Confronted at New J-ville Wal-Mart SuperCenter

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Well I had to go to Wal-Mart today to get more cans of Krylon Desert Tan for my KLR. After being in the store for a good 20 mins we are back towards the kids isle getting something for my son and a gal of milk over at the dairy section.

I see a chuby guy and a tall guy in Wal-Mart garb tailing me and pointing at me with his radio antenna talking to the talk guy. I ignore them and continue shopping. Keep in mind I've probably got about 50+ bucks worth of stuff in my cart right now.

As I pull out a Gal of milk and put it in the cart he walks up and says:

"Excuse me sir, I'll have to ask you to leave if you are going to wear that firearm in here."

"Where are the signs on the front door saying I can't carry?"

"It's store policy sir that you can't carry."

"Can you show this to me in some book that ya'll may have?"

"Sir if you would like I can go get my "co-manager" and you can discuss this with him."

We discuss the usual anti vs. pro speak. He insists that I am some sort of safety/liability hazard and that anyone could come up and take my gun at a moments notice. I try to explain to him that no crazed killer is going to listen to some rule in a book somewhere or a sign on a door if they feel like killing people................yada, yada, yada, you know how this conversation usually goes. The whole timeother guy I'll call "the lackey" is just standing next to the short fat asst. manager staring me down the whole time.

"Co-Manager? Sure go get him, I'll leave if ya'll ask me to but Wal-Mart corporate WILL be getting a phone call and e-mails from me and I'm sure others on this subject, by the way you never answered me about the signs on the front door."

"I'll have to take care of that sir if I have too."

"So how come I've been in here about 5 other times Open carrying and not one employee or anyone else said anything to me. Not to mention the other Wal-Mart that I've shopped at for the past 4 years has never peeped a word to me about my handgun."

"They should sir it's store policy, I'm not allowed to carry a firearm."

"Hmm.... that could be because it's store policy that EMPLOYEES don't get to carry I'm willing to bet that, that rule says nothing about the CUSTOMERS."

"Sir once again I'll have to ask you to leave." At this point he goes off on a rant about how HE thinks that only police should carry out in public and blah blah blah needless to say I was getting tired of hearing him blab. So I said.....

"Fair enough Have fun with that buggy."

I grabbed my kid out of the buggy and walked out the door.

Then drove to the other supercenter on the other side of town and had a pleseant shopping experience with no one bothering me Iwonder just how much of a threat I looked like with abouncing 2.5 year old in the cart I was pushing LOL.



I'll be sending an e-mail to their corporate headquaters soon and even if signs do show up out there I'll just conceal carry in there. Not to mention take pictures of them and send those into corporate.


Edit-by the way the "Co-Manager" what ever the hell that is never showed up on the scene and here is the website if you feel like contacting their corporat headquaters along with me

http://www.walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStoresWeb/navigate.do?catg=224

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E-mail sent

To whom it may concern,

I was shopping at your newest Wal-Mart in Jacksonville, NC today. As usual I was LEGALLY carrying my firearm in accordance with North Carolina State Law.



About 20 minutes into my shopping with my son who is 2 1/2 years old I get confronted by your daytime assistant manager and some other employee about my firearm and how it is against corporate policy to carry a firearm into the store.



I politely disagree and point out that there were no signs on the entrance of the store. At this point he gets short with me and tries to talk down to me.



Towards the end of the conversation with him he decides it's a good idea to insert his opinion that he thinks only cops should be allowed to carry a firearm in public. I don't shop at Wal-Mart to hear what the employees have to say about me exercising my rights as a US citizen. I shop there because you have everything I usually need under one roof.



Now I have carried my firearm into this same Wal-Mart approximately, 5 times previous to this incident and never heard a word from ANYONE about it. Also you have another Wal-Mart on the other side of town that I have shopped at for four years and have NEVER heard anything from them about my firearm. How is it okay at that one store but not okay at the new one? Is it because your day time assistant manager has a political agenda he wishes to push on the LAW ABIDING customers in the store? I'm not sure, I know I felt like I was being treated like a criminal for doing absolutely nothing wrong at all.



I hope to hear from you on this subject and what exactly the policy is on firearms in your stores instead of what you assistant manager THINKS should be allowed or not allowed in this country.



Thank you for your time,

Cpl. xxxxx xxxxxx, x.

USMC Active

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We'll see what they say if they don't contact me in a day or so I'll be putting in a phone call.

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When it comes to WalMart, I think a gentle touch is in order.

All it takes is for some corporate attorney to decide that its not worth the liability to let customers carry, and up go the signs.

All it takes is for a regional manager to get tired of complaints from gun guys and he starts lobbying for NGZ signs.

Gentle touch, please. Very polite, rather friendly.

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Even if they put up "no gun"signs at the Wal-Mart here it wont' stop me from CCing. By NC state law just becuase they put up a sign dosen't make it illgeal to carry there. All they can do is ask me to leave. And if I'm CCing they'll never know about it.

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Citizen wrote:

When it comes to WalMart, I think a gentle touch is in order.

All it takes is for some corporate attorney to decide that its not worth the liability to let customers carry, and up go the signs.

All it takes is for a regional manager to get tired of complaints from gun guys and he starts lobbying for NGZ signs.

Gentle touch, please. Very polite, rather friendly.

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I think that if that were to happen, the next HUGE push should be for no gun zone liability laws.

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Wow man, that sucks. I've been through that Wal-Mart every other weekend with my sidearm. Heck, a week or two ago I was in there buying shotgun shells with my pistol on my side. I'll have to wander through there next time I'm down there.

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jeepinbanditrider wrote:

Even if they put up "no gun"signs at the Wal-Mart here it wont' stop me from CCing. By NC state law just becuase they put up a sign dosen't make it illgeal to carry there. All they can do is ask me to leave. And if I'm CCing they'll never know about it.

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I understand.

Please consider the rest of us who shop in WalMarts all over the country.

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DreQo wrote:

Wow man, that sucks. I've been through that Wal-Mart every other weekend with my sidearm. Heck, a week or two ago I was in there buying shotgun shells with my pistol on my side. I'll have to wander through there next time I'm down there.

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Just remember it's the "new" supercenter that JUST opened. Not the old one over on western blvd. I've had nothing but pleasent experiences OCing there.

Citizen I understand and hope they don't change corporate policy over this one incident. They will never think there is a problem unless enough law abiding firearm carrying citizens raise a stink over it. They will continue to think that OCers and CCers alike are just "anomolies" and will cater to the "other side".

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OH! I forgot about the new one. I'll make sure to visit it!! They're going to open up one here in Havelock too, soon. I really really hope there's no drama there. I'll probably be there opening day to test the waters.

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“…only police should carry…” Guns are bad and evil in a Marine Corps town?! I’m sure there are a lot of folks in that town that wear camouflage to work everyday who would disagree with him. Those are the same folks that probably make up the majority of customers at “his” store that ultimately pay his salary. Ah, one’s personal perception is one’s personal reality I suppose.

I was down there last year for training, but CC'd the majority of the time. It was before I found OCDO.

Some inanimate objects just seem to scare some folks. Not me, I’m only scared of reanimated objects…like zombies.

Look on the bright side, up here in the PRM, we can't OC or CC in a Wal-Mart...or anywhere else in the State for that matter :banghead:

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DKSuddeth wrote:

Citizen wrote:

When it comes to WalMart, I think a gentle touch is in order.

All it takes is for some corporate attorney to decide that its not worth the liability to let customers carry, and up go the signs.

All it takes is for a regional manager to get tired of complaints from gun guys and he starts lobbying for NGZ signs.

Gentle touch, please. Very polite, rather friendly.

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I think that if that were to happen, the next HUGE push should be for no gun zone liability laws.

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I think gun-free zone liability statutes are a great idea. As a matter of fact, I had begun doing research on states trying to push these laws over the last couple of weeks because I am planning to draft similar law for VA and ask my legislators to sponsor it in the '09 general assembly session.

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jeepinbanditrider wrote:

........."Sir once again I'll have to ask you to leave." At this point he goes off on a rant about how HE thinks that only police should carry out in public..........

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At this point it becomes very clear that he is afraid of guns and you make him nervous and he wants you to leave. It has nothing to do with company policy, but only HIS policy.

The key here is that Wal-Mart is a place, love it or hate it, that all of us end up from time to time.

They have good prices and so we shop there.

To keep prices low they hire who they can and this is a broad range from the intellectual to the imbecile.

It is the disposition of most men when they receive a little authority, to exorcise it in a bullish manner.

When we challenge these bullies, they bow their necks and we have the potential to cause more bad things to happen than good ones.

Soft, kind words do turn away wrath and some times discretion is the better part of valor.

If you get in a fight with a buzz saw, you may be right, but at what cost.



Just some thoughts.



Tarzan

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tarzan1888 wrote:

If you get in a fight with a buzz saw, you may be right, but at what cost.

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Can we get a cartoon of this? Thanks.

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"Might makes right" is a popular argument against vehicular cyclists, "You may be right, but dead right." It is not a principled argument.

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DreQo wrote:

tarzan1888 wrote:

If you get in a fight with a buzz saw, you may be right, but at what cost.

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Can we get a cartoon of this? Thanks.

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If I could draw I would make you one, :what:but I think you get the idea.





Doug Huffman wrote:

"Might makes right" is a popular argument against vehicular cyclists, "You may be right, but dead right." It is not a principled argument.

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This is true and I love principles, BUT with the law of diminishing returns, some times what you lose is so much more valuable than what you get that I question the logic of the effort.

I like to pick my battles, and at the same time realize that I can't fight every one of them.



Tarzan

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I also am an NC CCP holder on second renewal and you are incorrect about the right of a store/business to restrict your carrying concealed. You would be violating NC law if they have a sign posted assuming the sign meets the siza an location specified by NC law. Here is a part of the NC General Statute that pertains to this:
§ 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
(a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law.

…..where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises. …

If you wish additional information about the laws, check out:
http://www.ncleg.net and search general statutes.

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jandcfamily wrote:

I also am an NC CCP holder on second renewal and you are incorrect about the right of a store/business to restrict your carrying concealed. You would be violating NC law if they have a sign posted assuming the sign meets the siza an location specified by NC law. Here is a part of the NC General Statute that pertains to this:
§ 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
(a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law.

…..where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises. …

If you wish additional information about the laws, check out:
http://www.ncleg.net and search general statutes.

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Welcome to the forum! You've misinterpreted and misquoted the law. This is the entire section:

(c) A permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in the
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]areas prohibited by G.S. 14-269.2, 14-269.3, 14-269.4, and 14-277.2, in an area[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]prohibited by rule adopted under G.S. 120-32.1, in any area prohibited by 18[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]U.S.C. s 922 or any other federal law, in a law enforcement or correctional[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]facility, in a building housing only State or federal offices, in an office of[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]the State or federal government that is not located in a building exclusively[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]occupied by the State or federal government, a financial institution, or any[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]other premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]possession or control of the premises. It shall be unlawful for a person, with[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]or without a permit, to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]any time while the person has remaining in his body any alcohol or in his blood[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]a controlled substance previously consumed, but a person does not violate this[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]condition if a controlled substance in his blood was lawfully obtained and[/font]
[font="Times New Roman,Times"]taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts.[/font]

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Now read the bold parts as one sentence: "A permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in...any other premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises."

The key here is that no where in that statement does it say that "it shall be unlawful" or "it shall be a crime to", etc., therefore it is not "otherwise prohibited by law". It is not a crime to be on someone else's PRIVATE property with a concealed handgun, sign posted or not. Ignoring their sign is nothing more than disobeying their private policy, which holds no legal weight, either.

The only point at which this would become a legal issue is if you refused to leave after being asked to. This would, of course, be trespassing. At that point, you couldn't argue that you had a "right" to be there armed, since the law states that the permit doesn't authorize you to carry where a sign is posted.

Last, but most certainly not least, anything that says "concealed" has absolutely NO effect on openly carrying a firearm, so that entire section is meaningless as long as you're not concealed.

With all of that being said, I am not a lawyer, and if anyone feels anything that I've said is wrong, please let me know.

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I did not mis-quote the law; I did (for the sake of space and time) only show the pertinent parts. And, yes you are correct in stating that itdoes not appear to be a criminal offenseto dis-obey the sign except that if one is asked to leave by an authorized representative of the business and the individual refuses (whether open or concealed carry) the owner/manager can call LE and have you charged with trespassing. Now I don't think that would reflect well on us that appreciate the Second Amendment rights.

Neither am I an attorneyhowever I work at the NCGA and have about 200+ attorneys working in the same building that I do and since they did the research and actually wrote the original drafts of the law, I would suppose they would have a pretty good opinion of what the law was intended to say. The opinion of two of those (answered confidentially) is that while no punishment is specified that does not mean that it is not a crime and that the AG would probably rule that it is law and enforceable with penalties. There are other conditionsin the statute specifying where we can carry and where we cannot that do not specify penalties but are still part of thestatute.

In reality the AG would have to render a decision if it were submitted to him. I really think we are all better off not making waves because in the long run the anti-second amendment crowd usually wins when there is a legal decision on those rights. I guess the SC will in the next fewweeks prove me either right or wrong on that statement when they rule on the Washington DC case.

Since neither of us are attorneys, I doubt that either one of our interpretations would follow the legal analysis processes used by the "professionals" in rendering a legal decision on that or any other statute and therefore just opinions worth about 2 cents total.

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I like to think that my opinion is worth .40 cents, just because that's what I usually carry .

It's tough when you compare what they meant when they made the law, and what they said. I've always been under the impression that the words are what matter in the long run, which is why laws have to be written so carefully.

Anyway thank you for presenting your side in an informed, intelligent matter, and allowing me to do the same. It looks like you'll be a good addition to this forum!

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I got a phone call :celebrate Just not from Corporate.

A friendly female manager called me from the Wal-Mart the incidnet occured at. She appologized for the behavior of the asst. manager and said she would have a talk to him about how he approached me. She also said he is from TN. and is unfamilar with NC laws.

She then said she saw no big deal with me carrying a firearm in the store but that she would call corporate and the local police about the rules and laws for carrying and then would call me back.

About 10 mins later she called me back saying she had contacted the Jacksonville PD and this is what they told her

1)they WILL arrest ANYONE carrying a firearm in Jacksonville without a permit. She seemed to indicate that they said Open carry would also be arrested.

2)My TX. CHL is not valid in the state of NC, and that only NC CHL permits were valid herewhich is totall BS, unless the recipicating agreements betwenall the statesgot revoked sometime recently and I didn't hear about it.

I told herthat the local law enforcement agencies are notoriously ill informed about firearms laws and suggested she contact the state Attorney General's office. I told her that when I first started to carry in NC I called THREE local law enforcement offices and they all gave me diffrent awnsers and that I didn't have it fully cleared up for me untill I called the AG's office.

She said she was suprized by that and I assured her that my TX. CHL was valid in NC AND that the police cannot arrest me or anyone else for simply ocing. She said that the police said they would arrest me for "inciting panic" or some such crap. I'm surpised thatthey didn't pull the ol "Going Armed to the Terror of the People" out on her LOL

Anyway over all it was a good conversation and she seems to support carrying in the Wal-Mart as long as it doesn't break any rules. :dude:



By the way I asked her if she had worked at the "old" Wal-Mart across town and she said she was a manager there for some time before they transfered her to the "new" Wal-Mart. I let her know that me and many others have OCed into that Wal-Mart numerous times and never had a problem.

She said she would look into it and so far has put forth some effort. I must say I am impressed. The next time she calls me (which she insisted she would) I'm going to arrange a face to face metting with her so we can shake hands and put faces with the voice on the other end of the phone.