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Ammunition serialization bill (HB 3359)

John Hardin

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sv_libertarian wrote:
Hawaii and one other state (I can't recall which one) also have introduced serialization bills.
Mississississippippi has, see the link I posted. According to NRA-ILA, Tennessee has too. Google got an Illinois hit.

I think I saw somewhere that about six states have just done this, so it seems to be a coordinated effort.

Don't forget, this will probably lie quietly in its coffin, to again rise from the dead and terrorize peaceful citizens at the opening of the next legislative session. Sharpen your pitchforks and stakes.

Related:

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=3423

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=227

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=178&issue=005

http://www.isra.org/legislation/

Looks like Hawaii's bill is dead (or perhaps undead) too:

http://www.nssf.org/BP/current/
ALOHA (GOODBYE) BULLET SERIALIZATION BILL . . . Hawaii legislation HB 2392, which would have banned ammunition by mandating bullet serialization, the process by which each individual round of ammunition is identified and marked with a laser-engraved serial number, was "deferred indefinitely" following strong opposition from sportsmen, gun-owners and firearms enthusiasts.
Gargle:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ammunition+serialization+bill
 

expvideo

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But this new legislation will protect us from criminals. What's wrong with that? Is it not worth the extra 300% cost of ammo to make it so that criminals can be caught? This seems flawless to me.

We should have government sanctioned healthcare and a cubic inch tax on vehicles too.
 

joeroket

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I like how they actually define "Pistol Ammunition" and that it included bullets for use in hand loading or reloading.

What the hell are they going to do about frangible rounds? There is no way to keep them from disintegrating unless they hit tissue.

I don't know about you guys but I am going to be in the market for a rifle round pistol or a .410 pistol if this passes.
 

Decoligny

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
sv_libertarian wrote:
Didn't there used to be some sort of ammo registration requirments with one of the early GCA laws? Finally got tossed out because it was nearly impossible to enforce?
The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia passed this legislation even after being advise by their own people who investigated if it could be done, that the technology did not exist to do this at this time. So law makers don't carry about facts of even if it is feasible, just so they can claim they did something.
http://www.answers.com/topic/firearm-microstamping

Arnold signed legislation that is nowhere near as intrusive as this. All handguns manufactured or sold in CA after a certain date have to have a firing pin that microstamps the brass with the guns serial number. This makes the guns more expensive, but you can still get any ammo you want at the normal cost and you can still reload. It is a useless law that can be skirted by criminals just by buying a new firing pin from another state, or just by using a revolver, no brass left at the crime scene, no numbers to match.

With this new "encoded" ammuntion, the bullet has to have a number on the bottom, and the shell casing has to have the same number engraved inside it. These numbers are registered in a database along with all your personal information when you buy the ammo. You are required to get rid of any "unencoded" ammo by a certain date. You are not allowed to be in possession of any "unencoded" ammo. Reloaders will be SOL. You will not be able to buy ammo from another state that doesn't have "encoded" ammo. If someone steals your ammo, then shoots someone, they will come looking for you, cause your name is tied to the bullet they just removed from some dead guys chest.

Write to your legislators now.

Call your legilators now.

E-mail your legislators now.
 

John Hardin

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Al has responded, and I in turn responded to him:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008, Al O'Brien wrote:

> Thank you for the e-mail John. The bill you mentioned will not get a
> hearing this year. The Police are interested in the concept contained
> in the bill, because it will help them trace where ammunition, used in
> crimes, came from.

Theoretically it _may_, but at what cost to the public? Please remember to
balance the costs of any proposal against its hypothetical benefits.

Here are some further points I didn't cover in my original letter:

Are police departments willing to, or will they even be able to, afford
the much higher ammunition costs that will inevitably result? Will they
reduce their practice time at the shooting range and thus decrease overall
public safety? Or will there be an added exception for "special, LEO-only"
unserialized ammunition?

Unserialized ammunition would become an attractive theft target and black
market commodity; and if police departments cannot reliably keep track of
their weapons (I call to your attention the theft of Seattle police chief
Gil Kerlikowske's personal sidearm from his unattended car as only a
single example), can they realistically be expected to control and account
for every round of their unserialized ammunition? Do we wish to add that
unproductive burden to their already large workload, and further distract
them from doing their real jobs?

Most criminals obtain their firearms directly through theft, or from
back-alley purchase of firearms stolen by someone else. Serialized
ammunition will no doubt be stolen as well. Do you indeed wish to impose a
recordkeeping burden on every law-abiding firearm owner that will force
them to record all of the serial numbers of all of the ammunition they
buy, just in case they get robbed and don't want the police to investigate
*them* for a crime of violence they did not commit? Again, this is a far
greater burden than recording the serial number on a firearm you've
purchased - many firearm owners go through thousands of rounds of
ammunition a year.

How does tracking the serial number of stolen ammunition help solve a
crime? I admit that it might help prove that a given person already in
custody was involved, but many other, better tools already exist to do
that.

And as for police interest: there is a constant balancing process between
the investigative powers of the State and the individual liberties and
freedoms of the People. I personally favor erring on the side of
individual liberties and freedoms - I hope you do as well. Mere interest
in the concept, without a proven track record that it *will* greatly
assist in solving otherwise unsolvable crimes, is far from sufficient
justification for enacting a law with this many serious negative side
effects.

Serialized ammunition is _not_ a workable solution to the problem of
solving crimes at this time, and it probably will never be. The only thing
it will effectively do is ban ammunition from the vast majority of the
law-abiding populace.

And given that inevitable result, I don't see how this proposal can be
anything other than a violation of Article I Section 24 of the Washington
State Constitution. Enacting a requirement that prices ammunition out of
the reach of almost all citizens is clearly an impairment of the right to
bear arms.

Please, please kill this bill. That it will not come to the floor _this_
session is not adequate. Kill it dead, permanently.

Show me that my trust in you is still built on a sound foundation.

Thank you.
Sigh. "police interest". Morris? Any opinions from your perspective on that one?
 

Bear 45/70

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Decoligny wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
sv_libertarian wrote:
Didn't there used to be some sort of ammo registration requirments with one of the early GCA laws? Finally got tossed out because it was nearly impossible to enforce?
The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia passed this legislation even after being advise by their own people who investigated if it could be done, that the technology did not exist to do this at this time. So law makers don't carry about facts of even if it is feasible, just so they can claim they did something.
http://www.answers.com/topic/firearm-microstamping

Arnold signed legislation that is nowhere near as intrusive as this. All handguns manufactured or sold in CA after a certain date have to have a firing pin that microstamps the brass with the guns serial number. This makes the guns more expensive, but you can still get any ammo you want at the normal cost and you can still reload. It is a useless law that can be skirted by criminals just by buying a new firing pin from another state, or just by using a revolver, no brass left at the crime scene, no numbers to match.

With this new "encoded" ammuntion, the bullet has to have a number on the bottom, and the shell casing has to have the same number engraved inside it. These numbers are registered in a database along with all your personal information when you buy the ammo. You are required to get rid of any "unencoded" ammo by a certain date. You are not allowed to be in possession of any "unencoded" ammo. Reloaders will be SOL. You will not be able to buy ammo from another state that doesn't have "encoded" ammo. If someone steals your ammo, then shoots someone, they will come looking for you, cause your name is tied to the bullet they just removed from some dead guys chest.

Write to your legislators now.

Call your legilators now.

E-mail your legislators now.
Since when did the firing pin start hitting the Brass, Thought it hit the primer. But then I've been wrong before.
 

just_a_car

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Since when did the firing pin start hitting the Brass, Thought it hit the primer. But then I've been wrong before.
Don't worry Bear, it's just the stupidity of the media again. They don't recognize that the primer is a seperate part of the shell casing.

Heck, some don't even recognize the difference between an unfired cartridge and a "bullet" fired from a firearm, as evidenced by that Iraqi woman holding an unfired .223 cartridge and claiming it was fired by the Americans and hit her house.... Yeah, only if they threw it.
 

John Hardin

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just_a_car wrote:
Heck, some don't even recognize the difference between an unfired cartridge and a "bullet" fired from a firearm, as evidenced by that Iraqi woman holding an unfired .223 cartridge and claiming it was fired by the Americans and hit her house....
Shooty... No Shooty... Savvy?
 

Decoligny

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Decoligny wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
sv_libertarian wrote:
Didn't there used to be some sort of ammo registration requirments with one of the early GCA laws? Finally got tossed out because it was nearly impossible to enforce?
The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia passed this legislation even after being advise by their own people who investigated if it could be done, that the technology did not exist to do this at this time. So law makers don't carry about facts of even if it is feasible, just so they can claim they did something.
http://www.answers.com/topic/firearm-microstamping

Arnold signed legislation that is nowhere near as intrusive as this. All handguns manufactured or sold in CA after a certain date have to have a firing pin that microstamps the brass with the guns serial number. This makes the guns more expensive, but you can still get any ammo you want at the normal cost and you can still reload. It is a useless law that can be skirted by criminals just by buying a new firing pin from another state, or just by using a revolver, no brass left at the crime scene, no numbers to match.

With this new "encoded" ammuntion, the bullet has to have a number on the bottom, and the shell casing has to have the same number engraved inside it. These numbers are registered in a database along with all your personal information when you buy the ammo. You are required to get rid of any "unencoded" ammo by a certain date. You are not allowed to be in possession of any "unencoded" ammo. Reloaders will be SOL. You will not be able to buy ammo from another state that doesn't have "encoded" ammo. If someone steals your ammo, then shoots someone, they will come looking for you, cause your name is tied to the bullet they just removed from some dead guys chest.

Write to your legislators now.

Call your legilators now.

E-mail your legislators now.
Since when did the firing pin start hitting the Brass, Thought it hit the primer. But then I've been wrong before.
Sorry for the mistake, it does indeed strike the imprint into the primer. But then again, isn't the primer made of brass?

CAs law is designed to match shell casings to guns. This only applies to semi-automatic handguns as revolvers don't leave brass at the scene of a crime. It is a stupid law.
 

just_a_car

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John Hardin wrote:
just_a_car wrote:
Heck, some don't even recognize the difference between an unfired cartridge and a "bullet" fired from a firearm, as evidenced by that Iraqi woman holding an unfired .223 cartridge and claiming it was fired by the Americans and hit her house....
Shooty... No Shooty... Savvy?
OMG! ROFL! I love that video!

If you all haven't seen this, check it out: http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/flv/afp_bullet_bite.swf

And here's the story he gave on it: http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/blog/link/like-a-suppository-only-stronger/
 

joeroket

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Decoligny wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
sv_libertarian wrote:
Didn't there used to be some sort of ammo registration requirments with one of the early GCA laws? Finally got tossed out because it was nearly impossible to enforce?
The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia passed this legislation even after being advise by their own people who investigated if it could be done, that the technology did not exist to do this at this time. So law makers don't carry about facts of even if it is feasible, just so they can claim they did something.
http://www.answers.com/topic/firearm-microstamping

Arnold signed legislation that is nowhere near as intrusive as this. All handguns manufactured or sold in CA after a certain date have to have a firing pin that microstamps the brass with the guns serial number. This makes the guns more expensive, but you can still get any ammo you want at the normal cost and you can still reload. It is a useless law that can be skirted by criminals just by buying a new firing pin from another state, or just by using a revolver, no brass left at the crime scene, no numbers to match.

With this new "encoded" ammuntion, the bullet has to have a number on the bottom, and the shell casing has to have the same number engraved inside it. These numbers are registered in a database along with all your personal information when you buy the ammo. You are required to get rid of any "unencoded" ammo by a certain date. You are not allowed to be in possession of any "unencoded" ammo. Reloaders will be SOL. You will not be able to buy ammo from another state that doesn't have "encoded" ammo. If someone steals your ammo, then shoots someone, they will come looking for you, cause your name is tied to the bullet they just removed from some dead guys chest.

Write to your legislators now.

Call your legilators now.

E-mail your legislators now.
Where do you see that we have to get rid of unencoded ammo by a certain date or that reloaders are SOL?
 

heresolong

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joeroket wrote:
Where do you see that we have to get rid of unencoded ammo by a certain date or that reloaders are SOL?
Beginning January 1, 2010, all pistol ammunition manufactured in
8 the state, imported into the state, or kept or offered for sale, sold,
9 or transferred in the state, must be coded ammunition as defined in RCW
10 9.41.010.

(19) "Pistol ammunition" means all ammunition principally for use
11 in pistols, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in
12 other firearms, including bullets used for reloading or handloading
13 pistol ammunition.

Emphasis mine! Clear enough for everyone?
 

Bear 45/70

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heresolong wrote:
joeroket wrote:
Where do you see that we have to get rid of unencoded ammo by a certain date or that reloaders are SOL?
Beginning January 1, 2010, all pistol ammunition manufactured in
8 the state, imported into the state, or kept or offered for sale, sold,
9 or transferred in the state, must be coded ammunition as defined in RCW
10 9.41.010.

(19) "Pistol ammunition" means all ammunition principally for use
11 in pistols, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in
12 other firearms, including bullets used for reloading or handloading
13 pistol ammunition.

Emphasis mine! Clear enough for everyone?
How would they know if I had a large supply of bullets from before that date and when I loaded the rounds?
 

joeroket

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heresolong wrote:
joeroket wrote:
Where do you see that we have to get rid of unencoded ammo by a certain date or that reloaders are SOL?
Beginning January 1, 2010, all pistol ammunition manufactured in
8 the state, imported into the state, or kept or offered for sale, sold,
9 or transferred in the state, must be coded ammunition as defined in RCW
10 9.41.010.

(19) "Pistol ammunition" means all ammunition principally for use
11 in pistols, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in
12 other firearms, including bullets used for reloading or handloading
13 pistol ammunition.

Emphasis mine! Clear enough for everyone?

Not really. It says "kept or offered for sale". Meaning either kept for sale or offered for sale. It does not mean "kept, or offered for sale." You are bolding single words not the entire portion that the word belongs to. If we all did that we could make RCW's say anything we wanted them to say.

I will concede the reloading portion as I did not read well enough.
 

Trigger Dr

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I want to see them micro stamp every #9 pellet from a 12 GA. round.:celebrate

For those of you who do not know, a #9 pellet is about this size. °


 

TechnoWeenie

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Trigger Dr wrote:
I want to see them micro stamp every #9 pellet from a 12 GA. round.:celebrate

For those of you who do not know, a #9 pellet is about this size.  °

 

PISTOL AMMUNITION
 

Trigger Dr

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TechnoWeenie wrote:
Trigger Dr wrote:
I want to see them micro stamp every #9 pellet from a 12 GA. round.:celebrate

For those of you who do not know, a #9 pellet is about this size. °



PISTOL AMMUNITION
Just in case you did not know the Taurus 45 / 410 shoots both 45 long colt and 410 shot shells. So does the TC encore and Contender in their handgun configuration.
 

just_a_car

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Trigger Dr wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote: Just in case you did not know the Taurus 45 / 410 shoots both 45 long colt and 410 shot shells. So does the TC encore and Contender in their handgun configuration.

Hell, there's a pistol out there for just about any caliber: .308Win, 7.62x39, .223 Rem , .458 SOCOM, .50 BMG, 12ga, etc...

By doing this to "Pistol ammunition", they're touching pretty much 90% of rifle ammo, too.


Edit: See what I mean?: http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2005/01/the_maadi_griff.html
http://www.tromix.com/Projects_o_Tromix.htm (the .458 Encore)
http://www.teelgun.com/shotgun pistol.htm
 

heresolong

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joeroket wrote:
Not really. It says "kept or offered for sale". Meaning either kept for sale or offered for sale. It does not mean "kept, or offered for sale." You are bolding single words not the entire portion that the word belongs to. If we all did that we could make RCW's say anything we wanted them to say.

I will concede the reloading portion as I did not read well enough.
Yeah, you're right. I should have caught that. I am the wording guy. On the other hand, just like drugs, if you have over a certain amount they assume that you have it for sale not for personal use. I could see them arguing that 10,000 rounds was far more than any one person could use and therefore you must be keeping it to sell on the black market.
 
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