Well... that was interesting

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I strongly second PA Patriot's recommendation. You letter will get a lot more attention if it's shorter.

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While your letter was wrong it did give a very vivid account of what went on. Shorten it though. I've beengoing toApplebee's long enough to know that they would do anything to bend over for their customers and you will most likely get an apology letter and a gift certificate to come back and visit their restaurant.

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Add me to the group who believes it’s WAY too long. I don’t see anywhere in your letter where you mention the outrage of being publicly humiliated by a manager with an obvious addenda. Had you been behaving badly and disturbing the other customers, the manager had every duty to remove you. You were, however, a peaceful and law abiding customer.

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What Mainsail said On the topic of Oregon CPL's I wonder if it would help that I was born in Grants Pass and have family (that I haven't been in touch with for years) in trying to get an Oregon CPL from Josephine County...

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What would you guys cut out?

edit: I'm the type that tends to start with a REALLY long letter and hack irrevelant stuff out as I refine it. I'm also the type to write several very different drafts before settling on the one I like.

So please... feel free to hack, slash, and squish on it 'till it's effectiveness is maximized.

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<Applebee's PR>
<Applebee's Address>

<My Name>
<My Address>

Dear <Applebee's>:

I am writing in regards to an unfortunate incident which occured at your Hazel Dell Applebee's location (816 NE 98th Cir, Vancouver, WA) on Februrary 9, 2008, at approximately 3:45pm local time.

I am a regular customer of several Applebee's locations in and around the Portland Metropolitan area in Oregon. I have become accustom to the friendly staff, welcoming atmosphere, and two or three excellent meals and desserts that I particularly enjoy consuming. As such, I spend $1,200-$2,000 annually dining at one of your locations in the Portland metro area. Further, I frequently encourage groups of 8-12 friends and business associates to meet at a local Applebee's after events, activities, meetings, etc.

I am sorry to say that my extermely positive past experiences in the Oregon Applebee's locations did not extend to my recent visit to the Hazel Dell Applebee's location.

I met three friends for a late Saturday lunch. I chatted with my friends for approximately 5-10 minutes, when I was approched by Jim, who identified himself as the general manager for the store regarding an unconcealed firearm carried in a holster on my right hip. Jim informed me -- incorrectly -- that it was against Washington state law to carry a handgun while alcohol was being consumed. In fact, Washington state law on restricts handguns from being carried into areas designated by the State as "less than 21" age restricted areas, many (but not all) of which are "bar areas."

We attempted to politely educate Jim about Washington's legal codes without creating a scene or a stir, but Jim wanted nothing of it, and simply demanded that I take my firearm out to my vehicle. I politely informed Jim that I could not comply with this request. I asked Jim if he would like me to leave, and he indicated that this was what he wanted to resolve the situation.

My three friends -- who were also carrying unconcealed pistols -- stood up to leave with me. Jim indicated, at first, that he didn't want them to leave, stating, "You guys don't need to leave, just him." When my friends made it obvious that they were also carrying handguns, Jim's attitued changed quickly and he became downright hostile, stating, "well then I guess I'm telling you all to leave too." At this point, we were more than happy to comply. We just wanted the negative encouter with Jim to end.

As we were working to exit the building, Jim demanded we stay to pay for the food and beverages that had been served, though we were leaving when the food arrived and had no opportunity to eat. Hoping to avoid a scene, we opted to go ahead and pay.

Unfortunately, Jim wasn't finished with us yet. He demanded loudly that we follow him into the bar area to see the sign that allegedly prohibited firearms within the Applebee's resturant. Jim walked over to the sign, and began gesturing wildly and yelling at us across the restaurant to "come over and read the sign". The sign indicated that only posted portions of an establishment were prohibited, which was consistent with our interpretation of Washington state law, and not with Jim's. Though Jim was becoming increasingly agitated, we were able to quickly pay and leave without the situation deteroriating much further.

As far as I'm aware, this incident arose not because our firearms were frightening or disturbing other patrons, or because we were behaving badly, or even because we were violating the law or Applebee's policy.

I am writing you today mostly to seek clarification. I would much rather take my business to restaurants with more enlightened views and clientele than risk creating a situation that your managers or staff felt they had to deal with. If, indeed, the manager was incorrect about the policy of Applebee's, than I would hope you would consider retraining for this particular manager so that responsible citizens such as myself and my friends may once again feel free to dine at your establishment; we still like the food, and we'd really like to come back and enjoy it.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration in this matter. If you have any further questions or concerns about this incident, feel free to reach me at <phone> or <address>.

Sincerely,

<My Name>

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Sage's letter is perfect. Very concise and full of facts.

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I really think it needs to include the fact that the manager was requesting them to break the law in order to (erroneously) show them that they had broken the law.

It really drives home the point that he proved himself a complete idiot, and was being a total ass.

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Well.... I fired of my own version borrowed heavily from Grishnav's draft adn my posted accoun.. It may be a tad long, but I tried to avoid hyperbole as much as possible:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing in regards to an unfortunate incident which occurred at your Hazel Dell Applebee's location (816 NE 98th Cir, Vancouver, WA) on February 9, 2008, at approximately 3:45pm local time.

I am a frequent customer of Applebee's in and around the Portland/Vancouver area. In almost every case I have enjoyed excellent and friendly service as well as exceptional quality food and drinks.I am sorry to report that my extremely positive past experiences in the area Applebee's locations did not extend to my recent visit to the Hazel Dell Applebee's on 9, Feb.

I had arranged to meet three friends at around 3PM. At around 3:15 three of us decided we had waited long enough for the fourth and decided to go on inside.We were greeted warmly, seated, and our drink orders were taken. Two of us Ordered Black Butte Porter. Our third chose lemonade.Our drinks arrived, we talked a bit, then placed our food orders. A few minute later our fourth arrived, was directed to our table and ordered a Black Butte and some food for himself.

At this point a gentleman who identified himself as the general manager of the store approached our table and confronted our late arriver asking him if he was a police officer. Upon discovering that he wasn't, he was informed that he couldn't have the gun in the building due to state law, and requested that he take it out to his car. We attempted to correct the misinterpretation of law, but he was having none of it. He claimed that a sidearm couldn't be present in an establishment that served alcohol, and that he couldn't serve his Black Butte until the sidearm was gone. He was informed that he could take the gun out to the car or leave....so we all stood up.

The man fell all over himself saying "I'm not asking (the rest of) YOU to leave..."

We corrected him. "Oh but you are.. you see... we're ALL carrying side arms." He wasn't so accommodating after that. He claimed it was company policy. Then he tried to claim that RCW 9.41.300 covered the ENTIRE building, not JUST the 'bar area'. We tried to correct him but he refused to listen, and even tried to get us to follow him into the bar area (a clearly direct violation of the law) to show us 'the law' ( a plain language summary of RCW 9.41.300 with cite). We tried valiantly to inform him that we were prohibited from following him down the ramp, but again he wouldn't listen, became rather agitated (bordering on, yet just shy of belligerence) and kept telling us that if we wanted to read 'the law' that prohibited sidearms in the building we would have to come down to him. We noticed there was another ramp to the side that would allow us a vantage point to read 'the law', yet allow us to remain outside of the restricted area.

Upon reading the notice he was invoking I was able to determine that the language was QUITE CLEAR that RCW 9.41.300 (which it was citing) restricted carrying in ONLY that PORTION of the premises that was off-limits to minors. I tried to bring up the point, but was shut down. It became clear at that point that he didn't care about the law or company policy....he was advancing a personal agenda... We paid for our (unfinished!!!) drinks and left. I am particularly perturbed that we should be charged for beverages that we were not allowed to consume. I find it to be extremely poor form.

This is not what I have come to expect from Applebee's. In the past, I have carried my sidearm -- both openly and concealed -- into many different Applebee's locations. If a staff member or manager noticed, more often than not, they were curious about what the laws surrounding firearms and carrying of firearms were, and many were even interested in obtaining their own after speaking with me. I have asked on several occasions about Applebee's policies pertaining to firearms, and have been told either that they weren't aware of any Applebee's policy banning firearms in Applebee's restaurant, or that the corporate policy mirrored the law of the State in question. I have never once been asked to leave an Applebee's restaurant for carrying a sidearm, and I have never had such a decidedly negative encounter with any member of any Applebee's staff.

As far as I'm aware, this incident arose not because our firearms were frightening or disturbing other patrons, nor because we were behaving badly, or even because we were violating the law or Applebee's policy. It arose not because of anything in particular that we were doing wrong, but rather because a manager apparently had a personal agenda against firearms. If any patrons of the establishment were disturbed, I would dare say it was not by us, but rather by the rather animated behavior of the manage when challenged on the legality of his actions in asking us to leave.

I am writing primarily to seek clarification. While it would be extremely disappointing to find out that Applebee's official corporate policy is to ban sidearms from their restaurants -- my passion for my own personal safety sadly outweighs my appreciation of your food and service. I wouldn't dream of knowingly violating your policies on the matter. I firmly believe that everybody has the right to set the rules on their privately owned property, and Applebee's is no exception. If Applebee's believes that the presence of sidearms carried by responsible, licensed citizens would be a detriment to the wonderfully friendly and welcoming atmosphere of their restaurants,I can accept that, even if I don't agree. I would much rather take my business to restaurants with more enlightened views and clientèle than risk creating a situation that your managers or staff felt they had to deal with.

If, indeed, the manager was incorrect about the policy of Applebee's, than I would hope you would consider retraining for this particular manager so that responsible citizens such as myself and my friends may once again feel free to dine at your establishment. I also hope you would invite us back, as we currently feel that we are not welcome at your establishments so long as we choose to continue to carry our life saving tools -- be they firearms or the CPR masks we all have on our key chains.

In addition, I would appreciate some form of written confirmation (e-mail is adequate) of your corporate policy regarding sidearms even if it is not favorable to my position, so that I may have, for my own reference, a true copy of your policy for the future.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration in this matter. If you have any further questions or concerns about this incident, feel free to reach me at E-mail: Blahblahblah@blah.com.

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These are very good letters. One of you might want to include a fyi copy of the training directive that includes the part about someone going into a restaurant that serves liquor for dinner and it not being illegal.

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Just read the OP. Funny story!

I have yet to get kicked out of a restaurant, although I'm sure it's because I haven't been spotted by the right person in the right place, yet. I've been to some places that I later heard were anti-gun.

I wish I could've seen the guy's face when he saw you all stand up. I would've told him that if you're asking any of my friends to leave you're asking me to leave, too, gun or no gun.

I've never been to the Northwest; Montana's the closest I've gotten. I'd love to stop by up there some day. It's a big country and there're so many places to explore!

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Tomahawk wrote:

I've never been to the Northwest; Montana's the closest I've gotten. I'd love to stop by up there some day. It's a big country and there're so many places to explore!

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Tomahawk, let us know when you're coming out and we'll make sure you receive a warm welcome from all the OCDO'ers out here!

As for Applebee's, I've OC'd many, many times at the one in Lynnwood and a couple times at the one in Factoria without any issue what-so-ever. I'm not sure if anyone on the staff ever noticed, but I wasn't making a big deal out of it either. I'm pretty sure some patrons noticed once or twice, but they just looked a few times and talked quietly to each other... nothing was brought to the attention of the staff.

Plus, none of the Applebee's I've gone to have had any signage to indicate that they prohibit firearms; I know, I actually look intently for them. I have a feeling that this manager has a personal agenda and will almost certainly be reprimanded if not fired.

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If something like this happens, ask the manager for his business card and have him write down the name and phone number of his district manager. Step outside (no need for a trespass call) and call the DM right then. The DM may want to speak to the manager right away (in the middle of your call, so stay at the restaurant), or may call him on the store phone. Having the DM chew out the store manager right then is the best and quickest resolution you can hope for, and this is the way to get it.

Be calm, though, yelling at the DM won't help.

If the DM does give you static, politely ask him for the phone number and address of the home office. Then write a letter.

edited to add:

In fact, if the manager is just attempting to pass off a personal bias as company policy, the simple act of asking for his business card and the contact information for his DM may cause him to back down. Who wants their boss yelling at them for harrassing a customer?

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Excellent advice, John.

By the way, I may be going to Applebee's in Lynnwood tomorrow evening or Thursday evening. I may ask them if they know of any company policy prohibiting patrons from carrying weapons.

I know, I know... don't poke the tiger. But I'd like to know if the manager in the OP is a fluke or maybe they just don't post signage. I hope they don't prohibit weapons (at least legal ones) as I love their all-you-can-eat riblet dinner on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

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John Hardin wrote:

If something like this happens, ask the manager for his business card and have him write down the name and phone number of his district manager. Step outside (no need for a trespass call) and call the DM right then. The DM may want to speak to the manager right away (in the middle of your call, so stay at the restaurant), or may call him on the store phone. Having the DM chew out the store manager right then is the best and quickest resolution you can hope for, and this is the way to get it.

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Intersting you should mention that, as it happens that we did as for a business card (refused) and name of his superior (he didn't have one except for "corporate").

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Sage of Seattle wrote:

<Applebee's PR>
<Applebee's Address>

<My Name>
<My Address>

blah blah blah

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I really, really like this draft. I might just roll with it.

Anyone figure out where it should be sent?

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irfner wrote:

These are very good letters. One of you might want to include a fyi copy of the training directive that includes the part about someone going into a restaurant that serves liquor for dinner and it not being illegal.

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I'll try to hunt it down and send it with mine as an attachment.

If you happen to have it (or a link to it) handy, that would save me some time.

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grishnav wrote:

John Hardin wrote:

If something like this happens, ask the manager for his business card and have him write down the name and phone number of his district manager. Step outside (no need for a trespass call) and call the DM right then. The DM may want to speak to the manager right away (in the middle of your call, so stay at the restaurant), or may call him on the store phone. Having the DM chew out the store manager right then is the best and quickest resolution you can hope for, and this is the way to get it.

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Intersting you should mention that, as it happens that we did as for a business card (refused) and name of his superior (he didn't have one except for "corporate").

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Include those facts in any complaint you send. It looks like this manager is digging himself a pretty deep hole, if Applebees corporate has any honest policy of customer service.

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John Hardin wrote:

grishnav wrote:

John Hardin wrote:

If something like this happens, ask the manager for his business card and have him write down the name and phone number of his district manager. Step outside (no need for a trespass call) and call the DM right then. The DM may want to speak to the manager right away (in the middle of your call, so stay at the restaurant), or may call him on the store phone. Having the DM chew out the store manager right then is the best and quickest resolution you can hope for, and this is the way to get it.

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Intersting you should mention that, as it happens that we did as for a business card (refused) and name of his superior (he didn't have one except for "corporate").

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Include those facts in any complaint you send. It looks like this manager is digging himself a pretty deep hole, if Applebees corporate has any honest policy of customer service.

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Agreed. If this manager is unwilling to provide a business card or a way to contact superiors, he needs to be fired. Honestly, I think that's the only recourse Applebee's has with this guy now, due to his outright stupidity and horrific customer service; not only to your group, but to everyone in the restaurant that had to deal with his 'show'.

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grishnav wrote:

irfner wrote:

These are very good letters. One of you might want to include a fyi copy of the training directive that includes the part about someone going into a restaurant that serves liquor for dinner and it not being illegal.

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I'll try to hunt it down and send it with mine as an attachment.

If you happen to have it (or a link to it) handy, that would save me some time.

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http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/open_carry_training_bulletins_washington.pdf