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Thread: Police Negotiations... in China.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Custodian's Avatar
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    My wife got this in an email from her friend....

    Through the magic of copy/paste...

    Bamf!

    *Edit*: Scholfield, I have no idea to place mutiple pictures inside one post. Mods, please help me out if you feel free or not. But I may have to do this in a multi post. Thanks for the heads up, so I just redid it over.

    Demands of Kidnapper
    & Chinese
    Release Negotiations



    "I have 3 demands or I'll kill the boy!"

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    You forgot the line detailing how they concluded the negotiations: By deciding which one has to shoot the criminal this time, going over, bang, and calling the corpse wagon. :P

    Edit: Huh, I think there are supposed to be images loading but it tries to load something from Yahoo... So maybe I missed part of it?

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    Negotiators assess the situation from
    next door.
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    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    Head Negotiator dispatched
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    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    Negotiations begin


    Attached Images Attached Images
    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    Negotiations concluded
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    In this country, we
    would block off the street, take 12 hours to talk him out of it, spend $5
    million giving him a fair trial, and pay his food and lodging for life.
    No wonder their products are cheaper than
    ours.
    ----- [original text]----
    Now for my thoughts... The Chinese are nowhere perfect, however, its hard to argue with real Law and Order. And I agree, we do end up giving full doctoral rides to Crime University aka Prison, wait, nooo... Correctional Centers or Correctional Institutions as they are being styled now.

    And your thoughts on this imagery, text, or my notions?
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    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    MY EYES!!! ZE GOOGLES... ZHEY DO NOSZHING!

    (seriously, clean up your posts it's so hard to read)
    -Unrequited

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    The imagery is graphic.

    The tactics that are used, are obviously much more "efficient" in ending a situation and removing a threat from society. Americans in general would NEVER go for this though. Even a dangerous violent criminal has a right to due process in America. While, ideologically, I wouldn't disagree with the Chinese actions, I can see and appreciate the argument against it.

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    Everyone's a fan of martial law until they get shot.

    Just think of a few of the negative OC encounters ending in the police shooting the OCer. Suddenly efficiency isn't such a good thing, is it?

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    What has been lost is common sense. There is a whole lot of difference between someone pointing a gun at people and declaring them hostages and a law abiding citizen pointing a gun at criminals and saying "thank God you are here" to LE when they arrive. The problem is that our gov't has become so acclimated to violating the rights of law abiding citizens while protecting those of criminals, that we do not trust their agents of LE to be able to distinguish between the two situations. Therefore we have 20 cop cars chasing a guy for running a stop sign in LA and day long stand offs with self-declared homicidal maniacs threating the lives of law abiding citizens instead of just taking out the bad guy with a sniper round. There is a middle ground but I am not sure it can be achieved in the current political and liberty-encroaching environment of today's America.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    That would be a very effective way to end school shootings like Virginia Tech. Certainly better than the police surrounding and negociating while people are dying.

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    Custodian wrote:
    In this country, we
    would block off the street, take 12 hours to talk him out of it, spend $5
    million giving him a fair trial, and pay his food and lodging for life.
    And your point is...you'd rather live in a police state like China? Constitutional rights are useless to you? What?

    I have no problem with using violence to end hostage situations in progress as seen here, but your attitude of contempt toward human life and the right to a fair trial is one of the poisons that infects America today.Characteristic of the Dirty Harry mentality is the "get tough" attitude among the populace and the belief that the way to stop crime is to spit on the Constitution, along with the self-delusion that this attitude will not come back to bite you "as long as you're not a criminal". This has led to the current "pro-torture" attitude that is no longer something politicians feel the need to hide.



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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Custodian wrote:
    In this country, we
    would block off the street, take 12 hours to talk him out of it, spend $5
    million giving him a fair trial, and pay his food and lodging for life.
    And your point is...you'd rather live in a police state like China? Constitutional rights are useless to you? What?

    I have no problem with using violence to end hostage situations in progress as seen here, but your attitude of contempt toward human life and the right to a fair trial is one of the poisons that infects America today.Characteristic of the Dirty Harry mentality is the "get tough" attitude among the populace and the belief that the way to stop crime is to spit on the Constitution, along with the self-delusion that this attitude will not come back to bite you "as long as you're not a criminal". This has led to the current "pro-torture" attitude that is no longer something politicians feel the need to hide.
    But Tomahawk, you're forgetting that we should only suspend rights for thugs and other criminals. Oh, and terrorists too. We can give rights to law-abiding sh**ple, er subjects, er citizens.

    Remember, the world is always black and white. The police can always tell, instantly, who is "good" and who is "bad", and are capable of summarily executing the right person every time.



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    massltca wrote:
    That would be a very effective way to end school shootings like Virginia Tech. Certainly better than the police surrounding and negociating while people are dying.
    When did the police negotiate during Virginia Tech? I don't quite remember that detail...

    :?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    massltca wrote:
    That would be a very effective way to end school shootings like Virginia Tech. Certainly better than the police surrounding and negociating while people are dying.
    When did the police negotiate during Virginia Tech? I don't quite remember that detail...

    :?
    The default mode for dealing with mass shootings is to stand around outside for at least a few minutes figuring out what's going on, and then enter the building after the guy shoots himself.

    Not that I'm criticizing the police here, I can't blame somebody for wanting to think before doing something stupid, that is to be expected. But if that's how it's going to be, you need to remove restrictions on victims carrying for self defense.

    But what do I know, I'm just "anti-police", "anti-government", and all that stuff, they tell me. Pay no mind to my dumb rantings...

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    Custodian wrote:
    Demands of Kidnapper
    & Chinese
    Release Negotiations


    "I have 3 demands or I'll kill the boy!"
    A few questions, folks.

    Kill the boy with what? The three fingers, or the Kleenex he's fingering in his left cargo pocket?

    How do we know this was a hostage situation? We trust the Chinese media?

    What if it wasa father who didn't want his kid forced into a government program? A father who lost a custody battle?

    Why was a supposed hostage-taker sitting in a window, wide open to a shot from any police sniper?

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Custodian wrote:
    Demands of Kidnapper
    & Chinese
    Release Negotiations


    "I have 3 demands or I'll kill the boy!"
    A few questions, folks.

    Kill the boy with what? The three fingers, or the Kleenex he's fingering in his left cargo pocket?

    How do we know this was a hostage situation? We trust the Chinese media?

    What if it wasa father who didn't want his kid forced into a government program? A father who lost a custody battle?

    Why was a supposed hostage-taker sitting in a window, wide open to a shot from any police sniper?
    Well, it was the government acting, so surely they were right. The world is all black and white, good and evil, and the government good guys need to take out the bad guys as efficiently as possible. And this is a good thing, since the good guys are never wrong.



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    it's nice so many folks think the police are always wrong, not matter what country the cops are from.

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/crime/negotiation.asp

    Maybe some of us here would be better off arm-chair quarterbacking some other profesion.

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    FightingGlock19 wrote:
    it's nice so many folks think the police are always wrong, not matter what country the cops are from.

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/crime/negotiation.asp

    Maybe some of us here would be better off arm-chair quarterbacking some other profesion.
    We're questioning the attitude that an accused person should be treated as if they have no rights, not necessarily this particular incident.

    Try to set your pro-police bias aside for a moment and think objectively.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    FightingGlock19 wrote:
    it's nice so many folks think the police are always wrong, not matter what country the cops are from.

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/crime/negotiation.asp

    Maybe some of us here would be better off arm-chair quarterbacking some other profesion.
    We're questioning the attitude that an accused person should be treated as if they have no rights, not necessarily this particular incident.

    Try to set your pro-police bias aside for a moment and think objectively.
    Note that I take the same stance toward citizens' taking the law into their own hands.

    Here, it's not anti-police, it's anti-arbitrary-use-of-deadly-force. It's ackowledging that the world is rarely ever black and white, and even rarer still that the situation is so clear that deadly force can be applied justly, accurately, and efficiently. Not to mention a distaste for the attitude that killing is the proper solution to most of life's and society's problems... and the corresponding attitude that rights only matter when they concern the person giving the opinion.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    massltca wrote:
    That would be a very effective way to end school shootings like Virginia Tech. Certainly better than the police surrounding and negociating while people are dying.
    When did the police negotiate during Virginia Tech? I don't quite remember that detail...

    :?
    They didn't, they got there after the shooting was over surrounded the place and marched everyone out with their hands in the air. I would rather one of his victims had shot him and prevented the needless deaths of 33 people. My point is that the way police respond to active shooters situations doesn't work. I'm not ani police I just think that sometimes they stand around for too long when decisive action is called for. The incident the OP is refering too is an effective way to deal with a hostage situation but it would never fly here nor should it.

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    massltca wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    massltca wrote:
    That would be a very effective way to end school shootings like Virginia Tech. Certainly better than the police surrounding and negociating while people are dying.
    When did the police negotiate during Virginia Tech? I don't quite remember that detail...

    :?
    They didn't, they got there after the shooting was over surrounded the place and marched everyone out with their hands in the air. I would rather one of his victims had shot him and prevented the needless deaths of 33 people. My point is that the way police respond to active shooters situations doesn't work. I'm not ani police I just think that sometimes they stand around for too long when decisive action is called for. The incident the OP is refering too is an effective way to deal with a hostage situation but it would never fly here nor should it.
    No offense, but I can't see anything more than a very weak relationship between negotiating in hostage situations and mass shootings. I agree with the points you make, just not that they're related...

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Some things are pretty black and white. Outside of war or national disputes (which I am excluding because it would take the issue far beyond the scope of individual RKBA), anyone who physically threatens the life of another to take their property or to demand others surrender their property should be prepared to be killed on the spot. This would include muggers, armed robbers, and hostage takers. I don't care if the BG is mentally distraught, anguishing over Dr. Phil and Oprah's self help du jour or is "under priveledged" socio-economically or any other supposed mitigating factor. In a civilized society, the threat of death should loom over any BG who threatens the life of another citizen for personal gain, whether from the other citizen's hand or from the legal system. Violent crime should be a very dangerous occupation with a high fatality rate. I would think the primary reason this has not been the case in our justice system for a long time, is that if it were, there would no longer be a disincentive for the BGs to murder all robbery or mugging victims, so we make it a lesser crime if you just threaten their lives and take their stuff than if you follow through with your threat and kill them and take their stuff. I'm not saying that such a rationale doesn't make sense as I think it does, however, I don't feel even a twinge of remorse or sympathy for the BG if he is killed in such a situation and actually have a sense of "he got what he deserved" any time I read of an armed robber, mugger or hostage taker losing his life. We as a society recognize the imminent threat such a situation poses and consider lethal force by the victim in such a confrontation justified.

    *To keep this OT, I want to stress that my above comments are specific to instances when the BG threatens the life of another citizen and I am not extending my comments to include petty theft, shoplifting or any criminal act that falls short of threatening the life of the victim.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Some things are pretty black and white. Outside of war or national disputes (which I am excluding because it would take the issue far beyond the scope of individual RKBA), anyone who physically threatens the life of another to take their property or to demand others surrender their property should be prepared to be killed on the spot. This would include muggers, armed robbers, and hostage takers. I don't care if the BG is mentally distraught, anguishing over Dr. Phil and Oprah's self help du jour or is "under priveledged" socio-economically or any other supposed mitigating factor. In a civilized society, the threat of death should loom over any BG who threatens the life of another citizen for personal gain, whether from the other citizen's hand or from the legal system. Violent crime should be a very dangerous occupation with a high fatality rate. I would think the primary reason this has not been the case in our justice system for a long time, is that if it were, there would no longer be a disincentive for the BGs to murder all robbery or mugging victims, so we make it a lesser crime if you just threaten their lives and take their stuff than if you follow through with your threat and kill them and take their stuff. I'm not saying that such a rationale doesn't make sense as I think it does, however, I don't feel even a twinge of remorse or sympathy for the BG if he is killed in such a situation and actually have a sense of "he got what he deserved" any time I read of an armed robber, mugger or hostage taker losing his life. We as a society recognize the imminent threat such a situation poses and consider lethal force by the victim in such a confrontation justified.

    *To keep this OT, I want to stress that my above comments are specific to instances when the BG threatens the life of another citizen and I am not extending my comments to include petty theft, shoplifting or any criminal act that falls short of threatening the life of the victim.
    Good points, but I think that tends to bring us back to http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum60/6469.html

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