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Thread: OC law clarifications

  1. #1
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    2 scenarios I thought of.

    1.) Your planning on OC and you put on a suit or some other outfit that has a coat or jacket of some kind. Its justa normal size jacket, but when put on, covers part or all of afirearm on your waist. Your not trying to conceal, just depending on how you move or stand, part or all is covered. Is thefirearm now considered a concealed weapon? I heard in a admin. of justice class I tookthat this was the case for blades, but I dont think that he said anything about firearms.

    2.) How is a loaded weapon defined. From the sound of what I read, having a loaded magazine on or near you makes the weapon loaded. Does that mean that if you had yourfirearm on your right hip OC and a loaded mag on your left, is that firearm now considered a loaded weapon?

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    benos4752 wrote:
    2 scenarios I thought of.

    1.) Your planning on OC and you put on a suit or some other outfit that has a coat or jacket of some kind. Its justa normal size jacket, but when put on, covers part or all of afirearm on your waist. Your not trying to conceal, just depending on how you move or stand, part or all is covered. Is thefirearm now considered a concealed weapon? I heard in a admin. of justice class I tookthat this was the case for blades, but I dont think that he said anything about firearms.

    2.) How is a loaded weapon defined? From the sound of what I read, having a loaded magazine on or near you makes the weapon loaded. Does that mean that if you had yourfirearm on your right hip OC and a loaded mag on your left, is that firearm now considered a loaded weapon?
    1) Yes, it would be considered a concealed weapon if it was covered in such a fashion that it could not be easily recognized as a firearm. You will note that 12025(f) exempts only firearms carried openly in belt holsters- we can reasonably deduce that shoulder holsters were not included in this section because a firearm would be obscured beneath someone's arm or covered by outerwear.

    2) A loaded weapon is defined in two ways. The most pertinent definition in our case is listed in PC12031(g) which states;
    g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    So, you cannot have a round of ammunitionattached to the firearm or in a position to fire, but you can have loaded magazines in your possession, but not attached to the firearm.

    The second definition appears in a couple of different places, and say pretty much the same thing. A firearm is loaded when an individualhas both the firearm and ammunition in their possession. These only apply in specific applications of the law.
    171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections
    171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate
    possession of the same person.
    171cprohibits possession of weapons in a State or local public building.

    The other citation (which I cant locate at the moment) only applies when the person is commiting a felony or gang crime.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    benos4752 wrote:
    2 scenarios I thought of.

    1.) Your planning on OC and you put on a suit or some other outfit that has a coat or jacket of some kind. Its justa normal size jacket, but when put on, covers part or all of afirearm on your waist. Your not trying to conceal, just depending on how you move or stand, part or all is covered. Is thefirearm now considered a concealed weapon? I heard in a admin. of justice class I tookthat this was the case for blades, but I dont think that he said anything about firearms.

    2.) How is a loaded weapon defined? From the sound of what I read, having a loaded magazine on or near you makes the weapon loaded. Does that mean that if you had yourfirearm on your right hip OC and a loaded mag on your left, is that firearm now considered a loaded weapon?
    1) Yes, it would be considered a concealed weapon if it was covered in such a fashion that it could not be easily recognized as a firearm. You will note that 12025(f) exempts only firearms carried openly in belt holsters- we can reasonably deduce that shoulder holsters were not included in this section because a firearm would be obscured beneath someone's arm or covered by outerwear.

    2) A loaded weapon is defined in two ways. The most pertinent definition in our case is listed in PC12031(g) which states;
    g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    So, you cannot have a round of ammunitionattached to the firearm or in a position to fire, but you can have loaded magazines in your possession, but not attached to the firearm.

    The second definition appears in a couple of different places, and say pretty much the same thing. A firearm is loaded when an individualhas both the firearm and ammunition in their possession. These only apply in specific applications of the law.
    171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections
    171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
    capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate
    possession of the same person.
    171cprohibits possession of weapons in a State or local public building.

    The other citation (which I cant locate at the moment) only applies when the person is commiting a felony or gang crime.
    171b prohibits possession of weapons in State or local public buildings:

    171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part 1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the
    Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
    (1) Any firearm.


    So, if you even have an unloaded firearm, you are in hot water in State or public buildings unless you have avalid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.


    171c and 171d deal specifically withthe State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento.


  4. #4
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Man, I'm slipping.

    Thanks for the correction, D.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Okay, so dress nice to avoid looking criminal, but no suits or anything with jackets. Guess it would be a good idea to make sureI keep my shirt tucked in too.

    And make sure if I have a mag with me, keep it far away from the gun on my person.

  6. #6
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    I think a suit jacket or blazer would be hard to maintain open carry with. I have a light jacket that I wear that I can tuck behind the holster when its partially zipped up that looks okay. But one of the reasons I justfied OC is that concealing during the summer when it's like 110 degress out is ridiculous. Too much sweat transfer onto my holster and weapon and fanny pack is a sure sign someone is carrying anyway.

    You should have your loaded mags with you, or your firearm isa nothing more than a conversation piece rather thanan employablemeans of self defense. Your magazines can pretty much be anywhere on the belt line, even right next to your weapon.

    What you really dont want near your pistol is your hands. Once holstered- don't touch it, adjust it for comfort, or feel for it to check that it is still there. The only time you should touch it is defensively, for retention and when you must case and lock it for transportation.

    On another topic- Do you have someone that can join you? Do you have a recording device? Consulted an attorney?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  7. #7
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    Yeah, its starting to get warmer here, so I dont think jackets will be to much of a problem haha

    On a regular basis, no, no one to join me. I usually go run my errands solo, but on rarer occasions I have people around me, just gotta convince some of my friends to start considering OCing. I do plan to get a voice recorder. The only attorney I know is handleing my brothers traffic tickets, I may be able to consult him, depends on whether or not he is willing to do free consultation. Im starting to get more connections and networking within local police departments, so I may be able to consult them, ask if theyve come across any OC in the area and how it has been recieved.

    My only real concern is this. While I know I wont face any legal trouble, so long as I dont OC in areas Im not supposed to or act like a smart @$$ to any l.e.o., I do want to make sure to stay in a good light with officers. Ive been talking to local SWAT comanders about volunteering as a SWAT medic after I get my paramedic in a year, and I dont want any of the localdepartments thinkingIm some sort of trouble makersince that might cause difficulties.

    However, on another note, since Im going to apply for a LTC, Im going to follow your advice and not do any OCing until I get a result on that, either yay on nay.

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