shooter to shoot in peace. Of course as we all know from our experience open carrying that an individual officers mood or opinion can do more to effect a confrontation than any laws on the books or definitions therein. That is why I would love to see an AG opinion or solid case law to back up the above interpretation of subsection C. If it ever came to a court case the court would have only two options, Interpret the law as I have, or rule using silencers is indeed illegal and arrest severalthousand officers throughout the state. even if they made an exception for law enforcement that would simply reinforce the notion that it was illegal and within the statute of limitations they would still have to retroactively charge every police officer with a gross misdemeanor.

expvideo, That's about the whole of it.
 

heywoodjablowme

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Agent 47 wrote:
I have talked to several people who have been "caught" using them and as I said the most common outcome is the officer asking to shoot it, if not simply bidding good day and leaving the shooter to shoot in peace. Of course as we all know from our experience open carrying that an individual officers mood or opinion can do more to effect a confrontation than any laws on the books or definitions therein. That is why I would love to see an AG opinion or solid case law to back up the above interpretation of subsection C. If it ever came to a court case the court would have only two options, Interpret the law as I have, or rule using silencers is indeed illegal and arrest severalthousand officers throughout the state. even if they made an exception for law enforcement that would simply reinforce the notion that it was illegal and within the statute of limitations they would still have to retroactively charge every police officer with a gross misdemeanor.

expvideo, That's about the whole of it.

So several thousand officers own or use These devices? Cause I know quite a few and I know of none that USE them, of course mabey again I am missinformd? But then folks like 47 spend countless hours researching the law.
 

Agent 47

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heywoodjablowme wrote:
Agent 47 wrote:
I have talked to several people who have been "caught" using them and as I said the most common outcome is the officer asking to shoot it, if not simply bidding good day and leaving the shooter to shoot in peace. Of course as we all know from our experience open carrying that an individual officers mood or opinion can do more to effect a confrontation than any laws on the books or definitions therein. That is why I would love to see an AG opinion or solid case law to back up the above interpretation of subsection C. If it ever came to a court case the court would have only two options, Interpret the law as I have, or rule using silencers is indeed illegal and arrest severalthousand officers throughout the state. even if they made an exception for law enforcement that would simply reinforce the notion that it was illegal and within the statute of limitations they would still have to retroactively charge every police officer with a gross misdemeanor.

expvideo, That's about the whole of it.

So several thousand officers own or use These devices? Cause I know quite a few and I know of none that USE them, of course mabey again I am missinformd? But then folks like 47 spend countless hours researching the law.
The crucialword is "use"and yes several thousand officers around the state have at one time or another used a silencer. So you know "quite a few officers" do you? have you asked each and every one of them if they have ever used a silencer? I also happen to know quite a fewofficers and a large number of themeven thosenot on SRT or SWAT teams have used them by their own admission. not to mention everyone in the military who has used them in this state, Just a couple weeks ago I was watching the NAVY police department in my range shooting with silencers. Almost every time the topic comes up and an officer is standing nearby he will comment on it "from personal experience" So when you realize that almost every member of special response teams with almost every department has at least received training on silencers and thus used them, as well as a large portion of the rank and file police force who try them out for any reason as well as militaryyou come up with a figure of several thousand officers who have at one time or another used a silencer in this state.
 

Bear 45/70

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Agent 47 wrote:
heywoodjablowme wrote:
Agent 47 wrote:
I have talked to several people who have been "caught" using them and as I said the most common outcome is the officer asking to shoot it, if not simply bidding good day and leaving the shooter to shoot in peace. Of course as we all know from our experience open carrying that an individual officers mood or opinion can do more to effect a confrontation than any laws on the books or definitions therein. That is why I would love to see an AG opinion or solid case law to back up the above interpretation of subsection C. If it ever came to a court case the court would have only two options, Interpret the law as I have, or rule using silencers is indeed illegal and arrest severalthousand officers throughout the state. even if they made an exception for law enforcement that would simply reinforce the notion that it was illegal and within the statute of limitations they would still have to retroactively charge every police officer with a gross misdemeanor.

expvideo, That's about the whole of it.

So several thousand officers own or use These devices? Cause I know quite a few and I know of none that USE them, of course mabey again I am missinformd? But then folks like 47 spend countless hours researching the law.
The crucialword is "use"and yes several thousand officers around the state have at one time or another used a silencer. So you know "quite a few officers" do you? have you asked each and every one of them if they have ever used a silencer? I also happen to know quite a fewofficers and a large number of themeven thosenot on SRT or SWAT teams have used them by their own admission. not to mention everyone in the military who has used them in this state, Just a couple weeks ago I was watching the NAVY police department in my range shooting with silencers. Almost every time the topic comes up and an officer is standing nearby he will comment on it "from personal experience" So when you realize that almost every member of special response teams with almost every department has at least received training on silencers and thus used them, as well as a large portion of the rank and file police force who try them out for any reason as well as militaryyou come up with a figure of several thousand officers who have at one time or another used a silencer in this state.
Sorry, but the US Military is not required to follow state laws or even federal law, never has been. So your example is lacking.
 

Agent 47

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Wow, Bear, even you.... I mean I knew you were a little thick headed but I never thought I would hear you say something that stupid. I gave you more credit than that. Ya got to think before you post buddy, don't let your obsession with me cloud your judgment.
 

heresolong

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Agent 47 wrote:
Wow, Bear, even you.... I mean I knew you were a little thick headed but I never thought I would hear you say something that stupid. I gave you more credit than that.
I find myself in the unusual position of defending Bear (take note please) but if you are going to claim that he said something really stupid the least you could do is quote what it is you believe was stupid and tell us exactly why it is so stupid.
 

Agent 47

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You are right Heresolong, I should have explained myself. I am flabbergasted at Bears statement because the military may not fall under the law but the people who work for the military darn sure do. The law in question is aimed at individuals not government entities, The law offers absolutely no exceptions, for LE or military personnel be they on or off duty. His statement is akin to saying soldiers in the military can do whatever they want because they are in the military and thus are immune from all state and federal law. Every other law aimed at individuals has exceptions provided for it ( when necessary ) for those such individuals who should be exempted. For example off the top of my head, Brandishing, RCW 9.41.270 subsection (3) E. exempts people who are engaged in military activities. Now why would they need to wright that exemption in for the soldiers but not make an exemption for silencers. After all according to Bear they don't need any exemptions they are immune to the law they should be able to walk around brandishing to their hearts content even without subsection 3E. I was never talking about the military being charged with a gross misdemeanor I was talking about all the individuals who work for the military being charged.
 

heresolong

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Agent 47 wrote:
You are right Heresolong, I should have explained myself. I am flabbergasted at Bears statement because the military may not fall under the law but the people who work for the military darn sure do. The law in question is aimed at individuals not government entities, The law offers absolutely no exceptions, for LE or military personnel be they on or off duty. His statement is akin to saying soldiers in the military can do whatever they want because they are in the military and thus are immune from all state and federal law. Every other law aimed at individuals has exceptions provided for it ( when necessary ) for those such individuals who should be exempted. For example off the top of my head, Brandishing, RCW 9.41.270 subsection (3) E. exempts people who are engaged in military activities. Now why would they need to wright that exemption in for the soldiers but not make an exemption for silencers. After all according to Bear they don't need any exemptions they are immune to the law they should be able to walk around brandishing to their hearts content even without subsection 3E. I was never talking about the military being charged with a gross misdemeanor I was talking about all the individuals who work for the military being charged.
I think that what you will find is that military personnel are indeed exempt from state law while performing their duties. If, for example, the military police were to repel an attack at Bremerton sub base just outside the entrance, the state could theoretically charge the members of the military with a variety of state crimes. In reality those charges would be thrown out before they had time to finish filing them. I can't explain why the brandishing law includes an exemption for soldiers (unless it is intended for the national guard units) but if the SEALs needed to send soldiers armed with silenced MP5s and waved them around during an operation I can guarantee you that they would not be charged with anything if it was a legitimate government operation.

As far as being governed by federal law, the military is governed by the UCMJ and subject only to those laws. If ordered by the Commander in Chief, they have the authority to carry out whatever those orders are within the confines of the UCMJ and are not subject to federal laws that say, for example, you can't possess a fully automatic weapon without a special license.

This I think is what Bear was trying to say.
 

Bear 45/70

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Agent 47 wrote:
Wow, Bear, even you.... I mean I knew you were a little thick headed but I never thought I would hear you say something that stupid. I gave you more credit than that. Ya got to think before you post buddy, don't let your obsession with me cloud your judgment.
Have you ever servced you? You haven't a clue what the US Military can do and the only rules they are require to follow are to support and defend the Constitution. Your lack of knowlegde always astounds me whenyou you profess to know so much. Then your type usually think you are all knowing.
 

Agent 47

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Have you ever servced you? You haven't a clue what the US Military can do and the only rules they are require to follow are to support and defend the Constitution. Your lack of knowlegde always astounds me whenyou you profess to know so much. Then your type usually think you are all knowing.

"Have I ever serviced me"??

I do not profess to be "All knowing" I am engaging in an intellectual discussion on an anomaly in the law. You have shown an unhealthy obsession with me ever since I showed how little you know when you were claiming for all to see that If anyone has a silencer in this state they will go to jail, and quite frankly it's disturbing. You seek out my posts and try and start something every time I provide input on a topic you obviously have no experience on the topic at hand and no knowledge to be lent to the discussion. Now on topic The fact that if a soldier would not be charged with using a silencer in a emergency situation is not what I was talking about, I have seen soldiers use silencers simply practicing off base in a civilian gun rangeand it is THAT which would be in violation of subsection C if indeed subsection C means using silencers is illegal. If it is illegal for some than it is illegal for all no exceptions means no exceptions. now if it is legal to use real silencers than nobody has broken any laws and we can all live happily ever after.
 

Bear 45/70

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Agent 47 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Have you ever servced you? You haven't a clue what the US Military can do and the only rules they are require to follow are to support and defend the Constitution. Your lack of knowlegde always astounds me whenyou you profess to know so much. Then your type usually think you are all knowing.

"Have I ever serviced me"??

I do not profess to be "All knowing" I am engaging in an intellectual discussion on an anomaly in the law. You have shown an unhealthy obsession with me ever since I showed how little you know when you were claiming for all to see that If anyone has a silencer in this state they will go to jail, and quite frankly it's disturbing. You seek out my posts and try and start something every time I provide input on a topic you obviously have no experience on the topic at hand and no knowledge to be lent to the discussion. Now on topic The fact that if a soldier would not be charged with using a silencer in a emergency situation is not what I was talking about, I have seen soldiers use silencers simply practicing off base in a civilian gun rangeand it is THAT which would be in violation of subsection C if indeed subsection C means using silencers is illegal. If it is illegal for some than it is illegal for all no exceptions means no exceptions. now if it is legal to use real silencers than nobody has broken any laws and we can all live happily ever after.
Yep, you still are as arrogant and full of yourself as always. Seeing and being a soldier are not the same, but of course you will never know that and you have no clue about being a serving soldier. Until then shut up about which you know nothing. The civil authorities can't touch you for what you doand while on active dutyunless the military saysthey can. That's really the only way a armed force member can be held accountable for anything they do even off duty.
 

Agent 47

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heresolong wrote:
I think that what you will find is that military personnel are indeed exempt from state law while performing their duties. If, for example, the military police were to repel an attack at Bremerton sub base just outside the entrance, the state could theoretically charge the members of the military with a variety of state crimes. In reality those charges would be thrown out before they had time to finish filing them. I can't explain why the brandishing law includes an exemption for soldiers (unless it is intended for the national guard units) but if the SEALs needed to send soldiers armed with silenced MP5s and waved them around during an operation I can guarantee you that they would not be charged with anything if it was a legitimate government operation.

As far as being governed by federal law, the military is governed by the UCMJ and subject only to those laws. If ordered by the Commander in Chief, they have the authority to carry out whatever those orders are within the confines of the UCMJ and are not subject to federal laws that say, for example, you can't possess a fully automatic weapon without a special license.

This I think is what Bear was trying to say.
You are quite right, That is the wonderful thing about judges with common sense. If anyone breaks a small law while in the process of doing something like defending the lives of others or some other greater good than it would be asinine to think they would be charged withthe minor crime. If I were to rush across the street to push a blind person out of the way ofa speeding car would I be charged with jaywalking? Probably not, but did I jaywalk? Yes I most certainly did. As for the federal law regarding the possession of machine guns they fall into the exceptions set forth by that law because the gun does not belong to the soldier, it belongs to the military. It is the same law that lets me go into a civilian range in Arizona plop down fifty bucks and walk out on the range unsupervised with a machine gun a rattle off thirty rounds. I have neverreceiveda machine gun licence or even undergone a background check but I can legally be in possession of it, Federal law only regulates the ownership of machine guns to those who have been licenced to own them possession does not require a licence, for a civilian or a soldier it is the same thing. In this state the law that prohibits the individual ownership of machine guns doesn't effect the military because individual soldiers do not own the guns they use. However the law under discussion is not about ownership, Contrary to what Bear said in this state anyone with a reasonably clean record can own a silencer anyone can have a silencer in their possession, anyone can thread a silencer onto a loaded gun and point it downrange. But if the law is interpreted as it has been as soon as a bullet flies through it EVERYONE, Capitan Smith of Seattle SWAT pvt. Johnson USMC and Billy Joe Jenkens, Hick from Union Washington, Have committed a gross misdemeanor. Subsection C regulates theActions of individuals within the states boundaries. I don't like the idea that Police, military and private citizens alike are all breaking the law so that is why it makes sense that subsection C has been misinterpreted.
 

Agent 47

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Until then shut up about which you know nothing.


Good advise Bear why don't you try it for once.

This discussion is not about the military, It is about silencers and the state laws that govern them and their use by individuals, I happen to have a great deal of experience on this particular topic, You on the other hand have none. So exactly who is it that should,,,,, how did you say? "Shut up about which you know nothing".
 

Bear 45/70

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Agent 47 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Until then shut up about which you know nothing.


Good advise Bear why don't you try it for once.

This discussion is not about the military, It is about silencers and the state laws that govern them and their use by individuals, I happen to have a great deal of experience on this particular topic, You on the other hand have none. So exactly who is it that should,,,,, how did you say? "Shut up about which you know nothing".
You're the one that thinks he has all the answers without ever having done anything importantwith their life except run his mouth.
 

Agent 47

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
You're the one that thinks he has all the answers without ever having done anything importantwith their life except run his mouth.


You see the difference between us Bear is Iam doing things with my life.You sit around trying to convince yourself and everyone else that you were important oncebecause you can't face how useless your life has been.
 

Bear 45/70

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Agent 47 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
You're the one that thinks he has all the answers without ever having done anything importantwith their life except run his mouth.


You see the difference between us Bear is Iam doing things with my life.You sit around trying to convince yourself and everyone else that you were important oncebecause you can't face how useless your life has been.
Arrogant and stupid to boot. If you live long enough you might smarten up, but I doubt it. Your ego won't allow it.
 

sv_libertarian

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If military personal are using military owned silencers in the performance of their duties, be it sending someone back to Allah who tried to blow up a sub, or merely training at Sam's there is no law in this state, regardless of wording that can touch them.

I suspect the law is poorly worded in regards to when LEO's can use them, but until I can use one in this state (which since I can't use the stupid thing it is nearly as good as not being allowed to own one) I'm not going to get worked up over it. If I really and truly wanted to use a silencer, you can bet I would buy one legally and then bring suit against the state. I don't so I won't. If/when I get to Alaska I may change my tune.
 

Nitrox314

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Seems kinda rediculous to be able to own a silencer but not use it. Its not like criminals would own but never use. Besides, seems like LEOs are so concerned about the distress of the whiny citizens seeing our guns alone. Maybe having a silencer would help alleviate their fears so they at least wont hear them :D.

Of course the silencer and pistol would never fit in my holster anyways. But maybe for home use? I always worry that I will be too groggy being woken up in the middle of the night and give away my location with a missed shot. I am a pretty good shot, but I have never been in that position, so I am not sure how well I would do. Its not real easy to train yourself for that, unless you sleep at arange and shoot at targets whilst you wake.
 

Nitrox314

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
The civil authorities can't touch you for what you doand while on active dutyunless the military saysthey can. That's really the only way a armed force member can be held accountable for anything they do even off duty.

Sorry Bear, but thats not quite accurate. That is only true if the offense takes place on a military facility. Local Law Enforcement as well as State have jurisdiction if the offence occurs outside the military facility. I know this as as well as I can and is in my eyes asfact (Personal Observations in the end). I have done my time in the service, and I still serve in the reserves. I work on a base as a civ contractor. I have credentials for this knowledge. Now, that being said, NCIS here also works off the facilities in cooperation with the local law enforcement to bust military people for illegal activities against the UCMJ when offences occur outside the facility. Usually this takes place when a military member or family is in danger. But if a military person was to walk into a bar and shoot ten civilians, he could be held by the local law enforcement and courts. The person could be charged in state courts and in Military because they have different laws that were broken, so I do not think itwouldfall under double jepordy.

Hell, I might be wrong about all this, but this is all from what I have seen in my time.
 
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