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Thread: Support SB 436, bill on its way to the Governors desk.

  1. #1
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    Need to tell your representatives to support SB 436 which would allow Virginians to legally carry a handgun in the glove box of their car, regardless of whether they have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. This directly helps those who wish to carry openly without a CCW, but sometimes find they have to visit a secure location and want to place their gun out of plain sight in their car while they conduct their business.

    The Brady bunch is already trying to organize opposition, so make sure our side is heard as well.

    Scout

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    All ready taken care of....

    In fact I received this today from my delegate, Mark Cole,about HB424:

    Thank you for contacting me regarding House Bill 424 which would allows full-time faculty members of state institutions of higher education who possess a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun on campus. I agree with you and have signed on as a co-patron of the bill. I will certainly do what I can to help the bill pass.

    Thanks,


    Mark Cole


    I REALLY like this guy! :celebrate

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    Are you saying you want people to be able to hide their gun in the glove box while thevehicle is occupied?

    This of course would be easily accessible and concealed from view during a traffic stop.

    I have no problem locking up a gun in the glove box just prior to exiting the vehicle.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Are you saying you want people to be able to hide their gun in the glove box while thevehicle is occupied?

    This of course would be easily accessible and concealed from view during a traffic stop.

    I have no problem locking up a gun in the glove box just prior to exiting the vehicle.
    Except that not all glove compartments have locks on them (which would put you into legal violation if currently used), nor do all cars have trunks. I've even heard there are some legal opinions/rulings that even if the GB is locked that can still be construed as accessable and thus not allowed under the saddle bag law. Thus theissue of what to do with a loaded gun when you have such a vehicle and must visit a secured area is very much an issue for those who carry openly and do not have a CCW. However, I really don't consider a glove compartment to be "easily accessable" given how much trouble I always have trying to get something out of one from the driver's seat.Nevermind the time it would take to get a gun from there and then turn around enough in the seat to bring it to bear out the driver's window. Though I have to say if I had a gun in there during a traffic stop and didn't clip that information to the visor, I would certainly mention it to the officer before digging around in there. Personally, I would like to see a federal/state mandate that requires all facilities in which a person is not able to carry (openly or concealed) shall be required to provide secure storage just inside the entry point and prior to the security zone. Probably with a rope barrier and a guard to grantentrance sothat security doesn't get in to much of a panic when the person draws out the gun to put it in the locker. Until such facilities are required and provided, it is reasonable and proper to allow people the means to store their guns out of sight in a specific location. It will just give the officer one more thing to watch, but I suspect most officers watch what is going on in the glove box anyway since you never know what sort of evidence will be uncovered by their actions to recover their registration.



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    SC ST SEC 16-23-20 Unlawful carrying of handgun; exceptions.

    It is unlawful for anyone to carry about the person any handgun, whether concealed or not, except as follows, unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law:
    (1)[ ... ]
    (9) a person in a vehicle if the handgun is: (a) secured in a closed glove compartment, closed console, closed trunk, or in a closed container secured by an integral fastener and transported in the luggage compartment of the vehicle; however, this item is not violated if the glove compartment, console, or trunk is opened in the presence of a law enforcement officer for the sole purpose of retrieving a driver's license, registration, or proof of insurance; or

    (b) concealed on or about his person, and he has a valid concealed weapons permit pursuant to the provisions of Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23;
    Works fine in South Carolina.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Are you saying you want people to be able to hide their gun in the glove box while thevehicle is occupied?

    This of course would be easily accessible and concealed from view during a traffic stop.
    in Kentucky the glove box is the ONLY place in the vehicle where it's not considered concealed. In a strongside belt holster (even open carry like) is considered concealed as soon as you sit in the vehicle.

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    FightingGlock19 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Are you saying you want people to be able to hide their gun in the glove box while thevehicle is occupied?

    This of course would be easily accessible and concealed from view during a traffic stop.
    in Kentucky the glove box is the ONLY place in the vehicle where it's not considered concealed. In a strongside belt holster (even open carry like) is considered concealed as soon as you sit in the vehicle.
    Plus one has to consider from an LEO stand point. Would you rather they have it in the glove compartment, or on the driver's side. The first would be considerably less accessable IMO, and certainly give you a much better chance of seeing what they are up to prior to being down range of the muzzle.



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    If the glove box is locked.... sure. But one can quickly and easily get it with little effort.

    If the glove box is OK then why not under your seat??? What is the difference? In both places you cannot see it and the driver can get to it easy enough by reaching for it.

    And if not the driver.. how about the passenger?

    I say out in the open or unloaded and locked up.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I say out in the open or unloaded and locked up.
    out in the open? Where, in the average vehicle, can a handgun be placed and NOT be concealed while one is walking around, or up to,a car?

    How is having the gun "out on the open" making it less of a risk of officer Johnny Law being 10-7'd by Larry the shitbag Criminal?

    I sure hope the next time I drive to VA's Tidewater, you provide a police escort for me the whole way to protect me from the evil that may be, because from the looks of the "Us & Them" attitude you're showing means I'll have to keep everything all locked up.

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    FightingGlock19 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I say out in the open or unloaded and locked up.
    out in the open? Where, in the average vehicle, can a handgun be placed and NOT be concealed while one is walking around, or up to,a car?

    How is having the gun "out on the open" making it less of a risk of officer Johnny Law being 10-7'd by Larry the shitbag Criminal?

    I sure hope the next time I drive to VA's Tidewater, you provide a police escort for me the whole way to protect me from the evil that may be, because from the looks of the "Us & Them" attitude you're showing means I'll have to keep everything all locked up.

    I, myself, like to put mine on the dash. Gotten a few looks, but the the best one was one VERY good looking lady that took a pic of me and the gun as we sat in traffic one day and she just smiled

    TJ


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    If the glove box is locked.... sure. But one can quickly and easily get it with little effort.

    If the glove box is OK then why not under your seat??? What is the difference? In both places you cannot see it and the driver can get to it easy enough by reaching for it.

    And if not the driver.. how about the passenger?

    I say out in the open or unloaded and locked up.
    I like the idea of anywhere in the vehicle as you suggest. Just like your house. The gun should be accessable to the law-abiding citizens without having to keep it out in the open.

    Criminals already do this and nothing will stop them from contining to do so.

    It is a citizen-safety issue.


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    If the glove box is locked.... sure. But one can quickly and easily get it with little effort.

    If the glove box is OK then why not under your seat??? What is the difference? In both places you cannot see it and the driver can get to it easy enough by reaching for it.

    And if not the driver.. how about the passenger?

    I say out in the open or unloaded and locked up.
    Here in Nevada, concealed carry in the vehicle is completely legal (so long as the firearm is not concealed upon your person) without a permit. Concealed in glove box, center console, under seat, or openly, such as in dashboard, passenger seat, cup holder, etc.

    I normally carry holstered OC-stlye, and though not "concealed" per definition of law, completely invisible during a traffic stop.

    Due to work restrictions on firearms, I carry my firearm in my cupholder to/from work so I can lock it up just before arriving without unbuckling my seat belt to unholster it - I lock it in the glove box with a key.

    Isn't this a trivial matter though? Criminals will ignore the law anyway and conceal whether it's legal or not. Those who choose to follow the law are not a risk to LE, so concealed within the vehicle ought to not make criminals out of regular people (non criminals).

    Whether required to do so or not, I would imagine most non-criminals will tell LE of a firearm in the vehicle during a traffic stop (unless they are in fact semi-"criminals" because they're carrying in some communist place like Maryland or Illinois). Though it's been a while since I've been pulled over (knocks wood), what I've read on the various state forums here is that some LE encounters where the citizen reveals they are legally carrying result in leniency on the part of LE, who recognizes the citizen as one of the "good guys". If there were no other reason to do so, possible leniency from a ticket is a good enough reason!

    Edited to add last paragraph

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    If the glove box is locked.... sure. But one can quickly and easily get it with little effort.

    If the glove box is OK then why not under your seat??? What is the difference? In both places you cannot see it and the driver can get to it easy enough by reaching for it.

    And if not the driver.. how about the passenger?

    I say out in the open or unloaded and locked up.
    Not all glove boxes come equiped with locks. Duh.



    Further the difference between the glove box and under the seat is that you have ONE specific location where it can be. If, you as an LEO, don't see a difference then maybe we should suggest that we should be able to hide a loaded gun ANYWHERE in the car.



    Oh, and passengers are already exempt. The current limitations on hiding a gun in a car only apply to the driver anyway, whether it is accessable to a passenger is not addressed just as long as it isn't accessable to the driver.



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    Scout wrote:
    Not all glove boxes come equiped with locks. Duh.


    Further the difference between the glove box and under the seat is that you have ONE specific location where it can be. If, you as an LEO, don't see a difference then maybe we should suggest that we should be able to hide a loaded gun ANYWHERE in the car.


    Oh, and passengers are already exempt. The current limitations on hiding a gun in a car only apply to the driver anyway, whether it is accessable to a passenger is not addressed just as long as it isn't accessable to the driver.
    No lock... no storage. Duh!

    Please provide a cite for this exemption you speak of regarding passengers.

    If I stop a car and the passenger places a gun under his seat.. he is going to be charged if having a concealed weapon unless he has a CC permit.

    The unofficial rule is.... the owner of the property is the person sitting above it or closest to it.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    The unofficial rule is.... the owner of the property is the person sitting above it or closest to it.
    Cite please. Is this police practice or common law or something else?

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Scout wrote:
    Not all glove boxes come equiped with locks. Duh.


    Further the difference between the glove box and under the seat is that you have ONE specific location where it can be. If, you as an LEO, don't see a difference then maybe we should suggest that we should be able to hide a loaded gun ANYWHERE in the car.


    Oh, and passengers are already exempt. The current limitations on hiding a gun in a car only apply to the driver anyway, whether it is accessable to a passenger is not addressed just as long as it isn't accessable to the driver.
    No lock... no storage. Duh!

    Please provide a cite for this exemption you speak of regarding passengers.

    If I stop a car and the passenger places a gun under his seat.. he is going to be charged if having a concealed weapon unless he has a CC permit.

    The unofficial rule is.... the owner of the property is the person sitting above it or closest to it.
    I looked and it seems they have reworded the language. It use to address access by the driver, but today it simply mentions person. So I suppose this no longer applies, but I suspect a good defense could be made particularly when the driver can prove the gun belonged to him and if the passenger disavows all knowledge of the gun being there.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Scout wrote:
    Oh, and passengers are already exempt. The current limitations on hiding a gun in a car only apply to the driver anyway, whether it is accessable to a passenger is not addressed just as long as it isn't accessable to the driver.
    No lock... no storage. Duh!

    Please provide a cite for this exemption you speak of regarding passengers.

    If I stop a car and the passenger places a gun under his seat.. he is going to be charged if having a concealed weapon unless he has a CC permit.

    The unofficial rule is.... the owner of the property is the person sitting above it or closest to it.
    Are you saying that if I am driving my car with a gun concealed in in the glovebox (I have a CHP) but my wife is riding in the passenger seat (she does not have a CHP... yet) that you could arrest her for possessing a concealed weapon?

    http://www.virginia1774.org/Page1.html#ConcealedWeapon

    Constructive Possession of Concealed Firearm
    "To support a conviction based upon constructive possession, "the Commonwealth must point to evidence of acts, statements, or conduct of the accused or other facts or circumstances which tend to show that the defendant was aware of both the presence and character of the substance and that it was subject to his dominion and control." Powers v. Commonwealth, 227 Va. 474, 476, 316 S.E.2d 739, 740 (1984). Possession "need not always be exclusive. The defendant may share it with one or more." Josephs v. Commonwealth, 10 Va. App. 87, 89, 390 S.E.2d 491, 497 (1990) (en banc). However, mere proximity to a controlled item, such as a gun or narcotics, is not legally sufficient by itself to establish dominion and control. Wright v. Commonwealth, 217 Va. 669, 670, 232 S.E.2d 733, 734 (1977); Fogg v. Commonwealth, 216 Va. 394, 395, 219 S.E.2d 672, 673 (1975)...Thus, the evidence proved only that appellant was an occupant of a vehicle and in close proximity to the hidden revolver. This circumstantial evidence is legally insufficient to prove possession. See Powers, 227 Va. at 476, 316 S.E.2d at 740; Hancock, 21 Va. App. at 472, 465 S.E.2d at 141-42; see also Myers v. Commonwealth, 43 Va. App. 113, 121-23, 596 S.E.2d 536, 540 (2004) (applying Hancock to reverse conviction for passenger's constructive possession of firearm secreted on passenger's floorboard inside blanket)."



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    longwatch wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    The unofficial rule is.... the owner of the property is the person sitting above it or closest to it.
    Cite please. Is this police practice or common law or something else?
    Case law. See cases regardingConstructive Possession

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Are you saying you want people to be able to hide their gun in the glove box while thevehicle is occupied?

    This of course would be easily accessible and concealed from view during a traffic stop.

    I have no problem locking up a gun in the glove box just prior to exiting the vehicle.
    In Missouri if youcan legally possess a handgun you may carry it concealed in a automobile without a permit anywhere you wish and you are not required to notify LE unless asked. Seems to be no big deal to LEO's .

    They don't carry extra Depends or have dampunderwear all day from the thoughts of a weapon not being visable during a traffic stop.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    From todays VA-ALERT.

    Code:
    LOCKED CONTAINER
    
    Senator Vogel's locked container bill, which allows a loaded gun in a  
    locked container or a locked compartment in a vehicle or boat, SB   
    436, passed by a veto-proof 69 to 29!
    
    This vote, too,  was bipartisan and should send a strong message to  
    Governor Kaine that a large portion of the House and Senate want this  
    bill signed into law.
    
    VCDL thanks the following Delegates for supporting this important bill:
    
    Abbitt, Albo, Alexander, Armstrong, Athey, Barlow, Bell, Bouchard,  
    Bowling, Byron, Carrico, Cline, Cole, Cosgrove, Cox, Crockett-Stark,  
    Dance, Fralin, Frederick, Gear, Gilbert, Griffith, Hamilton, Hargrove,
    
    Hogan, Algie Howell, Hugo, Iaquinto, Ingram, Janis, Joannou, Johnson,  
    Chris Jones, Kilgore, Landes, Lewis, Lingamfelter, Lohr, Loupassi,  
    Daniel Marshall, Bob Marshall, Massie, May, Merricks, Jackson Miller,  
    Morgan, Nichols, Nixon, Nutter, O'Bannon, Oder, Orrock, Peace,  
    Phillips, Pogge, Poindexter, Pollard, Purkey, Putney, Saxman, Ed  
    Scott, Sherwood, Shuler, Suit, Tata, Valentine, Lee Ware, Wright, Mr.  
    Speaker  (Bill Howell)
    
    The battle for this bill was a strong one, as well.
    
    The bill was carried on the Floor by Delegate Athey, who had an  
    identical bill that was never heard in the House.
    
    Delegates Carrico and Jackson Miller deserve special thanks for  
    effectively rebutting Delegate McClellan, who said that the bill would
    
    get police officers killed.  Carrico, who is a retired Virginia State  
    Police officer, and Miller, who is currently a police officer with the
    
    Prince William County PD, said that officers are trained to assume all
    
    vehicles contain a weapon and that SB 436 would not endanger the
    police.

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    longwatch wrote:
    From todays VA-ALERT.

    Code:
    LOCKED CONTAINER
    
    Senator Vogel's locked container bill, which allows a loaded gun in a 
    locked container or a locked compartment in a vehicle or boat, SB 
    436, passed by a veto-proof 69 to 29!
    
    This vote, too, was bipartisan and should send a strong message to 
    Governor Kaine that a large portion of the House and Senate want this 
    bill signed into law.
    
    VCDL thanks the following Delegates for supporting this important bill:
    
    Abbitt, Albo, Alexander, Armstrong, Athey, Barlow, Bell, Bouchard, 
    Bowling, Byron, Carrico, Cline, Cole, Cosgrove, Cox, Crockett-Stark, 
    Dance, Fralin, Frederick, Gear, Gilbert, Griffith, Hamilton, Hargrove,
    
    Hogan, Algie Howell, Hugo, Iaquinto, Ingram, Janis, Joannou, Johnson, 
    Chris Jones, Kilgore, Landes, Lewis, Lingamfelter, Lohr, Loupassi, 
    Daniel Marshall, Bob Marshall, Massie, May, Merricks, Jackson Miller, 
    Morgan, Nichols, Nixon, Nutter, O'Bannon, Oder, Orrock, Peace, 
    Phillips, Pogge, Poindexter, Pollard, Purkey, Putney, Saxman, Ed 
    Scott, Sherwood, Shuler, Suit, Tata, Valentine, Lee Ware, Wright, Mr. 
    Speaker (Bill Howell)
    
    The battle for this bill was a strong one, as well.
    
    The bill was carried on the Floor by Delegate Athey, who had an 
    identical bill that was never heard in the House.
    
    Delegates Carrico and Jackson Miller deserve special thanks for 
    effectively rebutting Delegate McClellan, who said that the bill would
    
    get police officers killed. Carrico, who is a retired Virginia State 
    Police officer, and Miller, who is currently a police officer with the
    
    Prince William County PD, said that officers are trained to assume all
    
    vehicles contain a weapon and that SB 436 would not endanger the
    police.

    I'm so happy right now...Hopefully the Governor will just sign them and not delay these any further

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