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Thread: Well... that was interesting

  1. #1
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    Ken (puddin) beat me to Appelbee's by about 15 min. It was about 5 past 3 when I arrived. We greeted, walked inside, comiserated for a moment, then decided we'd wait outside for a little bit to see if anyone else showed.

    We sat outside on the bench (nice day actually...didn't even want a jacket) and 'shop-talked' for a while until Nathan showed up. Another round of greetings and went inside. The hostess asked if we wanted booth or bar. We chuckled.."booth".

    We were seated, and our drink orders weare taken. Nathan and I chose Black Butte , Puddin went for the lemonade. Our drinks arrived, we talked abit, then placed our food orders. A few minutes later, Grishnav showed and joined us, and ordered a Black Butte (and a cheeseburger?) for himself.

    Shortly thereafter a gentleman came up and actually SQUATTED next to the table. (Here we go). He asked Grishnav if he was a police officer. Upon discovering that eh wasn't he was informed that he couldn't have the gun in the building due to state law, and requested that he take it out to his car. We attempted to correct the mistinterpretation law, but he was having none of it. He claimed that they coulden't be present in an esablishemnt that served alchohol, and that he couldn't serve grishnav his Black Butte untill the gun was gone. He was informed that he could take the gun out to the car or leave....so we all stood up.

    The man fell all over himself saying "I'm not asking (the rest of) YOU to leave..."

    We corrected him. "Oh but you are.. you see... we're ALL carring side arms." He wasn't so accomodating after that. (my memory of details gets a bit fuzzy at this point) He claimed it was company policy. (we seemed to recall otherwise, but never mentioned it). Then he tried to claim that RCW 9.41.300 covered the ENTIRE building, not JUST the 'bar area'. We trid to correct him but he refused to listen, and even tried tog et us to follow him into the bar area to show use 'the law' ( a plain language summary of RCW9.41.300 with cite). We tried valiantly to inform him that we were prohibited from following him down the ramp, but again he wouldn't listen and kept telling us that if we wanted to read 'the law' the prohibited gus in teh building we would have to come down to him. We noticed there was another ramp to the siode that would allow us a vantage piont to read 'the law' that would allow us to remain outside of the restricted area.

    Upon reading the notice he was invoking I was able to determine that the language was QUITE CLEAR that RCW 9.41.300 (which it was citing) restriced carying in ONLY that PORTION of the premises that was off-limits to minors. I tried to bring up the point, but was shut down. It became clear at that point that he didn't care about the law or company policy....he was advancing a personal agenda. We paid for our (unfinished!!!) drinks and left. Thinking back on it we probbably shouldn't have as a matter of principle. On the upside, out food had JUST come up as we were leaving... so they had to eat that loss.

    As a fall back, there was a pizza joint acrioss the street that we decided to try. We left out cars in Applebee's parking lot and took the crosswalk. I noticed at least one guy in a truck waiting at the light do a double, triple, quadruple... hell he was just eyballing us the whole time!:P Lunch at the pizza joint was wholly uneventful. We were lucky in that they also carried Black Butte, so we ordered up again, and killed about an hour or so 'shop talking' carry laws, stories, and some interesting Terry/ID requirements.

    After the lunch, puddin had to take off, and the rest of us decided to rally across the freeway at Winco (the particular store or Nathan's encounter as a matter of fact) since I had some shopping to do. Grishnav and I went in together thinking that Nathan had beat us inside. after getting some apples, a 12 pack of Widmere, and kicked out because of my gun by the same guy Nathan had a run-in with, we found out that he'd been waiting at the front door for us thinking that we were behind him.

    The guy who booted us stated that it was company policy (funny how that's always the catch phrase they use), but even though I aquiesed to his request to leave, he flatly refused (quite gruffly) to provide me with a copy of said policy, and told me to leave. Oddly enough, he never said a word (or even gave a second look at) Grishnav, despite the fact that he had to walk AROUND him from his strong side in order to confront me. As it is i just left my cart (with a whopping two items in it) ane walked out.

    I guess it's time to do some research into the corporate policies of Winco and Applebee's.:?

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    I sent an inquiry to Applebee's asking if their policy mirrored state law or if they had additional stipulations.

    What was the name of the pizza place? I'd never eaten there before and it was good.




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    Sounds like we need a big meeting in Vancouver, bring plenty of pamphlets and go to that pizza place again. I would think staying out of Winco from now on OCing as they have made it plenty plain they don't welcome guns. Sounds like a good time was had, I really wish I could have been there.

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    We tried valiantly to inform him that we were prohibited from following him down the ramp, but again he wouldn't listen and kept telling us that if we wanted to read 'the law' the prohibited gus in teh building we would have to come down to him.
    You didn't have your pamphlets with you? For shame!

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    John Hardin wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    We tried valiantly to inform him that we were prohibited from following him down the ramp, but again he wouldn't listen and kept telling us that if we wanted to read 'the law' the prohibited gus in teh building we would have to come down to him.
    You didn't have your pamphlets with you? For shame!
    I did in fact have a copy with me, but I can tell you in no uncertain terms it wouldn't have made a difference. He didn't care about law or policy....."don't bother me with facts".....he just wanted the guns out.:?



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    John Hardin wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:Â*
    We tried valiantly to inform him that we were prohibited from following him down the ramp, but again he wouldn't listen and kept telling us that if we wanted to read 'the law' the prohibited gus in teh building we would have to come down to him.
    You didn't have your pamphlets with you? For shame!
    Yeah!! Shame on you. I don't go to the bathroom without them.

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    nathan wrote:
    I sent an inquiry to Applebee's asking if their policy mirrored state law or if they had additional stipulations.

    What was the name of the pizza place? I'd never eaten there before and it was good.


    Did you make it clear that the manager was requesting you to violate state law and was also misquoting state law?

    If I had a manager that was requesting a patron to violate a state law he would find himself on the un-employment line not receiving benefits.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joe has a very good point. I would speak with his regional manager. And make sure you tell the fool why you demand to speak with his boss.

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    It is not company policy. I can tell you that without a doubt. I have opened carried at more than a few Applebee's, especially the one in Silverdale, and the managers and or servers have never said a word to me. A few of them have even sat down and talked to me about the laws wanting to know more. I highly suggest you call the general manager of the store and voice your complaint and the obvious lack of knowledge on the manager's part. Just a side note and this is strictly my own opinion but I don't find it wise to drink and carry your gun. People are going to be scared of firearms as it is, but when alcohol is introduced, it definitely is going to make people jumpy. I would suggest concealing if you plan on drinking, but that is just my opinion.

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    G27 wrote:
    Just a side note and this is strictly my own opinion but I don't find it wise to drink and carry your gun. People are going to be scared of firearms as it is, but when alcohol is introduced, it definitely is going to make people jumpy. I would suggest concealing if you plan on drinking, but that is just my opinion.
    I do share the same opinion.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    My two cents and comments...

    The applebee's manager saying, "Oh, well than I guess I AM asking all of you to leave..." after everyone else stood up with me and showed their sidearms was just plain classic. It took so much not to laugh.

    I know Nathan caught the name of the manager at Applebee's. Jim Something???

    The Pizza place was:

    Bortolami's Pizzeria

    9901 NE 7th Ave # A100
    Vancouver, WA 98685
    (360) 574-2598
    Bortolami.com

    They hardly even seemed to notice and defiantely didn't care that we were all armed. Good for them!

    A few of the customers at the table opposite us were uneasy at first, but quickly realized that we weren't a threat and relaxed.

    All in all, today was a blast! Got to meet/hang out with some very intelligent like-minded people, sip on some good beer, have some good Pizza, and hopefully educate some people (even if it was the customers around us rather than the shop owners) that gun's aren't "bad." It's too bad we we're booted 2/3rds of the time, as I understand there have been better odds in the past... but hey, we're workin' on it! SW WA/NOPO represent!

    I just wish you guys could come down here and OC with loaded weapons. Freakin' Portland. Good coffee and nice people, but for some reason, inanimate objects give them the willies. Oh well. Maybe we could hook up in Gresham, Troutdale, or one of the other "Portland Metro" areas that don't ban firearms.

    I look forward to next time!

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    Off topic: I thought you were allowed to OC in Portland as long as you had a Oregon CWP?

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    G27 wrote:
    Off topic: I thought you were allowed to OC in Portland as long as you had a Oregon CWP?
    Correct. So for myself and Ken, no problem.

    However, for our friends just across the river in Vancouver, definately a problem.

    Oregon does issue non-resident permits to bordering states, but it is strictly discretionary (as opposed to shall-issue for residents), and most Sheriff's just use their discretion to say "No." It's tricky and tough to get a non-resident permit from Oregon.

    On the other hand, Washington shall-issues non-resident permits. As a result, us Oregon folk generally have Washington permits as well. (I do, and Ken does.)

    This makes it a lot easier for us to meet just across the river in Vancouver than it does to meet in Portland.

    Which is too bad, because I really like this state, and Portland's got a lot to offer.

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Ken (puddin) beat me to Appelbee's by about 15 min. It was about 5 past 3 when I arrived. We greeted, walked inside, comiserated for a moment, then decided we'd wait outside for a little bit to see if anyone else showed.

    We sat outside on the bench (nice day actually...didn't even want a jacket) and 'shop-talked' for a while until Nathan showed up. Another round of greetings and went inside. The hostess asked if we wanted booth or bar. We chuckled.."booth".

    We were seated, and our drink orders weare taken. Nathan and I chose Black Butte , Puddin went for the lemonade. Our drinks arrived, we talked abit, then placed our food orders. A few minutes later, Grishnav showed and joined us, and ordered a Black Butte (and a cheeseburger?) for himself.

    Shortly thereafter a gentleman came up and actually SQUATTED next to the table. (Here we go). He asked Grishnav if he was a police officer. Upon discovering that eh wasn't he was informed that he couldn't have the gun in the building due to state law, and requested that he take it out to his car. We attempted to correct the mistinterpretation law, but he was having none of it. He claimed that they coulden't be present in an esablishemnt that served alchohol, and that he couldn't serve grishnav his Black Butte untill the gun was gone. He was informed that he could take the gun out to the car or leave....so we all stood up.

    The man fell all over himself saying "I'm not asking (the rest of) YOU to leave..."

    We corrected him. "Oh but you are.. you see... we're ALL carring side arms." He wasn't so accomodating after that. (my memory of details gets a bit fuzzy at this point) He claimed it was company policy. (we seemed to recall otherwise, but never mentioned it). Then he tried to claim that RCW 9.41.300 covered the ENTIRE building, not JUST the 'bar area'. We trid to correct him but he refused to listen, and even tried tog et us to follow him into the bar area to show use 'the law' ( a plain language summary of RCW9.41.300 with cite). We tried valiantly to inform him that we were prohibited from following him down the ramp, but again he wouldn't listen and kept telling us that if we wanted to read 'the law' the prohibited gus in teh building we would have to come down to him. We noticed there was another ramp to the siode that would allow us a vantage piont to read 'the law' that would allow us to remain outside of the restricted area.

    Upon reading the notice he was invoking I was able to determine that the language was QUITE CLEAR that RCW 9.41.300 (which it was citing) restriced carying in ONLY that PORTION of the premises that was off-limits to minors. I tried to bring up the point, but was shut down. It became clear at that point that he didn't care about the law or company policy....he was advancing a personal agenda. We paid for our (unfinished!!!) drinks and left. Thinking back on it we probbably shouldn't have as a matter of principle. On the upside, out food had JUST come up as we were leaving... so they had to eat that loss.

    As a fall back, there was a pizza joint acrioss the street that we decided to try. We left out cars in Applebee's parking lot and took the crosswalk. I noticed at least one guy in a truck waiting at the light do a double, triple, quadruple... hell he was just eyballing us the whole time!:P Lunch at the pizza joint was wholly uneventful. We were lucky in that they also carried Black Butte, so we ordered up again, and killed about an hour or so 'shop talking' carry laws, stories, and some interesting Terry/ID requirements.

    After the lunch, puddin had to take off, and the rest of us decided to rally across the freeway at Winco (the particular store or Nathan's encounter as a matter of fact) since I had some shopping to do. Grishnav and I went in together thinking that Nathan had beat us inside. after getting some apples, a 12 pack of Widmere, and kicked out because of my gun by the same guy Nathan had a run-in with, we found out that he'd been waiting at the front door for us thinking that we were behind him.

    The guy who booted us stated that it was company policy (funny how that's always the catch phrase they use), but even though I aquiesed to his request to leave, he flatly refused (quite gruffly) to provide me with a copy of said policy, and told me to leave. Oddly enough, he never said a word (or even gave a second look at) Grishnav, despite the fact that he had to walk AROUND him from his strong side in order to confront me. As it is i just left my cart (with a whopping two items in it) ane walked out.

    I guess it's time to do some research into the corporate policies of Winco and Applebee's.:?
    I 've been to Applebee's twice in the last month and OCed. They have seen it. No Problems at all.

    TJ


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    I'm working on this letter to Applebee's. Haven't figured out exactly where to send it yet. It's not completely honest -- as this would be the first time I've openly carried into an Applebee's -- but does reflect the general knowledge of this board. My numbers for the amount of business I bring to Applebee's are accurate estimates -- it only takes a couple steaks a month to get to reasonable numbers annualy, and sadly, I do eat there that often (and bring friends there that often). Sigh.

    Appreciate any input. It's currently overly verbose and defininately needs to be cut down and refined to focus on the main points. (I'm willing to bet Lonnie is pretty damn good at this.) Might also be less negative towards the manager -- even if his behavior was pretty ridiculous and (at times) unprofessional. There's also a bit of hyperbole in there. :P

    Also some serious person consistency issues, verbage consistency issues, etc.

    Plus my firefox spell check doesn't appear to work on this board, so I'll have to run it through aspell or something before I send it.

    Anyway... thoughts?

    <Applebee's PR>
    <Applebee's Address>

    <My Name>
    <My Address>

    Dear <Applebee's>:

    I am writing in regards to an unfortunate incident which occured at your Hazel Dell Applebee's location (816 NE 98th Cir, Vancouver, WA) on Februrary 9, 2008, at approximately 3:45pm local time.

    I am a regular customer of several Applebee's locations in and around the Portland Metropolitan area in Oregon. I have become accustom to the friendly staff, welcoming atmosphere, and two or three excellent meals and desserts that I particularly enjoy consuming. As such, I spend $1,200-$2,000 annually dining at one of your locations in the Portland metro area. Further, I frequently encourage groups of 8-12 friends and business associates to meet at a local Applebee's after events, activities, meetings, etc. It is not unresable to estimate that my dining habits, as well as my encouragement of my friends and colleagues, brings between $20,000 and $35,000 worth of business annually to Applebees' locations in the Portland metro area.

    I am sorry to say that my extermely positive past experiences in the Oregon Applebee's locations did not extend to my recent visit to the Hazel Dell Applebee's location.

    I visited the Hazel Dell Applebee's location on Saturday, Februrary 9th, at around 3:30pm local time, to meet three friends for a late Saturday lunch. I was greeted by a friendly young woman, who showed me to the table where my friends had already arrived about half an hour earlier.

    I joined my friends, and my drink and food orders -- a Black Butte Porter and a Cheeseburger -- were promptly taken by a waiter. I also planned to order a diet soda. So far, so good.

    I chatted with my friends for approximately 5-10 minutes, when I was approched by Jim <something> -- whom identified himself as the general manager for the store (and specifically, not as an assistant or weekend manager) -- regarding an unconcealed firearm carried in a holster on my right hip. Jim informed me -- incorrectly -- that it was against Washington state law to carry a handgun while alcohol was being consumed. In fact, Washington state law on restricts handguns from being carried into areas designated by the State as "less than 21" age restricted areas, many (but not all) of which are "bar areas."

    We attempted to politely educate Jim about Washington's legal codes without creating a scene or a stir, but Jim wanted nothing of it, and simply demanded that I take my firearm out to my vehicle. I will not go into the variety of reasons that leaving a firearm unsecured in a vehicle is an extremely bad idea. Suffice it to say that I did not consider this an option. I politely informed Jim of my refusal to comply with this request. <is "that I could not comply with this request." better?> I asked Jim if he would like me to leave, and he indicated that this was what he wanted to resolve the situation.

    My three friends -- who were also carrying unconcealed pistols <guns? firearms?> -- stood up to leave with me. Jim indicated, at first, that he didn't want them to leave, stating, "You guys don't need to leave, just him." When my friends made it obvious that they were also carrying handguns, Jim's attitued changed quickly and he became downright hostile, stating, "well then I guess I'm telling you all to leave too." At this point, we were more than happy to comply. We just wanted the negative encouter with Jim to end.

    My friends had ordered a beer each and an apatizer. One of the beers had just arrived as we were being ordered <asked?> to leave, and my friend handn't so much as taken a sip. As we were working to exit the building, <-- now criminally tresspessed by Jim and no longer with any right to be there --????> Jim demanded we stay to pay for the food and beverages that had been served. We wouldn't have seen this request as unreasonable, had we been given the opportunity to actually consume the food or beverages. Unfortunately, the alcohol (obviously) couldn't be packaged to leave the premesis, and Jim never gave us the opportunity to take the food with us.

    Hoping to avoid a scene, we opted to go ahead and pay for the items we had not been given the opportunity to consume. Unfortunately, Jim wasn't finished with us yet. He demanded loudly that we follow him into the bar area to see the sign that allegedly prohibited firearms within the Applebee's resturant. As mentioned previously, as long as we are carrying firearms, we are not allowed to enter areas designated by the state as 21 or less age restricted areas.

    We indicated that we could not enter the area past the "age restricted" signs, as it would have been illegal, but Jim demanded that we do so anyway. We, of course, declined to comply with this request, and tried to politely inform Jim that we could not follow him into the bar area.

    Jim walked over to the sign anyway, and began gesturing wildly and yelling at us across the restaurant to "come over and read the sign".

    Hoping to de-escalate the rapidly deterorating situation, we found an alternate pathway that would get us close enough to the sign to be able to read it -- and hopefully allow Jim to "prove his point" -- without enterting the bar area of Applebee's and thus violating Washington state law. We did, after all, come to have a quite lunch and chit-chat, not to create a scene in your restaurant.

    Unfortunately, the sign indicated that only posted portions of an establishment were prohibited, which was cohesive with our interpretation of Washington state law, and not with Jims.

    Sadly, this did not help the situation. Fortunately for us, we had our recipts in hand at this point and money out to pay. Though Jim was becoming increasingly agitated, we were able to quickly pay and leave without the situation deteroriating much further. We sincerely hope that we didn't create too much of a problem for the other patrons of Applebee's, but we don't feel that there was anything more we could have done to de-escalate the situation and keep Jim calm.

    We moved our vehicles across the street to a Pizza Parlor. The staff was more than accomidating, and hardly seemed to notice our firearms -- much less show any concern about them. The food was excellent, and we only spent about 1/3 of what we would have spent ordering our food at Applebee's.

    I am extremely disappointed about this event at the Hazel Dell Applebee's. This is not what I have come to expect from Applebee's. In the past, I have carried my firearms -- both openly and concealed -- into many different Applebee's locations. If a staff member or manager noticed, more often than not, they were curious about what the laws surrounding firearms and carrying of firearms were, and many were even interested in obtaining their own after speaking with me. I have asked on several occassions about Applebee's policies pertaining to firearms, and have been told either that they weren't aware of any Applebee's policy banning firearms in Applebee's restaurant, or that the police mirrored state law on the question. I have never once been asked to leave an Applebee's restaurant for carrying a firearm, and I have never had such a decidedly negative encouter with any member of any Applebee's staff.

    As far as I'm aware, this incident arose not because our firearms were frightening or disturbing other patrons, or because we were behaving badly, or even because we were violating the law or Applebee's policy. It arose not because of anything in particular that we were doing wrong, but rather because a manager had what appeared to be a personal vendetta against firearms, and needed someone to take it out on. If any patrons of the establishment were distrubed, it was not by us, but rather by the manager that was screaming, yelling, and gesturing wildly from across the resturant at us.

    I am writing you today mostly to seek clarification. While it would be extremely disappointing to find out that Applebee's official position was to ban firearms from their restaurants -- my passion for firearms and my own personal safetly sadly outweighing my passion for your food -- I wouldn't dream of knowlingly violating your policies on the matter. Everybody has the right to set the rules on their privately owned property, and Applebee's is no exception. If Applebee's believes that the presence of firearms carried by responsible, licensed citizens would be a detriment to the wonderfully friendly and welcoming atmosphere of their resturants, I completely understand and accept that. I would much rather take my business to restaurants with more enlightened views and clientelle than risk creating a situation that your managers or staff felt they had to deal with.

    If, indeed, the manager was incorrect about the policy of Applebee's, than I would hope you would consider retraining for this particular manager so that responsible citizens such as myself and my friends may once again feel free to dine at your establishment. I also hope you would invite us back, as we currently feel that we are not welcome at your establishments so long as we choose to continue to carry our life saving tools -- be they firearms or the CPR masks we all have on our keychain.

    Because even though this situation has left an extremely bad taste in our mouths for the Applebee's brand, hey, we still really like the food, and we'd really like to come back and enjoy it.

    Thank you very much for your time and consideration in this matter. If you have any further questions or concerns about this incident, feel free to reach me at <phone> or <address>.

    Sincerely,

    <My Name>

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    Im kind of putting together a letter to "The Showbox" in my head right now after what happened there tonight. Ill make a thread about it. The 'ex military' bouncers are idiots there and also dont know the law about where you can and can't carry. I wasnt even carrying either.



    Marcus

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Shortly thereafter a gentleman came up and actually SQUATTED next to the table. (Here we go). He asked Grishnav if he was a police officer. Upon discovering that eh wasn't he was informed that he couldn't have the gun in the building due to state law, and requested that he take it out to his car. We attempted to correct the mistinterpretation law, but he was having none of it. He claimed that they coulden't be present in an esablishemnt that served alchohol, and that he couldn't serve grishnav his Black Butte untill the gun was gone. He was informed that he could take the gun out to the car or leave....so we all stood up.

    The man fell all over himself saying "I'm not asking (the rest of) YOU to leave..."

    We corrected him. "Oh but you are.. you see... we're ALL carring side arms." He wasn't so accomodating after that.
    Too bad you had not ordered food and drinks already - the only time I was ever asked to leave a restaurant, my party got up just as the food was arriving - about $125 worth - and our drinks were half-gone, inclusing 2 of the party not carrying but drinking alcohol - we never inquired about paying, and did not pay, and I had no intention to pay - an implied contract is entered into when customers enter a restaurant and absent conspicuous notice of a gun ban, I expect to be served, not kicked out when I order food!

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    Mike wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    Shortly thereafter a gentleman came up and actually SQUATTED next to the table. (Here we go). He asked Grishnav if he was a police officer. Upon discovering that eh wasn't he was informed that he couldn't have the gun in the building due to state law, and requested that he take it out to his car. We attempted to correct the mistinterpretation law, but he was having none of it. He claimed that they coulden't be present in an esablishemnt that served alchohol, and that he couldn't serve grishnav his Black Butte untill the gun was gone. He was informed that he could take the gun out to the car or leave....so we all stood up.

    The man fell all over himself saying "I'm not asking (the rest of) YOU to leave..."

    We corrected him. "Oh but you are.. you see... we're ALL carring side arms." He wasn't so accomodating after that.
    Too bad you had not ordered food and drinks already - the only time I was ever asked to leave a restaurant, my party got up just as the food was arriving - about $125 worth - and our drinks were half-gone, inclusing 2 of the party not carrying but drinking alcohol - we never inquired about paying, and did not pay, and I had no intention to pay - an implied contract is entered into when customers enter a restaurant and absent conspicuous notice of a gun ban, I expect to be served, not kicked out when I order food!
    We paid for our (unfinished!!!) drinks and left. Thinking back on it we probbably shouldn't have as a matter of principle. On the upside, our food had JUST come up as we were leaving... so they had to eat that loss.




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    grishnav wrote:
    I'm working on this letter to Applebee's. Haven't figured out exactly where to send it yet. It's not completely honest -- as this would be the first time I've openly carried into an Applebee's -- but does reflect the general knowledge of this board. My numbers for the amount of business I bring to Applebee's are accurate estimates -- it only takes a couple steaks a month to get to reasonable numbers annualy, and sadly, I do eat there that often (and bring friends there that often). Sigh.

    Appreciate any input. It's currently overly verbose and defininately needs to be cut down and refined to focus on the main points. (I'm willing to bet Lonnie is pretty damn good at this.) Might also be less negative towards the manager -- even if his behavior was pretty ridiculous and (at times) unprofessional. There's also a bit of hyperbole in there. :P

    Also some serious person consistency issues, verbage consistency issues, etc.

    Plus my firefox spell check doesn't appear to work on this board, so I'll have to run it through aspell or something before I send it.

    Anyway... thoughts?

    <Applebee's PR>
    <Applebee's Address>

    <My Name>
    <My Address>

    Dear <Applebee's>:

    I am writing in regards to an unfortunate incident which occured at your Hazel Dell Applebee's location (816 NE 98th Cir, Vancouver, WA) on Februrary 9, 2008, at approximately 3:45pm local time.

    I am a regular customer of several Applebee's locations in and around the Portland Metropolitan area in Oregon. I have become accustom to the friendly staff, welcoming atmosphere, and two or three excellent meals and desserts that I particularly enjoy consuming. As such, I spend $1,200-$2,000 annually dining at one of your locations in the Portland metro area. Further, I frequently encourage groups of 8-12 friends and business associates to meet at a local Applebee's after events, activities, meetings, etc. It is not unresable to estimate that my dining habits, as well as my encouragement of my friends and colleagues, brings between $20,000 and $35,000 worth of business annually to Applebees' locations in the Portland metro area.

    I am sorry to say that my extermely positive past experiences in the Oregon Applebee's locations did not extend to my recent visit to the Hazel Dell Applebee's location.

    I visited the Hazel Dell Applebee's location on Saturday, Februrary 9th, at around 3:30pm local time, to meet three friends for a late Saturday lunch. I was greeted by a friendly young woman, who showed me to the table where my friends had already arrived about half an hour earlier.

    I joined my friends, and my drink and food orders -- a Black Butte Porter and a Cheeseburger -- were promptly taken by a waiter. I also planned to order a diet soda. So far, so good.

    I chatted with my friends for approximately 5-10 minutes, when I was approched by Jim <something> -- whom identified himself as the general manager for the store (and specifically, not as an assistant or weekend manager) -- regarding an unconcealed firearm carried in a holster on my right hip. Jim informed me -- incorrectly -- that it was against Washington state law to carry a handgun while alcohol was being consumed. In fact, Washington state law on restricts handguns from being carried into areas designated by the State as "less than 21" age restricted areas, many (but not all) of which are "bar areas."

    We attempted to politely educate Jim about Washington's legal codes without creating a scene or a stir, but Jim wanted nothing of it, and simply demanded that I take my firearm out to my vehicle. I will not go into the variety of reasons that leaving a firearm unsecured in a vehicle is an extremely bad idea. Suffice it to say that I did not consider this an option. I politely informed Jim of my refusal to comply with this request. <is "that I could not comply with this request." better?> I asked Jim if he would like me to leave, and he indicated that this was what he wanted to resolve the situation.

    My three friends -- who were also carrying unconcealed pistols <guns? firearms?> -- stood up to leave with me. Jim indicated, at first, that he didn't want them to leave, stating, "You guys don't need to leave, just him." When my friends made it obvious that they were also carrying handguns, Jim's attitued changed quickly and he became downright hostile, stating, "well then I guess I'm telling you all to leave too." At this point, we were more than happy to comply. We just wanted the negative encouter with Jim to end.

    My friends had ordered a beer each and an apatizer. One of the beers had just arrived as we were being ordered <asked?> to leave, and my friend handn't so much as taken a sip. As we were working to exit the building, <-- now criminally tresspessed by Jim and no longer with any right to be there --????> Jim demanded we stay to pay for the food and beverages that had been served. We wouldn't have seen this request as unreasonable, had we been given the opportunity to actually consume the food or beverages. Unfortunately, the alcohol (obviously) couldn't be packaged to leave the premesis, and Jim never gave us the opportunity to take the food with us.

    Hoping to avoid a scene, we opted to go ahead and pay for the items we had not been given the opportunity to consume. Unfortunately, Jim wasn't finished with us yet. He demanded loudly that we follow him into the bar area to see the sign that allegedly prohibited firearms within the Applebee's resturant. As mentioned previously, as long as we are carrying firearms, we are not allowed to enter areas designated by the state as 21 or less age restricted areas.

    We indicated that we could not enter the area past the "age restricted" signs, as it would have been illegal, but Jim demanded that we do so anyway. We, of course, declined to comply with this request, and tried to politely inform Jim that we could not follow him into the bar area.

    Jim walked over to the sign anyway, and began gesturing wildly and yelling at us across the restaurant to "come over and read the sign".

    Hoping to de-escalate the rapidly deterorating situation, we found an alternate pathway that would get us close enough to the sign to be able to read it -- and hopefully allow Jim to "prove his point" -- without enterting the bar area of Applebee's and thus violating Washington state law. We did, after all, come to have a quite lunch and chit-chat, not to create a scene in your restaurant.

    Unfortunately, the sign indicated that only posted portions of an establishment were prohibited, which was cohesive with our interpretation of Washington state law, and not with Jims.

    Sadly, this did not help the situation. Fortunately for us, we had our recipts in hand at this point and money out to pay. Though Jim was becoming increasingly agitated, we were able to quickly pay and leave without the situation deteroriating much further. We sincerely hope that we didn't create too much of a problem for the other patrons of Applebee's, but we don't feel that there was anything more we could have done to de-escalate the situation and keep Jim calm.

    We moved our vehicles across the street to a Pizza Parlor. The staff was more than accomidating, and hardly seemed to notice our firearms -- much less show any concern about them. The food was excellent, and we only spent about 1/3 of what we would have spent ordering our food at Applebee's.

    I am extremely disappointed about this event at the Hazel Dell Applebee's. This is not what I have come to expect from Applebee's. In the past, I have carried my firearms -- both openly and concealed -- into many different Applebee's locations. If a staff member or manager noticed, more often than not, they were curious about what the laws surrounding firearms and carrying of firearms were, and many were even interested in obtaining their own after speaking with me. I have asked on several occassions about Applebee's policies pertaining to firearms, and have been told either that they weren't aware of any Applebee's policy banning firearms in Applebee's restaurant, or that the police mirrored state law on the question. I have never once been asked to leave an Applebee's restaurant for carrying a firearm, and I have never had such a decidedly negative encouter with any member of any Applebee's staff.

    As far as I'm aware, this incident arose not because our firearms were frightening or disturbing other patrons, or because we were behaving badly, or even because we were violating the law or Applebee's policy. It arose not because of anything in particular that we were doing wrong, but rather because a manager had what appeared to be a personal vendetta against firearms, and needed someone to take it out on. If any patrons of the establishment were distrubed, it was not by us, but rather by the manager that was screaming, yelling, and gesturing wildly from across the resturant at us.

    I am writing you today mostly to seek clarification. While it would be extremely disappointing to find out that Applebee's official position was to ban firearms from their restaurants -- my passion for firearms and my own personal safetly sadly outweighing my passion for your food -- I wouldn't dream of knowlingly violating your policies on the matter. Everybody has the right to set the rules on their privately owned property, and Applebee's is no exception. If Applebee's believes that the presence of firearms carried by responsible, licensed citizens would be a detriment to the wonderfully friendly and welcoming atmosphere of their resturants, I completely understand and accept that. I would much rather take my business to restaurants with more enlightened views and clientelle than risk creating a situation that your managers or staff felt they had to deal with.

    If, indeed, the manager was incorrect about the policy of Applebee's, than I would hope you would consider retraining for this particular manager so that responsible citizens such as myself and my friends may once again feel free to dine at your establishment. I also hope you would invite us back, as we currently feel that we are not welcome at your establishments so long as we choose to continue to carry our life saving tools -- be they firearms or the CPR masks we all have on our keychain.

    Because even though this situation has left an extremely bad taste in our mouths for the Applebee's brand, hey, we still really like the food, and we'd really like to come back and enjoy it.

    Thank you very much for your time and consideration in this matter. If you have any further questions or concerns about this incident, feel free to reach me at <phone> or <address>.

    Sincerely,

    <My Name>
    You need to spell check (a lot of errors) and proof read carefully (the wrong word used in several places). I would drop any reference to alcohol and just say you ordered refreshments.

  20. #20
    State Researcher
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    The letter is entirely too long, IMO.
    Short and sweet works. There is a lot of commentary that can be left out and still articulate the facts.



  21. #21
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    I strongly second PA Patriot's recommendation. You letter will get a lot more attention if it's shorter.

  22. #22
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    While your letter was wrong it did give a very vivid account of what went on. Shorten it though. I've beengoing toApplebee's long enough to know that they would do anything to bend over for their customers and you will most likely get an apology letter and a gift certificate to come back and visit their restaurant.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Add me to the group who believes it’s WAY too long. I don’t see anywhere in your letter where you mention the outrage of being publicly humiliated by a manager with an obvious addenda. Had you been behaving badly and disturbing the other customers, the manager had every duty to remove you. You were, however, a peaceful and law abiding customer.

  24. #24
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    What Mainsail said On the topic of Oregon CPL's I wonder if it would help that I was born in Grants Pass and have family (that I haven't been in touch with for years) in trying to get an Oregon CPL from Josephine County...

  25. #25
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    What would you guys cut out?

    edit: I'm the type that tends to start with a REALLY long letter and hack irrevelant stuff out as I refine it. I'm also the type to write several very different drafts before settling on the one I like.

    So please... feel free to hack, slash, and squish on it 'till it's effectiveness is maximized.

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