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Thread: The Showbox

  1. #1
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    So tonight was a stupid night. Some of my friends are in a band and they were playing a show at The Showbox and I wanted to go. I planned on going into the bar (all my friends parents would be hanging out in there) so I locked my gun in my truck and went to the main entrance. I was standing outside smoking as I scanned the building for signs, I noticed the normal window sign on the bar door about firearms but no other signs. I decided to ask the bouncer working the door (no names from anyone) what the firearms policy was in the building for ***** and giggles. I was told its illegal to carry anywhere inside because there was alcohol being served, and I told him that was incorrect its only in areas off-limits to those under 21. "No you're wrong, try going to Claim Jumpers and asking the manager if you can carry in the resturaunt, there gonna tell you no take your gun and kick your ass out." I think this is where he asked me if I was carrying a gun right now, I told him no and let him see my empty holster. "I was in the military for 5 years carrying I think I would know the law, whatya carry a 9mm or some little .22". I kind of shut him up when I said no a 1911. I walked away to finish my conversation with friends and decide whether or not I even wanted to stay. I saw the guy on his mic "calling for backup" basically and describing me. It went from 2 people to 5 people outside staring my down. I walked over and asked if there was a problem. Some woman said "you cant come up here and ask about the firearms policy, flash an empty holster and think there wont be a problem, your dealing with a bunch of ex military people here" Not a whole lot came out of this conversation as she also didnt know what she was talking about. I waited for a bit and decided I would walk in. I was headed in the door when bouncer #1 stepped in front of me and told me he had to pat me down (No one else was being patted down) I stood there with my legs together, didnt lift my arms. He felt my sides, patted my legs down and thats about it. I walked in and went to the bar, had a beer watched some bands play told my friends parents what happened etc. Went out to have another smoke and when I walked back in I felt like I should tell the guy he wasnt that great at patting me down, and that next time he should feel the small of someones back and under there arms too. He wouldnt even look at me, I know i pissed him off pretty good right there. I was now standing around drinking water on the main floor hanging out with my brother and friends when I got a tap on the shoulder. I turned to see the woman bouncer/security person right behind me. She informed me that I needed to appolagize to the door guy, and that I shouldnt **** with the bouncers at a place I was in, and that the bouncer severely wants to kick me out. And that I also shouldnt give pat down tips. I told her I wouldnt appologize, I had done nothing wrong. "You cant come in here talking about guns with all the stuff thats being going on at clubs around here". Another threat of being kicked out and I said "Im sorry for causing a problem but im not gonna apologize to the guy, I dont know whats been going on around here im just trying to watch my friends play". When she walked away and I turned to face the stage again I realized I was surrounded by 3 of the other bouncers all standing about 15ft away observing and most likely hoping to "bounce me out". There was even a cop at the door when I left and they were pointing me out to him. I just walked away and wasnt followed, maybe the cop informed them that they were wrong who knows he didnt try and follow me.

    Im gonna write a letter to whoever I have to about the incident, and include the RCW about the law and even a training bulletin that had the resturaunt/bar scenario in it to make it easier for them to understand. Im also going to point out how a criminal wouldnt ask if it was legal, he would just break the law. Hopefully they can all get there heads around that idea. Anything else I should include? I dont wanna take this very far I really just want someone to tell the bouncers/security that they were misinformed of the law and hopefully get an apology. Thoughts?



    Marcus



    Off the subject I bought new holster yesterday and today was my first full day of OC besides at the theater. Coffee girl saw it when I was in a nearby subway, asked if I was a cop. She was on our side about people needing guns. And all of my friends at the 164th Jiffy Lube approve (all the employees/managers are friends and most are gun owners/hunters) so I would put them on list of places to go to.

  2. #2
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    I am not sure why you asked in the first place. I carry everywhere. I expect people to respect my rights as a citizen of Washington state. I don't need their opinion or "expertise". I know the law and what it's constraints are. If I am breaking their "company" policy, then I will gladly leave. Just like you should have. Don't ask, don't tell.

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    Was this an all-ages show?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Like I said in my original post I asked for ***** and giggles and the bouncer made it an issue, and talked down to me. And yes it was an all ages show, the bar is a seperate door that you walk straight into from outside, or when you go onto the main floor its left of the stage also seperate. I should have walked to my truck and grabbed a gun rights pamphlet for them to take a look at but wasnt interested in making it a bigger issue than they had already made it.



    Marcus

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    Well then he was definitely wrong on the law, but they do prohibit weapons as listed from their site. I don't agree with the way they treated, it was obvious that you were being harassed over asking a simple question.

    What CAN'T I bring into the venue?
    * Backpacks/Large Bags (no larger than 16"x16"x 8")
    * Food or Beverages
    * Audio and Video Recorders (except for very specific shows)
    * Professional cameras (except for very specific shows)
    * Weapons, chains, pocket knives and Leatherman-style or Swiss Army-style tools, spikes, spiked or studded belts, or objects security think could possibly be used as a weapon.
    ((Please use your better judgement.))

    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I have been tempted on many occasions to ask local LEO (for ***** and giggles also) when I am out at coffee shops or wherever what they think about open carry, but I am always hesitant because I have a strong feeling that they won't know, or will give me their opinion and question me and that a simple question could turn into awkward situation...

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    joeroket wrote:
    ((Please use your better judgement.))
    The operative word(s)---
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    zakst1 wrote:
    a simple question could turn into awkward situation...
    At this point you simply say, "Ok, Thank you for your input" and walk away.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    zakst1 wrote:
    a simple question could turn into awkward situation...
    At this point you simply say, "Ok, Thank you for your input" and walk away.
    And be glad that their opinion is not the law. As to regards to open carrying in Kitsap County the Kitsap County Sheriff's office seems to be throughly versed that is legal and the lady that issues CWP will even tell you it is legal as long as you follow the rules on places you can and cannot carry in to begin with.

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    I was just at the showbox a week ago. I went to see Louis XIV and Hot Hot Heat with my fiance. I carried my P226 in with no problems. I'm sure they didn't approve, but they weren't doing pat downs, and it wasn't illegal, so don't ask, don't tell. I pack into whatever all ages shows I go to. I'm not leaving it in the car to be stolenin that neighborhood. And I'm not going unarmed in that neighborhood either, especially when she wants to get autographs after the show, which means standing around on 1st ave at midnight for an hour.

    The showbox bouncers (like most bouncers) have a pretty serious wanna-be-jack-bauer complex, and you're asking for trouble by asserting the fact that they are not Jack Bauerly. They're worse than cops.




    ETA: BTW, could you just not poke the tiger with a stick here? They can not allow firearms all they want, and the only way they're going to enforce it is by doing pat downs. Please kindly **** about this, or they will start doing pat downs. Currently they don't, and I'd like to keep it that way. So please, for the love of God and all that is holy, don't write letters or contact them at all. If I have to leave my gun unprotected in the car next time I go to see a show because they all of a sudden feel the need to do pat-downs, I'm going to be pretty pissed with you.

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    So much for boycotting anti-gun establishments on principle.

    Lie with dogs and get fleas. 'Hang' with unruly children or hang separately.

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    Right, Doug. If you can think of one place that has a stage AND allows firearms, you let me know, and I'll only do business with them. But since there is not a single place in Seattle that a band can play that allows firearms (per their policies, not talking about laws), I'm going to have to ask you to kindly shut it.

    Maybe I should enjoy my favorite bands from my home via YouTube. It's almost the same as being there, right?

    So again, either name ONE place that I cansee a band in Seattle, that allows firearms, as an alternative. Or ****. Either way.

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    expvideo wrote:
    Right, Doug. If you can think of one place that has a stage AND allows firearms, you let me know, and I'll only do business with them. But since there is not a single place in Seattle that a band can play that allows firearms (per their policies, not talking about laws), I'm going to have to ask you to kindly shut it.

    Maybe I should enjoy my favorite bands from my home via YouTube. It's almost the same as being there, right?

    So again, either name ONE place that I cansee a band in Seattle, that allows firearms, as an alternative. Or ****. Either way.
    It's their private property - I don't mean to argue with you at all bud, but I would expect someone to respect my wishes on my property, or just leave - I suspect you would as well.

    If you don't like it, start your own venue that does allow it.

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    ScorpioMk wrote: I felt like I should tell the guy he wasnt that great at patting me down, and that next time he should feel the small of someones back and under there arms too.
    If you did, the next time you might get the "oyster squeeze" just for good measure.


    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    There prolly wont be a next time unless my friends pay for my ticket. If I do go back they'll recognize me if the same guy/gal are there, and I'm just gonna be an ass if they start it up with me. If they dont recognize me I wont say anything. I will have a pamphlet with me if I go backin casethey recognize me tho.



    Marcus

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    thewise1 wrote:
    If you don't like it, start your own venue that does allow it.
    Wow. What a helpful suggestion.

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    expvideo wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    If you don't like it, start your own venue that does allow it.
    Wow. What a helpful suggestion.
    I know I'd go if you didn't jump on the ticketmaster bandwagon

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    Interesting reading hear, total lack of common scence and or good judgement. Of the poster of this thread. JMHO, The bouncer-ers might not have known nore understood the law about OC. But they shures the hell know about private property. They are hired to protect that venue. So you are saying that them doing thier job makes them bad or ignorant?

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    .45ballers wrote:
    Interesting reading hear, total lack of common scence and or good judgement. Of the poster of this thread. JMHO, The bouncer-ers might not have known nore understood the law about OC. But they shures the hell know about private property. They are hired to protect that venue. So you are saying that them doing thier job makes them bad or ignorant?
    Apparently they don't know about private property or they could have easily just said "Sorry, our policy is "no firearms". If you want to stay you have to leave it outside." Instead, based on the report, they copped an attitude and made stupid, ignorant, and wrong comments on state law. Then they treated him like dirt. Now maybe his report isn't totally accurate but based on what he has told us, they were being ignorant jerks.



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    Expvideo, What happened to the attitude you used to have about private property owners and respecting thier rights? It seems like you made a complete turnaround in this thread from what you have said before. Bear with me as I am not trying to be an a$$ but merely wondering if something happened recently that made you change your mind.

    I don't think we should be looking for ways to deny someone their propertyrights. If the mall doesn't want me carrying a gun, I will respect their wishes and shop elsewhere. It's not the law, but it is their property, and they have a right to set certain guidelines of conduct.

    I thought we were pro-rights here? But rather, we are trying to find some "loophole" in the law to deny the mall theirproperty rights.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    heresolong wrote:
    .45ballers wrote:
    Interesting reading hear, total lack of common scence and or good judgement. Of the poster of this thread. JMHO, The bouncer-ers might not have known nore understood the law about OC. But they shures the hell know about private property. They are hired to protect that venue. So you are saying that them doing thier job makes them bad or ignorant?
    Apparently they don't know about private property or they could have easily just said "Sorry, our policy is "no firearms". If you want to stay you have to leave it outside." Instead, based on the report, they copped an attitude and made stupid, ignorant, and wrong comments on state law. Then they treated him like dirt. Now maybe his report isn't totally accurate but based on what he has told us, they were being ignorant jerks.

    Excelent point, Im not defending the bounce-ers. Nor Am I defending the poster. Obviously buttons where pushed, and by the posters account. He pushed thier buttons for his own, "***** and giggles". If they dont know the law, and they are hired to protect the venue. Makes the stupid, or jerks? I doubt it, Hopefully they understand that OC is legal in the state of WA as of a result of the poster. To that I say good job. But the way it was all carried out was stupid. Simple education and information is all that is needed.

    Do you allow open carry here in this private venue? Ok then I will leave and take my buisness elswhere.




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    .45ballers wrote:
    heresolong wrote:
    .45ballers wrote:
    Interesting reading hear, total lack of common scence and or good judgement. Of the poster of this thread. JMHO, The bouncer-ers might not have known nore understood the law about OC. But they shures the hell know about private property. They are hired to protect that venue. So you are saying that them doing thier job makes them bad or ignorant?
    Apparently they don't know about private property or they could have easily just said "Sorry, our policy is "no firearms". If you want to stay you have to leave it outside." Instead, based on the report, they copped an attitude and made stupid, ignorant, and wrong comments on state law. Then they treated him like dirt. Now maybe his report isn't totally accurate but based on what he has told us, they were being ignorant jerks.

    Excelent point, Im not defending the bounce-ers. Nor Am I defending the poster. Obviously buttons where pushed, and by the posters account. He pushed thier buttons for his own, "***** and giggles". If they dont know the law, and they are hired to protect the venue. Makes the stupid, or jerks? I doubt it, Hopefully they understand that OC is legal in the state of WA as of a result of the poster. To that I say good job. But the way it was all carried out was stupid. Simple education and information is all that is needed.

    Do you allow open carry here in this private venue? Ok then I will leave and take my buisness elswhere.




    I really wasnt trying to cause problems, and he seemed very cool at first when I asked, but it was just very serious sarcasm on his part that wasnt said sarcastically. I walked away after I told him that I disagree with his take on the law, and he took it up a notch when he called other bouncers outside to watch me, and further lecture me about the 'law'. If it hadnt gone any farther after that I wouldnt have made this thread, but I was bothered and told to apologize and they wanted to kick me out. If I really had done something wrong they wouldnt have thought twice, they would have denied my entry or kicked me out shortly after. All I asked about was the firearms policy, he could have just said that the policy is no weapons allowed and that would have been all I needed to know. He brought up the law about alcohol being served and I wasnt rude about it, just told him he was in fact wrong about the law.



    Marcus

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    I understand your point, though I might not agree with the way your post played out as it did. The confrontation I would have avoided myself. Those that are ignorant of the law are "always" going to be confrentational for the most part. Me personally would have had CCed. That part of seattle could go bad very quick. I would not feel safe leaving my weapon in the car..

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    .45ballers wrote:
    Do you allow open carry here in this private venue? Ok then I will leave and take my buisness elswhere.
    Yeah, good luck with that. As I said before, there aren't any venues that allow firearms. If you want to pack a gun and see a musical performance in Seattle, you are SOL. There is nowhere else to take your business.

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    joeroket wrote:
    Expvideo, What happened to the attitude you used to have about private property owners and respecting thier rights? It seems like you made a complete turnaround in this thread from what you have said before. Bear with me as I am not trying to be an a$$ but merely wondering if something happened recently that made you change your mind.

    I don't think we should be looking for ways to deny someone their propertyrights. If the mall doesn't want me carrying a gun, I will respect their wishes and shop elsewhere. It's not the law, but it is their property, and they have a right to set certain guidelines of conduct.

    I thought we were pro-rights here? But rather, we are trying to find some "loophole" in the law to deny the mall theirproperty rights.
    Honestly... Yes, my opinion has changed. Here's my new stance:

    If you have a no-gun sign, I will be respectful enough to cover it up so you can't see it. If you have a competitor that doesn't have a no-gun sign, I'll spend my money with them. If not, well, concealed means concealed.

    Yeah. It's not how I want to be feeling on the situation, but when it comes to the Showbox, I'm not going to leave my gun in the car to be stolen, and I'm not hanging out at 1st and Pike unarmed. And since there is nowhere else to take my business that doesn't have the same policy, I don't really give a rat's ass about how they feel about my carrying a gun. I don't really think that whether there's a gun under my shirt is any of your business, and I don't really think that it has anything to do with property rights. Either you allow me on your property or not. Whether I carry a gun onto your property is neither your business, nor your "right" as a property owner.

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