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Thread: Of guns and Unicorns

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    Lately i have seen a number of threads about people in Indiana open carrying and having problems. Now open carrying is a good thing, tho i have only done it once and am still not to comfortable with the idea of ******* off Fort Waynes finest.

    The gist of what im gathering from this subforum and the persuing threads is that a sizeable number of residents here in Indiana open carry. Living in Fort Wayne i have yet to see any one ever open carry. I usually travel to about three other towns, Auburn,New Haven and Churubusco. In all my 26 years of visiting those areas, including frequent trips to my grandfathers and family down in huntington county, i have yet to see any one open carry. EVER. Now this doesnt include gunstores, seeing as everyone oc's when they step through the door.

    Maybe My area isnt chaulk full of people who oc, but id love to see some people doing it. On this subforum there is a lot of talk about having open carry get togethers. I know alot happen at cabelas but i do not know were that store is, nor how long of a drive away it is. I would love to see a large open carry get together happen here in Fort Wayne. My idea is we meet some were down town, and walk around the city for awhile. Then we could eat at some of the fine establishments downtown i have never been to before seeing as i live on the northside, i dont get down that way very often. After eating we could go carpooling, or tailgateing to H&H firearms on Colesium blvd and shoot at there gun range. Well maybe not after dinner but before dinner, or how ever we want to work it out.

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    Cabelas is in Hammond, about 2 miles east of the Indiana/ILL border at the intersection of I80 and Indianpolis blvd. You can visit cabelas website and get directions and more info.

    Cabelas is one of many places there are outtings or meetings. Since Cabelas is new, has a gun counter and food, location and what not we've been trying hard for Cabelas since alot people want to both go to the new store and also meet up with fellow OCDO'ers.

    There is a pretty large Indiana group over on glocktalk that meetup both in southern part of the state around Indy/ Speedway. Also some guys from S. Bend area as well...

    I wouldn't say there are 'alot' of problems being encountered, as a whole I've only once been told not to OC and that was by an ignorant cabelas employees. Even with that I wouldn't exactly call it a negative experience, because it was resloved.

    Once out of the past 2-3 years is pretty good IMO.

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    Well, ill try to get to the next ocdo meeting at cabellas. Indiana is coming close to being the perfect gun state. With some of the laws in congress right now that are infavor of gun rights(the ammo law has no chance in hell), it wont be to long before we have state wide open carry spelled out in law.

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    Mordis wrote:
    Well, ill try to get to the next ocdo meeting at cabellas. Indiana is coming close to being the perfect gun state. With some of the laws in congress right now that are infavor of gun rights(the ammo law has no chance in hell), it wont be to long before we have state wide open carry spelled out in law.
    Mordis, respectfully, why do we need a law ALLOWING us to do what is already a God given right? If there is no law against it, why do we need a law for it? Enacting laws to ALLOW citizens to do things that we already have rights to do (as enumerate in the Constitution and BOR) is part of the problem in THESE United States.

    At one time, we the people, limited government on what it was to engage in on our behalf. Now, it is the other way around? Sadly, we have come to accept this.

    While Indiana does have some decent firearms laws, it has a long way to go before being 'perfect'. We cannot carry in any form in Schools, Churches (must get permission), the statehouse, etc. The Statehouse issue is being addressed with legislators by 2nd Amendment Patriots. Those are the chaps that pressed the Lifetime LTCH issue home. We owe them a great thanks.

    http://www.2ndamendmentpatriots.org/

    WE also don't have the best of reciprocity with other states, such as Ohio, NM, Minnesota, Nebraska, etc. That's another can of worms that is a step beyond our lawmakers as it involves dialouge other states AG's and lawmakers.

    IMO, AK has the only correct firearms laws, as it is legal to carry OC or CC as long as YOU can legally own a firearm. All you need be able to do is show ID to a cop if asked so as to verify legal status. That, I believe, is about the best one can hope for. Will it ever come to Indiana? I doubt it, but I also doubted that Lifetime licences would get signed into law.

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    bobcatI have never seen a law saying you can not carry in a church. Can you show me that please.

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    I think he's saying you must get permission (to carry in a Church), but although I have heard that is true in other states, I do not believe it to be true for IN. I have read that you must be very careful, because if the Church has a school or even a day care that you didn't know about, you can still be charged.

    I have only seen one other person OC in Indiana and that was at a gun store.

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    HMDGlock,

    This is as close as I can find right now that is CLEAR? and it DOES NOT say a church or 'place of worship' is illegal w or w/o permission. Hmmmmm.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USOffLimitsA-M.pdf

    http://www.in.gov/isp/files/FirearmsFAQ.pdf

    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/

    Schools have their own section. But does this include College/University campuses? Private or Public owned? After reading IC35-47-9-1, it is not exactly clear as to who can or cannot posses a firearm on school grounds. Law enforcement and those hired for security are exempt...

    I know for a FACT that the statehouse and many of the state office buildings are victim disarmament zones because this has been a point of discussion with my rep and was the point of an article run in the Star recently. But this is NOT specifically stated anywhere that I can find. Must be the fine print somewhere that sureptitiously includes all state owned/operated buildings??

    I've looked at the Indiana Code and can't find the applicable one that has 'the list'. I'll keep looking. I could well be wrong (ain't the first time and won't be the last). More than one pastor has mentioned carrying in church as being illegal. Hmmm. Is that because the STATE says so or HE says so? I also recall reading several years ago (uh-oh) that 'places of worship' were verboten without permission. Could this have been changed? Possible, as there have been some changes recently.

    Not being able to carry in church has always been a bone of contention with me, so maybe I CAN carry legally in church?

    Anyone that knows for sure or can site THE lndiana code please jump in, or beat me over the head with it.


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    I don't see in your links, nor have I ever seen an outright ban on firearms in churches in IN. Like I said, I would be cautious about wether the Church also fits the description of a school and also many churches have licensed day cares.

    I have never read about state owned properties being o/l either. I did read where the statehouse was installing metal detectors. Maybee someone more knowlegeable then me can speak to that one. I know local govts can restrict their own buildings.

    we have discussed school property and colleges before definition of school property found in IC 35-41-1-24.7

    Someone had a good reference to a book on there, and someone posted an email from the ISP on the subject.

    That topic was:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum22/4377-2.html


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    I don't see in your links, nor have I ever seen an outright ban on firearms in churches in IN. Like I said, I would be cautious about wether the Church also fits the description of a school and also many churches have licensed day cares.
    Excellent point, Ralph.

    As I read through some of the IN code, it sure looks to me like it has had a major rewrite recently? Lots of repealed sections and some new stuff. It just seems disjointed and difficult to piece together without reading it multiple times. Too many lawyers trying to cover all angles... Clear as mud.

    Anyone with clear language on this, please post.

    Guess I need to start asking some LEO aquaintances where I can find some clear language. Maybe the 2AP folks can help out?

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    bobcat wrote:
    Guess I need to start asking some LEO aquaintances where I can find some clear language. Maybe the 2AP folks can help out?
    Never ask a LEO a legal question. Ask a lawyer instead.

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    bobcat it needs to be spelled out in law, so places like Garry indiana wont harras open carriers anymore, as well as protecting those in other places. As i have mentioned before in another thread, i have talked to several different cops from a few different agencies. I recieved several different answeres, ranging from nothing to full multi car turnout with handcuffs and possible taser usage. It seems the view of indiana law is different per each agency and cop. If it was spelled out then they would have to follow some form of guide lines.

    For even more reasons why someone should spell it out in law, search google for the Fort Wayne police department forums. I cant remember the link right now, but the police rep there said it is SOP tostop and detain and question anyone carrying a gun that they see. I asked for some more info and they said that they just are making sure that the person is legal to own a gun, and not intending crime, but i feel that this is wrong. That is why we need it spelled out in law.

    I would like clarification on carring in church as well. If you look around alot of churches have daycares and preschools and what not in the same building as the church and its service. Now i have considered carrying concealed in some churches but it is a harrowing thought, not knowing if im breaking the law or not. Here is a example of the type of church were talking about. Some large Random church in NE Indiana. Its a large church, with both daycares and preschools as well as worship services. As far as i know the preschools and daycare are in a different area of the church, but i doubt it matters in the eyes of the law.

    Its these multi purpose churches that are the source of confusion. if we could get that clarified it would be great.

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    bobcat it needs to be spelled out in law, so places like Garry indiana wont harras open carriers anymore, as well as protecting those in other places. As i have mentioned before in another thread, i have talked to several different cops from a few different agencies. I recieved several different answeres, ranging from nothing to full multi car turnout with handcuffs and possible taser usage. It seems the view of indiana law is different per each agency and cop. If it was spelled out then they would have to follow some form of guide lines.
    I agree that those areas off limits to licenced firearms owners needs to be made clear. I'll stick with, 'if it isn't documented in Indiana code that it's illegal, then it is perfectly legal. I.e., carrying open with a valid LTCH. I would suggest that the Gary officers (and others) need some 'ejumakashun' on the law. One way to do that may be to find an officer willing to dialogue unofficially. Preferably one with some rank so he/she has some clout. It won't be easy and it won't happen overnight. Be kinda nice to have some clearly written code though wouldn't it?:P

    While I mentioned talking to LEO/PO friends, I know some who are quite well informed on the law in general. These fellows are more Peace Officer than LEO, are pro RKBA and do not have a problem with OC. However, the last conversation I had was that they are obligated to respond to a panicky 911 call for "man with a gun". It's the translation from the caller to the dispatcher to the responding officer where communication first gets lost. So it seems the entire system needs better education.

    When I ask these cops questions, it is only ONE source of information for me. The reason I ask them about issues like those found on this board is; 1) Understand what the general LEO/PO perception is, 2) Establish dialogue without an 'official' contact, 3) Gather information on laws that I don't know about and can research, 4) An opportunity to voice my opinion in a calm, professional manner on subject x or inform them regarding a law. It is and has been a two way street.

    As for attorneys, these guys tend to be relatively specialized and focus only on what they or their practice makes money at. So finding one that has a firm grasp of firearms laws ain't easy. Tain't easy finding one.

    Mordis:
    For even more reasons why someone should spell it out in law, search google for the Fort Wayne police department forums. I cant remember the link right now, but the police rep there said it is SOP to stop and detain and question anyone carrying a gun that they see. I asked for some more info and they said that they just are making sure that the person is legal to own a gun, and not intending crime, but i feel that this is wrong. That is why we need it spelled out in law.
    I couldn't agree more on clarity and our intent. As I alluded to at the beginning of this post, this appears to be a general problem. Whenever we responsibly OC, we could/should expect a PO/LEO to calmly and professionally ask to see our valid LTCH. That's just part of living in Indiana, as that's the law. Beyond that, they should not be doing anything as we have not done anything illegal (I hope). Well, that's not what's happening in most cases from what I gather on this board and discussions with friends.

    Aside: I just had a near run-in with a youngish State Trooper in a barbershop recently. I was CC'g a 1911 and had a thin, clingy sweatshirt on over it. (Mainly to avoid getting hair all over it.:P) To say it was printing is a mild understatement. The bottome of the holster also peeks out occasionaly. As I got up to leave, a 'customer' gave me the intense ugly eye. As he sat on the edge of his seat, ready to get up, his eyes moved rapidly between my hip and my face. I've been made, no big deal. I just smiled politely and left. No conversation by anyone. As I got in my vehicle, I noticed that he had driven up in a STATE TROOPER's car! Okay, now I know why that 'citizen' responded that way. Another one that probably needs EDUCATION.

    I submit the fault is not just OURS but lies with the law enforcement community as well. It doesn't help that previous generations of citizens allowed the acceptance of OC to slip. How to solve that EDUCATION problem?

    It looks to me like a major education program by RKBA folks needs to happen (won't be the first time). While I have some ideas, this is not a simple matter of individuals writing letters to Sheriff's and Chief's. While that's worthwhile, I don't believe it will have the desired effect we are talking about here. Such a campaign should be taken on by a recognized and responsible state wide group like the 2nd Amendment Patriots. They are working on access to the statehouse right now.

    Out West where OC is more common, I've been told by friends there (unvetted) that as long as your firearm stays in the holster, no problem. Seems reasonable. And that's how 'MWG' calls are handled by many (but not all) dipatchers.

    On the flip side, I have one friend in WY that OC's in several western states daily and has had the bulk of his trouble in CO. He's been slammed to the ground from behind (felony arrest style) more than onceand forcable disarmed with a gun to his head. He's been to court and WON on more than one occasion. CO is an anomaous OC state, but does not have preemption and so has a patchwork of disarmament zones (DENVER)

    Carrying Open is to be taken most seriously (not suggesting any of us wouldn't, just confirming the need) and with the expectation of confrontation by citizenry, store managers, and uninformed LEO's. How many stories are there on this forum to that effect? Great Gobs! Both positive and negative.

    As for me, sometimes I'm not willing to risk the time and effort accompaning confrontation, so I CC. Call me chicken, but I believe it is the better part of valor in picking the time and place for OC. That's what works for me at this point. YMMV.

    Mordis, I agree that groups seem to be a GOOD approach at this point for areas that are 'challenge prone'. At the least, have some friends with you while OC'ing, even if they are not. Dave Ridley in NH has proven this techniques worth more than once on VIDEO. It's not out of the question to have a camcorder with the group! Go to Ridley's sight and watch some of his videos. Even OC Dave highly recommends groups.

    Mordis:
    I would like clarification on carring in church as well. If you look around alot of churches have daycares and preschools and what not in the same building as the church and its service. Now, I HAVE CONSIDERED CC in some churches but it is a harrowing experiance, not knowing if ITS breaking the law or not. Here is a example of the type of church we're talking about. XYZ church of the XYZ, near A and B road in XYZ county. Its a large church, with both daycares and preschools as well as worship services. As far as i know the preschools and daycare are in a different area of the church, but i doubt it matters in the eyes of the law.
    Mordis, while you have some level of anonymity on the web/forum, it's not absolute. So if you are unsure if something is legal, don't post the specifics of your activities that some overzealous DA could initiate an investigation on. Just a suggestion. I highly recommend you significantly edit your post.

    As Dave Ridley has commented that the OC issue is one of EDUCATION. I agree that is true and applies to the legal citizen who OC's, citizenry in general, business owners and law enforcement. While this is not a new idea, it bears repeating, A UNIFORM and UNITED approach to education is likely the best approach. Many here have 'OC walks' which is a great thing to do as part of the solution, but we have to expect that more will be required to get the job 'done'. IMO, it's not JUST about OC, it's about RKBA in general.


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    bobcat wrote:
    Mordis wrote:
    Well, ill try to get to the next ocdo meeting at cabellas. Indiana is coming close to being the perfect gun state. With some of the laws in congress right now that are infavor of gun rights(the ammo law has no chance in hell), it wont be to long before we have state wide open carry spelled out in law.
    Mordis, respectfully, why do we need a law ALLOWING us to do what is already a God given right? If there is no law against it, why do we need a law for it? Enacting laws to ALLOW citizens to do things that we already have rights to do (as enumerate in the Constitution and BOR) is part of the problem in THESE United States.

    At one time, we the people, limited government on what it was to engage in on our behalf. Now, it is the other way around? Sadly, we have come to accept this.

    While Indiana does have some decent firearms laws, it has a long way to go before being 'perfect'. We cannot carry in any form in Schools, Churches (must get permission), the statehouse, etc. The Statehouse issue is being addressed with legislators by 2nd Amendment Patriots. Those are the chaps that pressed the Lifetime LTCH issue home. We owe them a great thanks.

    http://www.2ndamendmentpatriots.org/

    WE also don't have the best of reciprocity with other states, such as Ohio, NM, Minnesota, Nebraska, etc. That's another can of worms that is a step beyond our lawmakers as it involves dialouge other states AG's and lawmakers.

    IMO, AK has the only correct firearms laws, as it is legal to carry OC or CC as long as YOU can legally own a firearm. All you need be able to do is show ID to a cop if asked so as to verify legal status. That, I believe, is about the best one can hope for. Will it ever come to Indiana? I doubt it, but I also doubted that Lifetime licences would get signed into law.
    You're wrong about church carry not being legal in Indiana. It IS legal here.



    Indiana code lists the following locations as off limits:

    In or On School Property.
    On a school bus
    In or on property that is being used by a school for a school function
    Private School(IC 20­9.1­1­3) & (IC 35­41­1­24.7)
    Head Start (IC 35­41­1­24.7)
    Preschool (IC 35-41-1-24.7)
    IC 35­47­9­1Allows the carry of firearms by persons permitted to possess and who are transporting a person to or from school or a school function.
    On an aircraft
    Controlled access areas of an airport
    During annual State Fair 80 IAC 4-4-4 (Must lock in vehicle)
    Shipping port 130 IAC 4-1-8 (Controlled by Indiana Port Commission)
    A riverboat Casino



    68 IAC 1­7­1 Weapons on the Riverboat (d) The riverboat licensee shall provide a secure place to which patrons do not have access to store weapons checked by patrons, off duty law enforcement officers, or off duty federal enforcement officers.


    Nowhere on this list are churches mentioned as being off limits.


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    tattedupboy wrote:


    In or on property that is being used by a school for a school function
    Private School(IC 20*9.1*1*3) & (IC 35*41*1*24.7)



    Nowhere on this list are churches mentioned as being off limits.
    You're right, but it's that "in or on..." and "private school" part that causes the confusion. So many churches have classrooms that it's hard to tell which ones are "legal" and which ones aren't.

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    I'm pretty sure that it is understood that by "church" we mean Sunday service, a time during which school is not in session and neither is day care. Nobody is going to be arrested while carrying at Sunday service; I would exercise caution after hours during school and day care hours, however.

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    bobcat wrote:
    I couldn't agree more on clarity and our intent. As I alluded to at the beginning of this post, this appears to be a general problem. Whenever we responsibly OC, we could/should expect a PO/LEO to calmly and professionally ask to see our valid LTCH. That's just part of living in Indiana, as that's the law. Beyond that, they should not be doing anything as we have not done anything illegal (I hope). Well, that's not what's happening in most cases from what I gather on this board and discussions with friends.

    I'm not sure if I agree with this. Why should we expect an LEO to ask to see our LTCH if we are peaceably carrying?

    Even if they received a man with a gun call I should not be approached. The call should not even make it passed the dispatcher. It should go like this.

    caller: There's a man with a gun.

    dispatcher: What is the man doing?

    caller: walking around store.

    dispatcher: Is he threatening anyone?

    caller: no he looks like he's shopping.

    dispatcher: is the gun in his hand or in a holster?

    caller: holster.

    dispatcher: it is legal to peaceably carry a firearm in IN. Thank you for your call.

    Unless there is any evidence or suggestion thata crime is being committed IE. brandishing a weapon, verbal threat, dischargeof firearmthere should be no active response.

    Would you expect to be pulled over simply because a call was received that you were driving a car?


    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    tattedupboy wrote:
    I'm pretty sure that it is understood that by "church" we mean Sunday service, a time during which school is not in session and neither is day care. Nobody is going to be arrested while carrying at Sunday service; I would exercise caution after hours during school and day care hours, however.
    Tat, thanks for your correction on 'churches'. That is something I WANTED to be wrong on. I couldn't find it in that mess of confusing code either. It just bugs me that 'I know I've read it somewhere before that it is illegal'. But, I can't find it and no one else can find it so far. Hopefully, the fact that it is NOT mentioned will suffice, AS IT SHOULD. (Thanks to HMDGLOCK for the initial ???)

    My current pastor has said from the pulpit that carrying in church is illegal (as recently as within the last year). Hmmm. I'll have a discussion with him about this. Should be interesting. I rather suspect that given his generally pro 2A attitude, super discreet concealed carry of a small cal BUG may pass muster? We'll see. AFIK, he does have the authority to say NO. (Uh oh, here I go again?)

    It's the issue that Skippy is questioning about 'schools' on the same premisis that poses something of a dilemma. While I agree with your logic, Tat about carrying on Sunday and ostensively not when any 'school' is in session as being okay, I suspect an overzealous DA may think otherwise? Dunno. A good question for a lawyer 'in the know'.


    Beau:
    I'm not sure if I agree with this. Why should we expect an LEO to ask to see our LTCH if we are peaceably carrying? Even if they received a man with a gun call I should not be approached. The call should not even make it passed the dispatcher. It should go like this.

    Beau, I agree with you that this is HOW IT SHOULD BE in Indiana. It could be in some small hamlet with well informed police and the occasional informed cop, but it hasn't shown itself to be the case a good deal of the time. As well, the questions I've posed to my cop friends in the Southern part of the state, indicate that I should expect a cop to confront me (not yet). And the way folks have been treated (the stories here, Gary, Ft. Wayne, Merrilville, etc) seem to support this. As for plain folks, Tat's recent grocery experience shows just how uninformed and brainwashed the general public is. I still can't believe that Aldi mgr didn't call the cops! Tat, you must be a magician with words!

    What I'm saying is that in the CURRENT CLIMATE of apparently marginal to poor education of a significant portion of cops on gun laws, we should fully EXPECT to be stopped and questioned when OC'ing. No, it ain't right, that's just the way it is, - for now. That's why I made the argument for EDUCATION on the current laws. You really gotta see Dave Ridley's video on being stopped in Manchester, NH on August 04, 2007.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI

    Dave does a SUPERB job of calmly and confidently handling the situation. He refers to it calmly as 'just a matter of education'. It's apparent he has some experience with this. Russell, the guy in the stripped shirt, shows, IMO, what NOT to do. If you've seen the video, you'll understand. If you haven't seen it (it's made the rounds on forums) it is certainly worth looking at. While Dave does not have to give anything to the cop but his name in NH, Indiana says we have to fork over our little pink LTCH permission slip upon request.



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    If LEO asks you to see your LTCH and you carrying peacefully, do you have to show them. Or just give them your name and residence.

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    Yes I believe so but can't find it in the code.. anyone else?

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    Bobcat, i edited my post, to get rid of some possible problems.

    Church carry is a big issue, one that needs alot of attention IMHO. Crime happens there during mass as has been seen recently. While a reasonable person may think that going to a sunday service at a church that has a daycare and preschool will be ok, I can guarantee you that a da will try to screw you. Its in there nature, they love there power to put people in jail and love to weild it. The court room is a drama, its a exciting trip for them and they cant get enough of it.

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    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    If LEO asks you to see your LTCH and you carrying peacefully, do you have to show them. Or just give them your name and residence.
    IC 35-44-3-7
    Refusal to aid an officer
    Sec. 7. A person who, when ordered by a law enforcement officer to assist the officer in the execution of the officer's duties, knowingly or intentionally, and without a reasonable cause, refuses to assist commits refusal to aid an officer, a Class B misdemeanor.


    This is their solution to the repeal of the section of code that applied to "Failure to Identify." They can/will charge you depending on the officer. Just flash 'em the pink paper and move on.

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    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    If LEO asks you to see your LTCH and you carrying peacefully, do you have to show them. Or just give them your name and residence.
    Not to be a smart alec, but why would you NOT show your license?

  23. #23
    Regular Member
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    mac45 wrote:
    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    If LEO asks you to see your LTCH and you carrying peacefully, do you have to show them. Or just give them your name and residence.
    Not to be a smart alec, but why would you NOT show your license?
    It's the "Nazi Germany" argument. If you aren't committing a crime, you shouldn't have to be required to produce your papers on demand. I make no comment as to whether I agree with that or not.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Beau's Avatar
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    What about this. I have never been in a church that didn't have a Sunday school class for the kids if they had the room. Would this count as well? I think it could be argued either way.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

  25. #25
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    Skippy wrote:
    mac45 wrote:
    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    If LEO asks you to see your LTCH and you carrying peacefully, do you have to show them. Or just give them your name and residence.
    Not to be a smart alec, but why would you NOT show your license?
    It's the "Nazi Germany" argument. If you aren't committing a crime, you shouldn't have to be required to produce your papers on demand. I make no comment as to whether I agree with that or not.
    OK mac45 I never said I would notshow LEO. Which I probably would.I was just wondering the legality on the situation.

    Also to say if you are walking down the street and cop says conceal your gun. Are you going to say "Ok sir, I Will." I would hope not.

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