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Thread: No Constitutional Duty to Protect

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    As the description says. Why? Every law case [Castlerock vs Gonzales, Warren vs. District of Columbia, Riss v. New York, DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, etc. etc.] has upheld the fact they don't have to save anyone, so why do they get all of the exceptions in their case? The common citizen has better statistics of helping each other as it was the case before police forces were erected in the mid 1800s. I just don't get it especially when we are rather LEO heavy [not a bad thing] in terms of agencies, however, we as the common citizen, our rights get shredded and legislated out of the door with every Brady-minded fool. Also, I read about all these businesses make exceptions for LE but not you, their would-be or already paying customer. Where are the businesses that not only accept but promote your rights, not just some but all? Where are the signs that say, "I hope your packing, because you are responsible for you, citizen!" Open Carry should be everywhere not just rural Kansas but especially on the mean streets of Chicago, the Bronx, and Durham.

    People keep talking about budgets, economy, etc. I just think if you get all of these special privileges and powers and you just show up to take notes and pat people on the back telling them you can do nothing and pull off in a car that your taxes paid for emblazoned with "serve and protect" something is very wrong. What happened to our American values? Will we turn into Mex-Ameri-Canada and everything is just on paper but not in practice?

    Hard to say.

    Custodian
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    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    I think LEOs aren't responsible for saving anyone just because of money issues. Imagine, if they were responsible, how many lawsuits there would be. That's way too much money to keep a department running.

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    They don't have a duty to and nor should they. Its dumb to think that it is evenpossible for a police officer to be able to be at all places in time to stop crimes. Most police officers I would say are very good and would do all they could to help you, but most of the time it isn't possible to help you unless by sheer chance they are at the right place at the right time.

    That's why ifone isseriously concerned abouthis ownlife,he does not rely on police (or anyone else)to protect it. Instead,onetakeshis safety into his ownhands. If a police officer is available to help you, all the better, but I wouldn't place any bets.

    Of course, leading politicians think that you should be helpless unless youhappen to be lucky enough to have a police officer watching when something happens.



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    I agree wholeheartedly. So why the big lie about how the police is protecting people? They are keeping the peace [well sort of...], taking notes and solving crimes after the fact. I dont need some civil servant to do my job for me. My problem is that we are systematically being stripped by these liberals to become subjects in our own land.

    RKBA it is so simple and beautiful on paper and yet it has been legislated to the hilt. And this seems to be okay with these metropolis cities and states like New York, D.C., and other places above Mason/Dixon which have seemingly taken it lying down and have become their own republics and now finally its creeping to the south as liberals come here for jobs and look at us southern people and say something isn't right.

    What I still dont get is how every state makes their own rules when they are part of this union? Did the second civil war pass me by? I dont recall any states seceding from the union. They all hold out their hands when its time to pass out our tax money, but when it comes to securing your rights, they get fits of extended amnesia rife with harumphs. At times I think we are top heavy in government. And as government expands, liberty does contract. These people work for us, and they need a wake up call and remember they represent us not the special interests thats how they got that cushy office and hot secretary.

    Perhaps Ive said too much.
    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    Viva larevolucion?

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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    They don't have a duty to and nor should they. Its dumb to think that it is evenpossible for a police officer to be able to be at all places in time to stop crimes. Most police officers I would say are very good and would do all they could to help you, but most of the time it isn't possible to help you unless by sheer chance they are at the right place at the right time.

    That's why ifone isseriously concerned abouthis ownlife,he does not rely on police (or anyone else)to protect it. Instead,onetakeshis safety into his ownhands. If a police officer is available to help you, all the better, but I wouldn't place any bets.

    Of course, leading politicians think that you should be helpless unless youhappen to be lucky enough to have a police officer watching when something happens.

    Ding, ding, ding!!! We have winner.

    A police officer's job is to maintain law and order, not be anyone's personal body guard.




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    I believe your frustations are misplaced.

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    I agree with Custodian completely except that it is not North v. South. It is the intellectually arrogant and common sense challenged (mostly liberal)community "leaders"that have caused this. Most LEOs understand and don't want assigned undoable jobs. They understand that a community that takes responsibility for its own, is a safer place to live. If you think most people are good, let them all carry guns. The more the better. Pretty hard for gangs to intimidate an armed public. Watch your neighbor's back and defend your community. Organize your millitia. (interesting that millitia isn't even in this spell check) The gun laws in California have more words than the New Testament....that my friends is infringement on our right to bear arms. Ace

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    Custodian wrote:
    As the description says. Why? Every law case [Castlerock vs Gonzales, Warren vs. District of Columbia, Riss v. New York, DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, etc. etc.] has upheld the fact they don't have to save anyone, so why do they get all of the exceptions in their case? The common citizen has better statistics of helping each other as it was the case before police forces were erected in the mid 1800s. I just don't get it especially when we are rather LEO heavy [not a bad thing] in terms of agencies, however, we as the common citizen, our rights get shredded and legislated out of the door with every Brady-minded fool. Also, I read about all these businesses make exceptions for LE but not you, their would-be or already paying customer. Where are the businesses that not only accept but promote your rights, not just some but all? Where are the signs that say, "I hope your packing, because you are responsible for you, citizen!" Open Carry should be everywhere not just rural Kansas but especially on the mean streets of Chicago, the Bronx, and Durham.

    People keep talking about budgets, economy, etc. I just think if you get all of these special privileges and powers and you just show up to take notes and pat people on the back telling them you can do nothing and pull off in a car that your taxes paid for emblazoned with "serve and protect" something is very wrong. What happened to our American values? Will we turn into Mex-Ameri-Canada and everything is just on paper but not in practice?

    Hard to say.

    Custodian
    POLICE HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THE INDIVIDUAL (NOR SHOULD THEY)

    http://publicrights.org/Kennesaw/PoliceResponsibility.html






    Police have no legal duty to respond and prevent crime or protect the victim. There have BEEN OVER 10 various supreme and state court cases the individual has never won. Notably, the Supreme Court STATED about the responsibility of police for the security of your family and loved ones is "You, and only you, are responsible for your security and the security of your family and loved ones. That was the essence of a U.S. Supreme Court decision in the early 1980's when they ruled that the police do not have a duty to protect you as an individual, but to protect society as a whole."
    "It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection."

    Sources:
    7/15/05 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES No. 04-278 TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, PETITIONER v. JESSICA GONZALES, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS NEXT BEST FRIEND OF HER DECEASED MINOR CHILDREN, REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, AND LESLIE GONZALES
    On June 27, in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court found that Jessica Gonzales did not have a constitutional right to individual police protection even in the presence of a restraining order. Mrs. Gonzales' husband with a track record of violence, stabbing Mrs. Gonzales to death, Mrs. Gonzales' family could not get the Supreme Court to change their unanimous decision for one's individual protection. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN FOLKS AND GOVERNMENT BODIES ARE REFUSING TO PASS THE Safety Ordinance.
    (1) Richard W. Stevens. 1999. Dial 911 and Die. Hartford, Wisconsin: Mazel Freedom Press.
    (2) Barillari v. City of Milwaukee, 533 N.W.2d 759 (Wis. 1995).
    (3) Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982).
    (4) DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189 (1989).
    (5) Ford v. Town of Grafton, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998).
    (6) Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. 1981).
    "...a government and its agencies are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981)

    (7) "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of NY which now denies all responsibility to her."
    Riss v. New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579,293 N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 806 (1958).

    (8) "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."
    Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 (N.C. App. 1989)

    New York Times, Washington DC
    Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone By LINDA GREENHOUSE Published: June 28, 2005
    The ruling applies even for a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.



    And LEO's / Civilians wonder why I carry ??? The FACT that it is RULED by the U.S SUPREME COURT that ANY LEO Agency is NOT responsible for the Individual but for the Public ONLY.AFTER I share this info, which they first don't believe, start a different kind of thinking and understanding. It's always funny to see the look on a LEO's face when telling what their "duties" are towards me.

    Spread the Word,

    TJ

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    Makes you wonder who's side the anti-gun lobby is on. They always claim the pro-gun rights group are funded by gun manufacturers. I wonder how many criminals have supported them. :what: Ace

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    The only look on my face, TJ, when you tell me what my duties are, would be the look of irritation.

    It always amazes how people who have never done my job know it better than I, who has done it for 8 years now.

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    We have been lectured at length, ad nauseam, on the proper duties and attitudes of a "copper", thank you.

    You might review the logical fallacy of 'argument from authority,' because you imply cop-ness in your nom-de-'net, and its logical contrapositive of personal attack.

    Do you suppose that your review board, often with a citizen component, doesn't know the better performance of your job?

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    I'm notsure I'd want the police responsible for personal safety.

    Essentially, that is saying that government is responsible for individual safety.

    Look at how that could be turned around on us--communism, where the state supposedly takes care of everything, which is another way of saying the state is responsible for everything.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Have I ever come to your place of employment and told you how to do your job?

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    We don't have a "citizen review board" We have a grand jury.

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    Have I ever come to your place of employment and told you how to do your job?

    You know, I can think of a whole lot of times the law tells me how to do my job. Sometimes it is a good law, but just as often, it is a stupid law. How many times does a ( usually young) LEO have to nitpick to try to make a name for himself. For every one of us trying to make something for the Gross National Product, there are two regulators trying to justify their jobs. AND Legislators are self-proclaimed experts on EVERYTHING. Ace

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    ChopperCopper wrote:
    Have I ever come to your place of employment and told you how to do your job?
    The difference there is that we don't work for the police. The police, however, work for us (the citizens).

    It is a patriot's duty to question the actions of government and it's agents. Whats that word again...........oh, yeah: Freedom.

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    You are absolutely right, question away. But that is not the issue of debate. I know how to do my job, and do not need someone to tell me.

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    Just how I feel when Hypo comes to check how a load is secured. I'm sure most have never done it themselves. The younger they are the more "ideas" they have. Everybody....every housewife and deskjocky has an idea how to do everyone else's job. Until you become King, you will have to listen to the customer. Grow up, get used to it. It is the price of democracy. Ace

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    While I am on the street, I do not put up with it. Regardless of how you feel about it. Now, in a setting where ideas are to be shared, I will gladly listen to any suggestions a person may have. But like I said, when it's two in the morning and someone walks up to me and tries to tell me how to do my job, they will be put in their place.

    Now, if the same person asks me to do something for them, come hell or highwater, I will make sure that person walks away knowing that we are always there to help.

    Example:

    Premis: Me at gas station at 0200hrs.

    A person walks up and pointedly tells me they just walked two miles to this gas station from their broken down car and demands that I help them and take them back.

    In this case, I would explain to them that they are a grown adult, and that this is a gas station with a phone, so they can help themselves.

    The same person walks up and explains that they just walked two miles here from their broken down car and asks if I could give them a hand.

    I would dispatch a tow truck myself, get them some water, give them a ride back, and wait until the tow truck arrived and they were well on their way before I left.

    You have every right to expect law enforcement to do their jobs. But we are all humans and no one likes being told what to do.

    And before you say it, yes, I tell people what to do, and no they don't like it. But I only do so when I have the authority to do it.

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    ChopperCopper wrote:
    While I am on the street, I do not put up with it. Regardless of how you feel about it. Now, in a setting where ideas are to be shared, I will gladly listen to any suggestions a person may have. But like I said, when it's two in the morning and someone walks up to me and tries to tell me how to do my job, they will be put in their place.

    Now, if the same person asks me to do something for them, come hell or highwater, I will make sure that person walks away knowing that we are always there to help.

    Example:

    Premis: Me at gas station at 0200hrs.

    A person walks up and pointedly tells me they just walked two miles to this gas station from their broken down car and demands that I help them and take them back.

    In this case, I would explain to them that they are a grown adult, and that this is a gas station with a phone, so they can help themselves.

    The same person walks up and explains that they just walked two miles here from their broken down car and asks if I could give them a hand.

    I would dispatch a tow truck myself, get them some water, give them a ride back, and wait until the tow truck arrived and they were well on their way before I left.

    You have every right to expect law enforcement to do their jobs. But we are all humans and no one likes being told what to do.

    And before you say it, yes, I tell people what to do, and no they don't like it. But I only do so when I have the authority to do it.
    In a scenario such as that, I can understand how you would feel that way. We all expect, and most of us deserve, common courtesy.

    I think that you will find that the vast majority of posters here are not anti-law enforcement. What we are is anti-law enforcement abuse, the abuse of the rights of the citizens by the police.

    Let's face it: the police are recruited from society at large. A few bad apples will always slip through the cracks.





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    glocknroll wrote:
    In a scenario such as that, I can understand how you would feel that way. We all expect, and most of us deserve, common courtesy.

    I think that you will find that the vast majority of posters here are not anti-law enforcement. What we are is anti-law enforcement abuse, the abuse of the rights of the citizens by the police.

    Let's face it: the police are recruited from society at large. A few bad apples will always slip through the cracks.
    Hear hear. The "us vs. them" attitude (from both sides) gets tiring. Cop forum members: don't get all up in arms if someone complains about abuse from a cop. You are not a bad cop? Then no-one is accusing you of anything. And if they are, they need to cut it out. Same for all the non-police members. If a cop is complaining about someone doing something stupid that deserves the treatment they got, and it wasn't you, don't take it personally.

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    ALL people should remain cautious to one another. All citizens should expect assistance from the police if they are in trouble and the police are not heading off a more important crisis. If not, paint out the protect and serve on you car or add the word "yourself". Where I come from, we help each other....we don't say, "That's not my job description." It IS a part of yours.

    What I hear you say is, "If I like em I help em. If I don't they can go to hell." You are NOT a private citizen when you wear that uniform.

    Ace

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    ace1001 wrote:
    ALL people should remain cautious to one another. All citizens should expect assistance from the police if they are in trouble and the police are not heading off a more important crisis. If not, paint out the protect and serve on you car or add the word "yourself". Where I come from, we help each other....we don't say, "That's not my job description." It IS a part of yours.

    What I hear you say is, "If I like em I help em. If I don't they can go to hell." You are NOT a private citizen when you wear that uniform.

    Ace
    I can't help what you hear, but you are not listening to what I said. It is not my job to do for people what they can do for themselves.

    You can think what you want, it matters not to me. I have many letters of thanks in my personnel file for doing courteous things for courteous people.

    But please continue, I keep forgetting what my duties are.

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