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Thread: New member to OC

  1. #1
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    Hi guys,

    I am a new member to OC and heard about it from the article in the Standard Examiner. That article sparked my interest in displaying our rights to OC. I think that it is great what you guys are doing and I plan to start OCing and hope that I can assist in educating the public about it.

    I do not yet have my CC permit but am in the process of getting it.

    Are there any cautions or considerations that I need to keep in mind until I get my CC? (asside from having to be 2 steps away from firing)

    Thanks and I look forward to reading and posting with you guys.

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    School zones and car carry.

    You have to stay 1000+ft from a school

    Your gun has to be clearly visible while driving, or in a secure container not readily accessible (glove box or center console do not count)



  3. #3
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    Hey welcome.

    The only thing that I would suggest to you is make sure that you have a holster that has some sort of retaining device.

    And don't be afraid of oc'ing.

  4. #4
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!!! I agree with rocknsnow. Nothing bugs me more that seeing a $500 pistol in a cheap $15 holster. When I bought my G23 the guy threw in one of those Uncle Mikes kydex holsters with it. Needless to say I did not keep that holster long.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Welcome to the forum! I agree with what has been said, look around, do some research and get yourself a good holster. There are major brands out there: Blackhawk, Safariland, Bianchi, etc. that make great holsters. Even though every one of us have multiple holsters, there is always one that we like more than the others.

    If you are interested in concealed carry, most of us (along with a lot of other people) are also members of Utah Concealed Carry (http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com).

    Glad to have you here and glad that the newspapers are bringing new members.

  6. #6
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    Welcome!
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

  7. #7
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    Welcome. I think the other posters have covered the only major concerns very well.

    1-Keep the firearm 2 actions away from firing (safety does NOT count as one of those actions). For a semi-auto, keeping the chamber clear is adequate.

    2-Stay 1000' or more away from school, colleges, day cares, etc. This includes while driving down a freeway. This law is rarely enforced and VERY difficult to fully comply with. But avoid the obvious violations.

    3-Keep the firearm in plain sight when in a car, and in your holster may not do that. Additionally, prior to having a permit, I found that a soft sided, zippered gun case provided a convenient way to secure the gun and keep it out sight when I needed or wanted to. Even today, with a permit, such a case is great for when I need to leave a gun in the car for some reason.

    4-Rentention holster and proper situational awareness.

    5-Proper demeanor and attitude. OC makes a statement. Be sure part of that statement is that gun owners and carriers are law-abiding, respectable, polite kind of people.

    6-A confidence of the law. No where will you find a statute saying you can open carry; just a lack of laws to the contrary. Spend some time reading 76-10-5xx to make sure you KNOW the law and can cite it confidenty, calmly, and politely. I have actually printed up a small paper that folds and fits in my wallet with the most relevant sections of code on it. I recommend the experience of doing likewise.

    In several years of OCing and casually concealing I've had only a couple of encounters with the police (and only one of those negative and that was in southern arizona), and several questions from non-police. So there is no reason to be worried about OCing. Just be prepared.

    Finally, remember that while it is perfectly legal for us to OC, it is also still perfectly legal for a private business to deny you entry or service if they desire. A government entity is a completely different story, of course.

    All the best and welcome.

    PS, I am not a lawyer, none of this legal advice, and other standard disclaimers.

    Charles Hardy

    Public Police Director
    GOUtah! (Gun Owners of Utah)
    http://www.goutahorg.org

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Thanks guys.

    I have a glock 19 and several holsters for OC and CC on of which has a locking mechanism like you guys are talking about. the gun cannot fall out and must be released by the push of a button on the side. I don't recall the brand but I do like it alot.

    I will do some more reading on this site and studying of the laws so that I am prepared for the time when I am questioned by people about the laws and why I OC.

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    1-Keep the firearm 2 actions away from firing (safety does NOT count as one of those actions). For a semi-auto, keeping the chamber clear is adequate.
    Utah law does not define if a safety is or is not mechanism. It only states that more than one manual action is required. Also, for a semi-auto, keeping the chamber clear is not only adequate, it is mandatory.

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.

    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.

    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

    Amended by Chapter 328, 1990 General Session


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Utah law does not define if a safety is or is not mechanism. It only states that more than one manual action is required. Also, for a semi-auto, keeping the chamber clear is not only adequate, it is mandatory.
    Ask 10 prosecutors and at least 9 will tell you that they do not consider disengaging the safety to be one of the two actions needed to keep a gun from being loaded.

    Of course, it is mostly a moot point as the requirment not to have a round in firing position creates two actions to fire any semi-auto (rack the slide, pull the trigger) and most revolvers don't have manual safeties anyway.

    Most accurately put, keeping the chamber empty on a semi-auto is both necessary and sufficient for the firearm to be considered legally unloaded under Utah law. On a revolver, it is necessary, but may or may not be sufficient depending on the type of relolver.

    For revolvers, whether the firearm is a single or double action would influence how many chambers other than the one under the hammer would need to be left empty for the firearm to be considered unloaded. A single action could have all chambers EXCEPT the one under the hammer loaded as you would need to cock the hammer and pull the trigger to discharge a round. A double action needs to have both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber empty lest simply pulling the trigger result in a round being discharged.

    I hasten to point out that if a firearm becomes concealed, however, and the person does not have a permit, there is a higher penalty if the firearm "contains [any] ammunition" than if it doesn't. That code does NOT use the definition of "loaded" that is used elsewhere.

    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
    (a) ...
    (b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  11. #11
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    1-Keep the firearm 2 actions away from firing (safety does NOT count as one of those actions). For a semi-auto, keeping the chamber clear is adequate.
    A Safety may count, I have never seen ANYWHERE (even case law) where a safety has been declared as not a vaild 'action'. But since you MUST have an empty chamber and no round in firing position it doesn't really matter for either a semi or a revolver.
    2-Stay 1000' or more away from school, colleges, day cares, etc. This includes while driving down a freeway. This law is rarely enforced and VERY difficult to fully comply with. But avoid the obvious violations.
    While traveling you are good to be within 1000' of a school according to the fed law. Even utah law says you are ok while driving:

    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).

    3-Keep the firearm in plain sight when in a car, and in your holster may not do that. Additionally, prior to having a permit, I found that a soft sided, zippered gun case provided a convenient way to secure the gun and keep it out sight when I needed or wanted to. Even today, with a permit, such a case is great for when I need to leave a gun in the car for some reason.
    Plain sight is a must if not "securely encased"
    4-Rentention holster and proper situational awareness.
    +1
    5-Proper demeanor and attitude. OC makes a statement. Be sure part of that statement is that gun owners and carriers are law-abiding, respectable, polite kind of people.
    +1 All it takes is a few idiots and more laws start being made
    6-A confidence of the law. No where will you find a statute saying you can open carry; just a lack of laws to the contrary. Spend some time reading 76-10-5xx to make sure you KNOW the law and can cite it confidenty, calmly, and politely. I have actually printed up a small paper that folds and fits in my wallet with the most relevant sections of code on it. I recommend the experience of doing likewise.
    Know the law. Cards are optional and while I have one, I have never used it.
    In several years of OCing and casually concealing I've had only a couple of encounters with the police (and only one of those negative and that was in southern arizona), and several questions from non-police. So there is no reason to be worried about OCing. Just be prepared.
    Most people don't have to worry about police here in utah, usually problems (if any) arise from store employees who don't know the law.
    Finally, remember that while it is perfectly legal for us to OC, it is also still perfectly legal for a private business to deny you entry or service if they desire. A government entity is a completely different story, of course.
    When asked to leave, Just leave. You can argue after the fact if needed.


  12. #12
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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    When asked to leave, Just leave. You can argue after the fact if needed.
    The same applies if you're asked to do something by a police officer. It may be a good idea to briefly point out that the law is on your side, but if the officer doesn't want to hear it, just comply with his/her requests. Get the officer's name and badge number so that you can file a complaint later.

  13. #13
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    swillden wrote:
    xmirage2kx wrote:
    When asked to leave, Just leave. You can argue after the fact if needed.
    The same applies if you're asked to do something by a police officer. It may be a good idea to briefly point out that the law is on your side, but if the officer doesn't want to hear it, just comply with his/her requests. Get the officer's name and badge number so that you can file a complaint later.
    OR you can always just get Tazed if you perfer going that way :shock:

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