The last straw... :-(

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I agree that holding your barrel was a mistake and it caused the problem. I also agree that getting in your face about something the other guy did was rude and uncalled for.

That being said, there is never a good excuse for not noticing someone walking toward your field of fire. It doesn't matter how short the guy is, or how crowded the store is. I've never pointed a gun at someone while I was shopping, and I've been in some busy stores. The fact of the matter is that if you are handling a gun, you need to be aware of your surroundings. You need to be aware if someone is heading toward your field of fire, and you need to react to it. It's pretty hard to react when someone's holding your barrel, though. So I agree with that part, but I don't agree with making excuses of why you didn't see him coming.

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I am human, I mean, I'm sorry to tell you. I don't really see how these are "excuses." I'm glad to hear that you're perfect, and that you haven't been in such a situation, but honestly you are also prone to making a mistake. In this case, the mistake was to have not made sure that the 3 things that I listed in my last post on page 1 occurred. I have never had this happen before, and I don't just point shit around "willy nilly."

Also, as I've already said, his activities prior to "popping out" from behind the guy could have been anything.

He may have walked down the length of the counter, and then stopped 7 feet to my right, done something, squatted down to get ammo, etc, and then popped up while simultaneously moving into my line of sight. I didn't ever see this guy just walk up clearly. Once again, it just wasn't like that.

There were already people 4 feet away on either side of me, lol. This was a 16,000 square foot store, with 3 counters, and the one I was in front of was about 40 feet long. It had people all down it from one end to the other, on either side. I also never got a chance to react, so this whole "you weren't aware" thing doesn' even apply, as I said, I was in fact aware that he was coming out from behind the salesman. If I could have just reacted he would never have been in front of the barrel, but I was prevented from acting by another employee, who in fact pulled the barrel directly into the guy's path.

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Man, I wish I had a dollar for every time a customer pointed a gun directly at my head (negligently/incidentally, not intentionally). Sure, I check the guns each and every time they are handled, but Christ... that is never ok unless you intend to do someone in (and I'm the only one allowed to do that here). I just admonish them that this is never ok andthat "it's not loaded" is not an adequate response.

That doesn't look to be the case here, and this guy sounds a bit uptight.

-ljp

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Yeah, as someone pointed out (Perhaps you?), and I'd imagine this had to be true, the guy probably did have guns pointed at him multiple times that day already. He was obviously in a hurry, as he was making two sales simultaneously. He was probably stressed out, and all I bet he saw was the guy grab the barrel. He probably assumed from that, that I had JUST lifted it up, when in fact it had been aiming in the same direction for 10-20 seconds already. Not to mention I had been aiming at the same spot there with every firearm I handled, and was standing in the same location doing this for 5-10 minutes. He had been next to me earlier, as I was handling the firearms, and then he left to go get all the forms for the customers. He knew I was there, but I bet he was focused on making the sale. It was an unfortunate situation.

I have learned from this, and as any responsible individual would, I keep questioning what I could have done to prevent it.


I've been standing in front of a counter and had a guy slam a tactical .308 rifle with a bipod down onto the relatively high counter. Due to the angle at which the rifle was resting (The bipod was extended), the barrel was pointed DIRECTLY at my head. That is the type of thing I think of as negligent, and I understand how much it can scare you and how upset it can make you when you think that someone has done something that stupid. But if he had been aiming it, especially since it had a scope on it narrowing things down a good bit more, and I just walked in front of him, that's not his fault IMO.

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Whatever, dude. You did perfectly, and Jesus himself couldn't have avoided pointing that gun at someone. In fact I'm just being a bumbling jackass for suggesting that the guy holding the gun should be paying attention to the people around him.

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If I recall correctly you were the one saying you've never ever had a gun in your control that has even remotely pointed at someone. I don't think I'm the one walking around claiming to be perfect, and I certainly haven't claimed that I could somehow outperform (Or even perform on the same level as) a non-physical entity.

I could have said the same thing you are before this happened, and all I pointed out is that you may find yourself in the same position.

Since you are acknowledging that he grabbed the gun, but at the same time you're saying that I was somehow still being irresponsible, I asked you to clarify what you thought I should have done. That is not claiming to be perfect in any way. Have you been "hearing" yourself talk in here? What you're saying is that you are literally able to see in all directions at once, and that it's somehow physically impossible for someone to pop out from behind a salesperson while that salesperson simultaneously grabs your gun and directs it towards the guy who has just popped out behind him. Sorry, but I can't make that claim. I even said in my original post what I should have done to avoid pointing it at him. Did you not read that part either?

Let me remind you, again, of what you said:

That being said, there is never a good excuse for not noticing someone walking toward your field of fire. It doesn't matter how short the guy is, or how crowded the store is. I've never pointed a gun at someone while I was shopping, and I've been in some busy stores. The fact of the matter is that if you are handling a gun, you need to be aware of your surroundings. You need to be aware if someone is heading toward your field of fire, and you need to react to it. It's pretty hard to react when someone's holding your barrel, though. So I agree with that part, but I don't agree with making excuses of why you didn't see him coming.

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Once again, it was NOT that simple. There wasn't just a single person walking towards my "field of fire." But, lets continue to go in circles, here's what I said:

Also, as I've already said, his activities prior to "popping out" from behind the guy could have been anything.

He may have walked down the length of the counter, and then stopped 7 feet to my right, done something, squatted down to get ammo, etc, and then popped up while simultaneously moving into my line of sight. I didn't ever see this guy just walk up clearly. Once again, it just wasn't like that.

There were already people 4 feet away on either side of me, lol. This was a 16,000 square foot store, with 3 counters, and the one I was in front of was about 40 feet long. It had people all down it from one end to the other, on either side. I also never got a chance to react, so this whole "you weren't aware" thing doesn' even apply, as I said, I was in fact aware that he was coming out from behind the salesman. If I could have just reacted he would never have been in front of the barrel, but I was prevented from acting by another employee, who in fact pulled the barrel directly into the guy's path.

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This was an unfortunate situation and based solely on your explaination, it appears that the clerk was way out of line.

One thing to remember though.......IF there had been an accidental discharge, YOU would have been the one with the shotgun and YOU would have been held accountable by the authorities and possibly in a civil action.(I know the gun was checked and "unloaded")

As the other poster pointed out, while this appears, based on your explaination, to have been an unavoidable situation, you would have ultimately been the one responsible. My suggestion would be that if a store is so crowded that you cannot safely examine the weapon, you come back at a less crowded time or ASk if there is somewhere in the store that you can safely shoulder and examine the weapon. This would be for your own benefit since if an AD did occur, the employees of the gunshop would likely all point the finger at you!!!! I doubt seriously that in the event of an accident any of the employees would accept responsibility.

Think for a minute on this possible scenario: You are shouldering your shotgun in your own home. Suddenly and with no warning, your wife walks into the room just as your weapon ADs and she is killed or injured. How hard would it be to get the first LEO on the scene, or a judge and jury, to believe that it was purely an accident? I would bet that a minimum you would be faced with negligent homicide charges, even though as described it would have been an accident. I realize this is a different situation, but the pointing of the firearm toward someone else is somewhat similar.

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I couldn't notice "my wife walking in the door," and I'd certainly shoot her if she did.

I've never considered that, WOW, I'm so enlightened now.



Lock the doors and keep your wives and children home folks, the Mossberg arrives tomorrow, and lord knows I can't help but point it at wives and children.

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You know... from what i read it sounds to me like he was 'projecting'.

He violated a basice firearms safety rule (and possibly company policy) by walking directly into the 'line of fire', and to make matters worse he not only did it in front of his co-workers (no deniability), he also forced one of his said co-workers to take action to protect him from the muzzle.

It sounds like he knew he futzed up, but it took a couple of seconds to sink in before he 'made a scene' by accusing YOU of being negligent in an attempt to deflect focus from his own 'dumbass' actions.

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So what you guys are saying is if some dumb-f*ck suddenly jumped past the firing line at a range and was accidentally gunned down it would be the fault of the people shooting the guns? Wow, that's a stretch.

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USAF_MetalChris wrote:

So what you guys are saying is if some dumb-f*ck suddenly jumped past the firing line at a range and was accidentally gunned down it would be the fault of the people shooting the guns? Wow, that's a stretch.

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This kind of reminds me of a car accident. If the guy in front of you slams on his breaks and you rear-end him, it's still partially your fault since you should have been back far enough to avoid hitting him IF he randomly slammed on his breaks.

If you're at a range, actively firing your weapon, you should be able to see someone in your line of fire and not pull the trigger. I've heard bullets move pretty fast, so it's not like someone could jump in front of the bullet after it's been fired.

This incident happened in a store, however, with people all over the place. This wasn't a place that you would normally raise a weapon, because of all the people. Since you really should look over a gun before you buy it, however, you have to make an exception in a gun store. Thats why you check to make sure the weapon is unloaded like 5 or 6 times before you raise the thing. Heck, I aim and dry-fire a weapon in the store before I consider purchasing it.

Weak 9mm did everything he could do, and the bottom line is that gun didn't have any rounds in it. The salesman checked, andWeak 9mmchecked. It was a big metal stick. Don't get on the guy for "letting" someone else get into his field of fire...er, I mean field field of sticking.

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Weak 9mm wrote:

I couldn't notice "my wife walking in the door," and I'd certainly shoot her if she did.

I've never considered that, WOW, I'm so enlightened now.



Lock the doors and keep your wives and children home folks, the Mossberg arrives tomorrow, and lord knows I can't help but point it at wives and children.

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I didn't make the post to upset you, and elicit sarcasm. I was only tryingto present a scenario and have an open discussion. Obviously that did not work. Have a good evening sir.

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There is no doubt the clerk was out of line. There is no excuse for the rudeness he showed you. Also working in a gun store he should be more aware of where guns are pointing than an average customer would be. On the other hand once you pick up a gun and point it you are responsible for your field of view. Knowing the place was crowded you took no action to warn others you were pointing the gun and you pointed it in a direction someone was able to cross in front of. Even though the wayward clerk made a dumb a$$ move the responsibility still falls to you. When you pick up a gun and point it the responsibility for the field of view falls on your shoulders. If it was unsafe to be pointing the gun at that time then you should not have been pointing it.

I would have responded to the clerks remarks with something like "sorry man I don't like having guns pointed at me either. I didn't see you coming behind the other clerk and then he grabbed the barrel." After that it would depend on his response.

I like the idea of a designated pointing area and target in a gun store. I intend to suggest that where I buy my guns. I think it is also the gun store's responsibility to provide a safe environment for the handling and pointing of guns they intend to sell. If they don't do that they have no right to become indignant when they end up stepping in front ofa customer inspecting andpointing of a firearm.

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Who doesn't raise and dry fire a weapon at a store? I would never buy a gun without make sure it felt right in my hands and the trigger pull is what I needed or wanted. The guy behind the counter was out of line, shouldn't have walked infront of you, and definitely shouldn't have made a comment like that if he values his job. Sure accidentally pointing an unloaded firearm at someone isn't cool, but this guy is in the customer service industry and I think you should let his boss know that the 800$ firearm you won't buy at their store due to his dickish comments.

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G27 wrote:

Who doesn't raise and dry fire a weapon at a store? I would never buy a gun without make sure it felt right in my hands and the trigger pull is what I needed or wanted. The guy behind the counter was out of line, shouldn't have walked infront of you, and definitely shouldn't have made a comment like that if he values his job. Sure accidentally pointing an unloaded firearm at someone isn't cool, but this guy is in the customer service industry and I think you should let his boss know that the 800$ firearm you won't buy at their store due to his dickish comments.

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Agreed on all points. I would like to stress, however, that I would not have been pointing a gun if it was so crowded that it could not be done safely. Now I don't want to be a monday morning quarterback, because I see where the clerk was the one making the mistake in grabbing the barrel. I am just saying that there are no exceptions to the 4 rules. You never, ever break the 4 rules. If you are in a situation that makes it difficult to not break those rules, stop handing the gun. Come back when they aren't as busy. There is never an excuse for pointing a gun at someone. However, if there were an excuse, this would be a perfect example of it.

IMO Weak 9mm made no mistakes in the way that he handled the gun. He was forced into a difficult situation, and was blamed for someone elses mistake. The only thing that I am saying was a mistake was to handle the gun while he wasn't capable of monitoring everyone around him. Now this is a very easy mistake for anyone to make, and normally it wouldn't be a problem. I personally think that the salesperson was way out of line in speaking to Weak 9mm with that tone. It was unprofessional and uncalled for. I also think that the other salesman was WAY out of line in grabbing the barrel. I've been in gun stores when the guys behind the counter are too focussed on a purchase and are moving quickly behind the counter, disregarding where guns are pointed. In those situations, I pay attention to where people are, and if I see someone entering my field of fire, I unshoulder the weapon and point the barrel vertically, so that it is aimed at the ceiling. Now I bet that would be a bit difficult for him to do with the jackass behind the counter grabbing his barrel.

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I must agree with expvideo on this, the mistake was to have even looked at the gun in that location of the store during those hours. Even though multiple other people were doing the exact same thing near me, I think I really should have made the guy walk down to a more secure location. I did mistakenly assume that the employees would be watching out for this type of activity, but that will not be happening again.


Also, I'm not sure if it's clear to some of the folks, but the "trigger check" happened way before this incident, so at the time there was no risk as far as I'm concerned of an accidental discharge.

The analogy given about the person on the range was good, but I would change it slightly:

It is like someone walking onto the range and then yelling at everyone for even having the weapons pointed downrange ("At" the person on the range), as if everyone should have been pointing uprange all along, and should have telepathically known that this guy was going to go right out there. I would not have shot this man, even with a fully loaded weapon, because I did in fact follow safety procedures, obviously just not enough for the situation. The safety was on, and my finger was pointed straight forward, resting on the frame of the firearm, well clear of the trigger guard and trigger.

That is why you don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire. I do understand the basic rules of handling, I don't think that you should ever point a gun at someone, period. I, once again, mistakenly thought that pointing it in an area in which only employees should be in would be ok, but I now realize that I will need to take many more steps to avoid such an incident.

I guess it's that I didn't have enough experience in a store of this size when it was actually busy. One thing I will say, is that the guy that grabbed the gun should think long and hard about it. He endangered his fellow employee, and had I been a true idiot, with my finger on the trigger, the safety off, and a round chambered; imagine what may have happened when he grabbed the barrel and pulled....:what:




Also, my sarcasm in another thread has apparently given the anti's a great deal of "ammo" to use against us. I may need to remove myself from this site in order to prevent furthur ammunition being given to such individuals.

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That's exactly why the 4 rules are in place. If one of them is inadvertantly broken, the other 3 should keep you safe (such as, in your case, keeping your finger off of the trigger). This was a really crappy situation that the salesman put you in, and I'd agree that it would be a good idea not to shop there anymore. Not only because the one employee was rude, but mostly because that jackass grabbed your barrel. That's a big no-no in my book. I'd be cautious of that store, as the employees obviously don't havea healthy respect for firearms safety.

So all in all, I don't think that it was Weak 9mm that made the big mistake. His only mistake was to handle a gun in a busy store, which under most circumstances should have been fine, except that somebody thought it was ok to grab the barrel and point it at another person. What an idiot!

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expvideo wrote:

...I'd agree that it would be a good idea not to shop there anymore.

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I also agree, but you need to let the store's management know they have a jackass working for them.

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USAF_MetalChris wrote:

expvideo wrote:

...I'd agree that it would be a good idea not to shop there anymore.

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I also agree, but you need to let the store's management know they have a jackass working for them.

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2 by my count. Thebarrel grabbingjackass, and the treating customers like dirt jackass.

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^^ Ah right, the rude jackass was the only one I was thinking about, but clearly the other dude also qualifies.

So be sure to inform management that they have 2 jackasses working for them.