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Thread: Anyone Carry to Church

  1. #1
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    I am diligent member of the LDS church. I have heard on the news of these crazy anti-god people going into a church and shooting it up. When we are in church who is there to protect us?

    We are at the mercy of any liberal crazy person. I have been carrying my gun under my suit jacket, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried to OC at church. I think everyone would feel more comfortable knowing that there is someone there to protect them.







  2. #2
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    I wouldn't carry in Church, particularly openly as it is against Utah Code 76-10-530. More information can be found on the Utah Department of Public Safety: http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFChurch.html

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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    I wouldn't carry in Church, particularly openly as it is against Utah Code 76-10-530. More information can be found on the Utah Department of Public Safety: http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFChurch.html
    It is not against the code to carry at churchesthat have not:[gave] notice that firearms are prohibited...

    According to the website, only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint has given notice to everyone. It is up to the individual churches, not the code.

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    I carry every single time I go to church, bible study, men's church breakfasts, etc.

    If you are LDS and carrying a gun in their houses of worship you are breaking the law. Simple as that. If you are truly following/believing the LDS prophet you shouldn't carry. It is the LDS church's desire to keep guns out of their "houses of worship".

    Maybe you should consider trying a goodbiblebelieving church? If you want to discuss theology of the bible vs. the LDS churchI'd be happy to have some personal discussions with you. I was born and baptized LDS and have extensively studied LDS history, and theology.

    I truly love LDS people. You will never find a more dedicated group of god fearing people than the LDS. Unfortunately the LDS church has totally missed out on thebeautiful personal relationship you can have with Jesus Christ (our Lord, savior, and one and only God). The LDS church wastes all of their time doing "works" to be saved. The bible teaches exactly the opposite. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If you want to learn more about God's grace open your bible to Romans. Especially Romans Chapter 3... It is awesome stuff! :celebrate


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    Let us not get into any bible bashing on this forumn. I am not saying that any has started, but I want to prevent it. We have had some very heated discussions on this forumn not related to firearms and ocing, and it has driven some people away. Let us not continue to do that.

    Thanks.

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    Ignore the trolls



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    possumboy wrote:
    It is not against the code to carry at churchesthat have not:[gave] notice that firearms are prohibited...

    According to the website, only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint has given notice to everyone. It is up to the individual churches, not the code.
    Just to be clear, there are a couple of different ways a church can give notice that guns are banned. The BCI website is ONE of the ways to give notice, but NOT the ONLY way to give notice.

    The LDS Church is currently the only Church making use of the BCI web page to give notice of a gun ban. This eliminates any need for the LDS Church to post signs or give personal notice.

    A reasonable sign, or personal communications from a church officer has EXACTLY the same legal effect (and actually makes a lot more sense, IMO) than the BCI web page.

    I will also add that beyond the legal requirements of the law is the small matter of common courtesy and decency. Whatever we may think of a Church's doctrines, policies, or practices, most decent people will not deliberately violate the wishes of a church while a guest on that church's sacred property.

    There is no law against taking a sausage pizza into a Jewish synagogue or a beer into an LDS church. But nobody with any sense of decency or decorum would do either of those things knowing the Church would find it offensive. And if someone did have some pork jerkey or flask of alcohol in a coat pocket, he would at least keep it discreet.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    longduckdong wrote:
    I am diligent member of the LDS church. I have heard on the news of these crazy anti-god people going into a church and shooting it up. When we are in church who is there to protect us?

    We are at the mercy of any liberal crazy person. I have been carrying my gun under my suit jacket, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried to OC at church. I think everyone would feel more comfortable knowing that there is someone there to protect them.
    The LDS Church has invoked 76-10-530 http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C058.htm which makes it a crime (infraction level) for any private party to carry a gun (open or concealed, permit or not) into a "house of worship." If you have been carrying into LDS houses of worship in Utah, you have been violating the law. The LDS Church leadership has made known their desires on this matter several times going back to 1996. They have done so with press releases, letters read in church, and letters to bishops that were not read in church, as well as with the formal invocation of the law mentioned above.

    This is your first post here, and "diligent" members of the LDS Church tend to use the term "active" rather than "diligent" to desribe themselves. Those who are active in the LDS Church in Utah or who have even followed politics in Utah are almost certainly aware of the LDS Church's position on this matter. And most active, observant, or even "diligant" LDS would NOT choose a moniker like "long duck dong." So my troll radar is going off. But I want to make clear that you are in violation of State law and should change your conduct immediately.

    STOP carrying a gun to church. OR, if carrying a gun to church is of prime importance to you, find a church that is more welcoming of your firearm so you can carry without violating either State law or the wishes of the LDS Church regarding their sacred property.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    I agree with Charles 100%. If anyone desires to ban guns on their property (especially a church) a choice should be made. The choice should be to either abide by their rules, or choose not to enter.

    I find it troubling that any discussion of religion, theology and/or God in today's society is considered by some to betaboo.Iagree thatpersonal attacks regardingreligion should be strictly prohibited. However, there is a difference between attacking someone and discussing a topic. If a religious discussion is raised I will continue to treat it as I would face to face with anybody. I will share my opinion(whilegiving people equal time) and respect other people's freedom, beliefs etc.. For some people religion is a very important part of their life, and I consider a healthy discussion a good thing.

    The LDS church is a huge part of the Utahsociety, and religion is probably discussed here more than anywhere. I don't consider this a bad thing. I continue to live in Utahspecifically because of the high moral values, social standards, political views, etc.... You want to find a concentrated area of people that truly believe in the 10 commandments Utah is the place! Thank God for that!

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    possumboy wrote:
    GeneticsDave wrote:
    I wouldn't carry in Church, particularly openly as it is against Utah Code 76-10-530. More information can be found on the Utah Department of Public Safety: http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFChurch.html
    It is not against the code to carry at churchesthat have not:[gave] notice that firearms are prohibited...

    According to the website, only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint has given notice to everyone. It is up to the individual churches, not the code.
    When I said "I wouldn't carry in Church" I specifcally meant LDS churches - as that was the question the person was asking (as he is LDS). Obviously, if your Church doesn't register with the BCI or post notice (visual or verbal), you can carry there.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    possumboy wrote:
    It is not against the code to carry at churchesthat have not:[gave] notice that firearms are prohibited...

    According to the website, only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint has given notice to everyone. It is up to the individual churches, not the code.
    Just to be clear, there are a couple of different ways a church can give notice that guns are banned. The BCI website is ONE of the ways to give notice, but NOT the ONLY way to give notice.

    The LDS Church is currently the only Church making use of the BCI web page to give notice of a gun ban. This eliminates any need for the LDS Church to post signs or give personal notice.

    A reasonable sign, or personal communications from a church officer has EXACTLY the same legal effect (and actually makes a lot more sense, IMO) than the BCI web page.

    I will also add that beyond the legal requirements of the law is the small matter of common courtesy and decency. Whatever we may think of a Church's doctrines, policies, or practices, most decent people will not deliberately violate the wishes of a church while a guest on that church's sacred property.

    There is no law against taking a sausage pizza into a Jewish synagogue or a beer into an LDS church. But nobody with any sense of decency or decorum would do either of those things knowing the Church would find it offensive. And if someone did have some pork jerkey or flask of alcohol in a coat pocket, he would at least keep it discreet.
    Thanks for the clarification.

    GeneticsDavewrote that is was illegal to carry in a church under the code. The code only provides penalty for people who ignore the wishes of the church.

    I do not really see a point in this law except for providing additional penalties. Church are stillprivate property and should be able to decide what is allowed and disallowed.

    OT: I'm assuming based on the post that LDS frowns on any alcohol? Temples use wine at a lot of services and dinners. I have never seen pork - except the second year of my marriage when I tried to make a honey ham for Rosh Hashanah. HEY! Its a "sweet" start to the new year!

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    possumboy wrote:
    OT: I'm assuming based on the post that LDS frowns on any alcohol? Temples use wine at a lot of services and dinners. I have never seen pork - except the second year of my marriage when I tried to make a honey ham for Rosh Hashanah. HEY! Its a "sweet" start to the new year!
    Yes, the LDS Church's health code known as the "Word of Wisdom" prohibits the drinking of alcoholic beverages, smoking, and the drinking of green/black tea. Those who wish to enter LDS Temples and otherwise fully participate in LDS sacraments (usually called "ordinances" by LDS, but sacraments is the term used by other religions) are required to abide these prohibitions.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    im sure that there are non-denominational Christian churches around that allow the carry of a firearm

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    If I was choosing a church on the basis of whether it would let me carry a gun in their buildings or not I would be out shooting not in church.

    :P

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    "GeneticsDavewrote that is was illegal to carry in a church under the code. The code only provides penalty for people who ignore the wishes of the church."

    I'm sorry, it seems like PossumBoy doesn't understand what I am trying to say, so I will try again.

    The LDS Church has decided that firearms should not be allowed in places of worship. Since they are on good terms with the legislature here in Utah, they helped pass a law that allows for a heavier punishment than that afforded to private businesses and residences. The law stipulates that any church (denomination) may prohibit firearms either by visual (sign), verbal (read to congregation), or internet (posting on Utah BCI webpage) warning. The LDS Church has listed with the BCI as to avoid having to put signs on their doors.

    The member who started this discussion was talking about openly carrying while in an LDS place of worship. Since this is illegal (due to the law, Utah state code), he could be charged with violating the law and may be issued an infraction (ticket). This is different than private property. If you are found to be carrying on private property, you will be asked to leave. If you refure to leave, you may be charged with tresspassing.

    As you can hopefully see, these two items are distinct and separate. If someone wishes to conceal a firearm in Utah while attending a Church that prohibits firearms, they had better make sure they are not caught or they could face receiving an infraction. Openly carrying while at such a place would not be wise and would only bring negative attention to what we are trying to accomplish.

    Hopefully I explained myself in a way that you can understand.

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    longduckdong wrote:
    I am diligent member of the LDS church. I have heard on the news of these crazy anti-god people going into a church and shooting it up. When we are in church who is there to protect us?

    We are at the mercy of any liberal crazy person. I have been carrying my gun under my suit jacket, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried to OC at church. I think everyone would feel more comfortable knowing that there is someone there to protect them.






    Most of the incedents I have heard of, the shooter was usually a member of the church or affiliated with it in some way.

    As far as the "crazy anti-god people" and "liberal crazy person" labels, I recall some passages about "casting of stones" and "the beam in thyne eye" that might apply here... just sayin'...:celebrate



    Yeah I know, don't feed the trolls. Or be one. Sigh.


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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    "The LDS Church has decided that firearms should not be allowed in places of worship. Since they are on good terms with the legislature here in Utah, they helped pass a law that allows for a heavier punishment than that afforded to private businesses and residences. "
    Just to be clear, the LDS Church decided it did not want firearms in ITS houses of worship. While several other churches expressed similar sentiments, and some have also given notice that guns are banned, the LDS church has not attempted to dictate what policy any other church should adopt and most demoninations in Utah have not prohibited guns, so far as I know. (Somewhat off topic, but I also add that so far as I can tell, outside Utah the LDS Church has made no attempts to prohbit guns in their churches.)

    I also note that the punishment for carrying a gun into a house of worship that has given notice is EXACTLY the same as carrying a gun into a private home whose owner/resident has given notice to ban guns. The prohibition and penalty are contained in the same section of code, 76-10-530, Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence. Violation is an infraction.

    These are the only two types of private property to carry this penalty. No other private property in Utah carries a criminal penalty for carrying a gun in contradiction of the owners wishes, though tresspassing charges (misdemeanor) may well be possible if someone refuses to leave when an owner has a legal right to demand they do so and they refuse.

    As far as being on "good terms" with the legislature, ANY group that can claim the support of 75% of the electorate is going to have certain political pull with any elected body. That is exactly why pro-RKBA legislation fairs so well in Utah. We sure aren't handing out very many Jazz tickets. Whether that is the same as being on "good terms" or simple political realities, is another discussion.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Thanks for the clarification on the residence and church bit, you are right, I mixed them up. As for the Church, I did mean that the LDS church decided that they didn't want guns in their own buildings - not that they made that decision about ALL Churches (other denominations).

    I think the only reason they haven't made the decision in other states is that they don't have the same type of law in other states. If they did, I am sure the LDS Church would register there as well. Kind of a shame and something I don't quite understand, but I, and others like me (you all), don't make policy over at the LDS Church HQ.

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    combatcarry wrote:
    I carry every single time I go to church, bible study, men's church breakfasts, etc.

    If you are LDS and carrying a gun in their houses of worship you are breaking the law. Simple as that. If you are truly following/believing the LDS prophet you shouldn't carry. It is the LDS church's desire to keep guns out of their "houses of worship".

    Maybe you should consider trying a goodbiblebelieving church? If you want to discuss theology of the bible vs. the LDS churchI'd be happy to have some personal discussions with you. I was born and baptized LDS and have extensively studied LDS history, and theology.

    I truly love LDS people. You will never find a more dedicated group of god fearing people than the LDS. Unfortunately the LDS church has totally missed out on thebeautiful personal relationship you can have with Jesus Christ (our Lord, savior, and one and only God). The LDS church wastes all of their time doing "works" to be saved. The bible teaches exactly the opposite. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If you want to learn more about God's grace open your bible to Romans. Especially Romans Chapter 3... It is awesome stuff! :celebrate
    WOW looking for an argument here or what?

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    XD45ACP wrote:
    WOW looking for an argument here or what?
    Argue never! You'll never see me waving a sign at Temple Square with the nut-cases. However, I'm always up for a good "personal"discussion on theology.

    I didn't write the following article, and I'm not affiliated with this church, but the article expresses my thoughts nicely: http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs...7/1014/OPINION





  21. #21
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    combatcarry wrote:
    Argue never! You'll never see me waving a sign at Temple Square with the nut-cases. However, I'm always up for a good "personal"discussion on theology.

    I didn't write the following article, and I'm not affiliated with this church, but the article expresses my thoughts nicely: http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs...7/1014/OPINION



    I too love a good theology discussion, either within a single denomination or comparative between different denominations. Indeed, it has taken some real will power to resist responding to your earlier post.

    Between two thinking, charitable individuals who are looking for understanding, rather than to take offense, such discussions can be very enlightening and in most cases tend to highlight how very much various churches hold in common, contrasted to the relatively small (though admittedly often very important) areas where they disagree. Beyond that, I think an increased understanding of other religions helps to increase understanding of and appreciation for one's own chosen beliefs.

    That said, I find internet based text among the most difficult ways to have such a discussion. Far too much of human communication is non-verbal and misunderstandings (regardless of whether offense is taken) are just far too easy and common across a text only medium. Face to face (and ideally over some food) is really the best bet. If one is to venture into such discussions in a text only medium, I believe it should be on forumns where such discussions are expected and welcome.

    While I am sympathetic and even agreeable to the notion that religion ought not be as taboo as it is, the reality remains that many persons are very sensitive to, emotional about, or otherwise would prefer not to discuss religion in "public" settings. So I will offer my opinion that delving into religion here would be grossly off topic and far more likely to cause fractures and division than to advance in any way the goals of this site.

    With that, I will resist mightily the urge to discuss religion itself other than to point out a small difference in word usage that often causes misunderstanding. When Mr. Lonsberry or other use the term "Christian" as something different than what mormons/LDS are they are using a narrower definition of that term than LDS would use. I do agree, largely, with the assessments regarding "historical christianity" IF that term is limited to the period of roughly 200 AD to about 1830 AD. Perhaps if used in contrast to what....say "primeval christianity" to denote the time period roughly prior to 200 AD or so there would be little misunderstanding. But to use "Christian" or "Christianity" alone implies to me, at least, those who subscribe to some basic beliefs regarding the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, His role as Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and attempts to follow His teachings in one's own life, rather than a more narrow view of those who accept the Nicaean and various other creeds that came quite some time following the Savior's mortal ministry.

    I, for one--and most LDS--would never suggest that a person who so believes and professes and attempts to live is not a "Christian" simply because he may have a different view of the nature of the post mortal (or even ante-mortal) Christ than I do, a different belief in the physical nature of God, what day of the week constitutes the proper Sabbath, etc. Such things, while perhaps doctrinally important for one reason or another, are NOT the core of Christianity which I think can and is summarized quite well in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    That, to me, IS the heart and soul of the Gospel, the Good News, of Christianity and ANY who believes such, and makes attempts (however imperfect) to then follow the teachings of Jesus can rightly claim the moniker of "Christian" in my book. How well one emulates the Savior might well determine whether one can honestly be called a "good Christian" or not. But those who accept the core as expressed in that one verse can claim use of the word in my opinion. ALL else, important as it may be, becomes appendages to that central core.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Nice response Charles.

    On thisthread I'd like to give you the last word, with a high level of respect.

    If youwantto continue this discussionone-on-one please contact me by a personal message and I will gladly respond to you directly. If you want to leave this post as the end of the discussion that is fine with me also....

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    Utbagpiper, I am impressed. Very well said. In fact I think I could hear you playing Amazing Grace in the background as I read it.

    I love the bagpipes and am impressed by those who can play them.

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    utbagpiper wrote: [quote]combatcarry wrote:[quote]Argue never! You'll never see me waving a sign at Temple Square with the nut-cases. However, I'm always up for a good "personal"discussion on theology.

    I didn't write the following article, and I'm not affiliated with this church, but the article expresses my thoughts nicely: utbagpiper...,

    Can I just add some things from theBible, the GOOD BOOK.





    Luk 11:21

    When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

    Luke 22:35 Then He said to them, But now,he that hath a purse, let himtake it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I follow the Word of the Lord, so therefore I beleve that the Church does not teach ALL the word of the Lord and are only Selective to what THEY want.



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