Reports: Several people shot at Northern Illinois University

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Sleepless,

In reading your response I realized part of my post was unclear.

It seems that many times here in the US people are prescribed these meds when they don't need them but rather as a means to appease parents who think their kid has a "problem" or just by a doc looking to prescribe and move on to another patient. "Your kid is hyper, here is some ritalin...Next."

As I understand it (which is not much) people who "need" antidepressants are made to feel "normal" when they take them. If a person doesn't need them there can be other side effects?

Ok this is totally off topic but I think the fact that drugs have played such a major role in these shootings does need to be discussed as sleepless said.

No one should have their rights suspended without good and proper facts coming into play and I am by no means saying everyone on these meds should be suspect.

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No NAU wrote:

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Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, the Oregon killer who gunned down his parents and classmates, were all on psychotropic drugs.

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I haven't heard that the Columbine shooters were on psycho-pharmacological medication but it wouldn't surprise me.

It seems that most of kids and teenagers in the US in this day and age is on some kind of mood stabilizing medication or another.

What I have heard though was that the Columbine shooters were sociopathic in nature, not sure if it is true or not but from what I heardthrough the movie Bowling for Columbine it seems very likely.

I have also heard about that kids sometimes go on pharma parties where each kid brings either their own or their families medication to the party anddumps it into a big snack bowl and all the kids takes some pills from it and eats it like it was candy, this isalso something that is highly disturbing if it is true but knowing kids today I have a feeling that it is unfortunately true.

It seems like the whole world is going to hell in a hand basket but what can we do to stop all this from happening, this should be handled notjust by the parents or the schools but by society in general, but these are merely my two cents which according to conversion rate would be around2.5 cents in Canadian Dollars.

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What about the city hall meeting that a gunman opened up on. He shot 3 police officers that where in there. So having a gun did not stop him. He was finally stopped by the police but only after shooting people.



This is not a simple problem to take care of. I guess we all get body armour.

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No NAU wrote:

Sleepless,

In reading your response I realized part of my post was unclear.

It seems that many times here in the US people are prescribed these meds when they don't need them but rather as a means to appease parents who think their kid has a "problem" or just by a doc looking to prescribe and move on to another patient. "Your kid is hyper, here is some ritalin...Next."

As I understand it (which is not much) people who "need" antidepressants are made to feel "normal" when they take them. If a person doesn't need them there can be other side effects?

Ok this is totally off topic but I think the fact that drugs have played such a major role in these shootings does need to be discussed as sleepless said.

No one should have their rights suspended without good and proper facts coming into play and I am by no means saying everyone on these meds should be suspect.

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Well I believe that if a person is given some kind of psycho-pharmacological medication when it isn't needed then there is a chance that it could affect them negatively or possibly cause them to develop some kind of mental illness due to the medication affecting the brain chemistry negatively which means that the brain chemistry will try to somehow correct itself which is normal in natural law.

Btw I believe that it has been proven that ritalin can make a person more docile but it can also at times cause the patient to get rage attacks.

This is off topic possibly but I have a friend of mine who also has Tourette Syndrome and ADHDand he was admitted into Toronto Hospital for Sick Kids and he was on ritalin, hesuffered a rage attack in the hospital and he was around 16-17 years old at the time and very skinny yetit took approximately 6 security guards to restrain him but before they had managed to restrain him then he had beaten them black and blue and they had to be checked out by an emergency doctor before they could go back to work, my friend was since that incident forever banned from that hospital and is never allowed to enter the facility for as long as he lives.

This can show you what improper medications given to the wrong patient can do, the family had come to the doctor because they wanted to ask about various medications for him and said that they had heardhow ritalincould help some people with TS and ADHD, the doctor just told him and his family that he should start takingit immediately andjust wrote a prescription and called in the next kid but to my knowledge the doctor never warned the family about what side effects that could appear of which rage attacks is one.

But I believe that doctors should be involved ina reporting system just like there is for people who apply for a drivers license, and then theDPS could have psychologists on staff to review medical records for the people with mental problems who apply for a gun license but that has been flagged by their doctors, this might cause some legal headaches though but it is better then nothing at all, thoughthese psychologists should be pro-gun but know that it is their job to do the review and if necessary call in the applicant for an interview because I believe that anti-gun psychologists would deny more people with mental problems not because their disability could be a danger to themselves or others but because if they deny the people with mental disabilities then it would be less people out there who would be carrying guns.

Any thoughts??

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Sleepless:

<flame suit on>

The stupidity of the people blaming these shootings on drugs is only exceeded by that of those that either think that a sign and law will stop them from happeningor those that think that if you carry a gun you are protected from being shot by these people and can stop all shooting before they can possibly fire theirs. Prozac or other similar drugs do not turn a normal person into a suicidal maniac or mass murderer. However they in some cases can take a person who has such tendencies and help them become a normal person. They don't always work but I want someone to show me a case where a normal person was turned into a suicidal maniac by them. If they were normal why were they prescribed to start with? As for the ritalan for the hyperactive child, I think we should do like when I was in school, kick them out and tell them good luck.We have a jail cell waiting on you when you turn 18 and now the rest of us can get on with our lives rather than being interrupted by your antics every 10 minutes and the teacher having to spend half of her timetrying to calm you down so the other kids can learn. These kids are one of the main reasons thatteachers can't teach anymore.

I took various anti-depressants for several years and still take them from time to time. The one thing I have to say about them is they saved my life. Otherwise there was a time when I probably could have done justy like the shooter yesterday and not felt one thing emotionally. Thank goodness I am over that but it burns me up that all these people run aroundtelling about how you better watch out for any taking any kind of anti-depressant because they are being turned into a psychotic monster.If you would just take their drugs away and give them a gun to carry everyone could live in a fairy tale world.

<flame suit off>

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thnycav wrote:

What about the city hall meeting that a gunman opened up on. He shot 3 police officers that where in there. So having a gun did not stop him. He was finally stopped by the police but only after shooting people.



This is not a simple problem to take care of. I guess we all get body armour.

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From what I have heard, he first went into the police station and shot it up and then he walked to city hall next door and there heshot 1-2 police officers outside of the conference room and then another cop inside and then also the mayor and people from the different departments.

Question is if the cops at city hall had been warned on the radio that the gunman had just shot up the police station because then I believe they could have done a better job watching out for the shooter if he was planning on attacking city hall too but they should have postponed the city council meeting and close and lock the doors to the room immediately when the cops would hear that the station next door was under attack, so to say a full lock down of city hall with all the doorsimmediately closingwithred warning lightsflashing and somebody getting on the PA system and announcing an immediate complete lock down of the building which would also meanbulletproof barriers going down overall the exits and windows and all the doors inside the buildingwould have a thick metal plate inside the door to protect from any attempt of gun fire and a CCD system connected to inside the room so that people locked inside could see what is happening outside if they had biometric security access.

When I lived in an apartment in Sweden I lived what looked like a great neighbourhood from the outside but it was pretty bad when you actually lived there andIwas planning on buying afront door for my apartment that had a metal plate in it so it was kick-in proof andwhen you locked it from either the inside or the outside itwould engage 3 thick solid steel bolts at the top, bottom and on bothsides of the door (the same design as bank vaults) to make itimpossible to break into but I moved to Canada before I had the money to buy it but now if I move to the US and if I get a house then I am planning on making it impenetrable and highly secure no matter where I will be living because safety is very important to me but so is self-defense.

thnycav you can just write me off as a security/self-defence nut if you want because if I got to design a building then it would probably be more secure then Cheyenne Mountain, Fort Knox and the US Federal Reserve combined but that is just me.

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PT111 wrote:

Sleepless:

<flame suit on>

The stupidity of the people blaming these shootings on drugs is only exceeded by that of those that either think that a sign and law will stop them from happeningor those that think that if you carry a gun you are protected from being shot by these people and can stop all shooting before they can possibly fire theirs. Prozac or other similar drugs do not turn a normal person into a suicidal maniac or mass murderer. However they in some cases can take a person who has such tendencies and help them become a normal person. They don't always work but I want someone to show me a case where a normal person was turned into a suicidal maniac by them. If they were normal why were they prescribed to start with? As for the ritalan for the hyperactive child, I think we should do like when I was in school, kick them out and tell them good luck.We have a jail cell waiting on you when you turn 18 and now the rest of us can get on with our lives rather than being interrupted by your antics every 10 minutes and the teacher having to spend half of her timetrying to calm you down so the other kids can learn. These kids are one of the main reasons thatteachers can't teach anymore.

I took various anti-depressants for several years and still take them from time to time. The one thing I have to say about them is they saved my life. Otherwise there was a time when I probably could have done justy like the shooter yesterday and not felt one thing emotionally. Thank goodness I am over that but it burns me up that all these people run aroundtelling about how you better watch out for any taking any kind of anti-depressant because they are being turned into a psychotic monster.If you would just take their drugs away and give them a gun to carry everyone could live in a fairy tale world.

<flame suit off>

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I agree medication isn't the first thing that is the problem but it can actually have a negative affect on some people though I ain't saying all of them, I have myself taken anti-depressants and even anti-psychotic because they were supposed to help my Tourette Syndrome, I am definetly not anti-medication because I got quite a lot of help from the medications I took but some people who have taken anti-depressants and anti-psychotic and that suddenly goes off them has the possibility of having a stronger episode of their mental illness.

Imagine suddenly going off the medications if you already have a severe mental illness to a pressure cooker, the pressure is normal when you are on your medication but when you suddenly go off them and don't go down slowly to let your body get used to it then it is like the pressure keeps going higher and higher and in the end the steam has to come out which in a person with a severe mental illness could possibly be an explosive action, but I believe that the persons mental illness was the highest problem but if he suddenly went totally off his medication then the fault is his but it is possible that he didn't realize that his mental illness could come back stronger then before, when I took one of my medications I felt like it didn't help my Tourette Syndrome so I went off it because I didn't notice any difference but when I suddenly went off it then my tics started coming out a lot stronger then before so medications can be an amazing help most of the time IF you take it like you are supposed to and that is regularly but if you suddenly go off the medication then you could be in trouble just like I experienced for myself, on a personal note anyway, I am presently not on any medication right now for my depression or Tourette Syndrome, I am actually trying to beat my depression on my own with just my mind and willpower and sometimes it works and sometimes it is a bit harder and some days it goes straight to hell but I have noticed some improvements even though they are coming very slowly they are in the end coming but back to the previous programming at hand.

And I value your comment because I can learn a lot from it about myself and also how I explain things and for this I thank you.

And don't worry I never flame anybody, well almost never but if I do then they deserve it though I prefer a flamethrower and not a computer, much more fun that way.

Sorry too many Rambo movies I think.

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I think one thing people overlook is the fact that with people like Cho, the Columbine shooters, the IL shooting, that the presence of CHP will not STOP this from occuring, but it will most definatly reduce the deaths.

If people are going to commit suicide when all is said and done, the "someone might be carrying" doesn't really come into play as much. Granted, they are going for zones which no one will be and they will have a much higher success rate.

It might not *stop* them from carrying out their deeds, but, it may just reduce the number of people that end up dead in "gun free zones"

It also irks me the argument from anti's that "you want EVERYONE to be carrying!!?!"

Well no, I want those that will take the responsibility of carrying and carry. I have basically all but stopped consuming alcohol due to the fact that I want to ensure that if something does go wrong I can be of right mind to deal with it. It is a responsibility, and it is a serious one. To assume everyone would carry is just inane. But that 5% that would could give this all but a 0% chance of ever happening again.

We live in a different world now a day, I wish we could figure out why people are doing this. I wonder if the extreme "feminization" of boys has just created men that don't know how to deal with stress and anger and they lash out. Who knows.

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Sleepless: My comments were not aimed at you at all because I agree with your comments. You are exactly correct with the thoughts about how someone on medication stops and that can lead to disaster. Many years ago I injured my shoulder and they put me on prednisone. Aftere a couple of days I had a severe reaction and stopped. I found out that you have to taper off of it. :shock: Yes, when someone has been on certain medications and stop "cold turkey" it can have severe reactions and this is what can lead to disaster.

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hsmith wrote:

I think one thing people overlook is the fact that with people like Cho, the Columbine shooters, the IL shooting, that the presence of CHP will not STOP this from occuring, but it will most definatly reduce the deaths.

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It can in many cases. In the council meeting there were several armed LEO around so how would a CCW been such a miracle. I am not saying at all that they won't help but they are not the panacea that some try to make them out to be. Maybe at VT there would have only been 10 killed but there would have been at least 2.

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PT111 wrote:

It can in many cases. In the council meeting there were several armed LEO around so how would a CCW been such a miracle. I am not saying at all that they won't help but they are not the panacea that some try to make them out to be. Maybe at VT there would have only been 10 killed but there would have been at least 2.

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I agree. I don't think it will eliminate those with mal intent from carrying out their goals, but it will greatly reduce the victims they have. Sad world.

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hsmith wrote:

PT111 wrote:

It can in many cases. In the council meeting there were several armed LEO around so how would a CCW been such a miracle. I am not saying at all that they won't help but they are not the panacea that some try to make them out to be. Maybe at VT there would have only been 10 killed but there would have been at least 2.

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I agree. I don't think it will eliminate those with mal intent from carrying out their goals, but it will greatly reduce the victims they have. Sad world.

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There is not a 100% survival rate of people who get in accidents while wearing seatbelts and driving a vehicle with airbags and crumple zones. There is not a 100% survival rate of people riding motorcycles while wearing leathers and high quality helmets do not survive accidents. There is not a 100% survival rate of SCUBA divers with a redundant air supply and other safety devices in a diving accident. And there is not a 100% chance that someone having a CC or OC pistol at Columbine, VA Tech, NIU, etc would have reduced the death tolls. Still, I like the odds of my loved ones or my survival a lot better if those potentially life saving devices/tools are present than the odds of survival without them. We are constantly bombarded with media info about safety devices saving lives. Gov't requires us to wear seat belts and helmets for our own good. The equivalency with trained CC and OC citizens should be obvious to all but the most virulent bed-wetters.

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Might could use some help here, though it seems I am turning at least one person to our way of thinking: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?p=1601741&posted=1#post1601741

I'm DGTess there. Yes, I lost my cool a bit, but I'm back now.

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Sleepless wrote:

SNIP Ihaven't heard that the Columbine shooters were on psycho-pharmacological medication but it wouldn't surprise me.

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I've come across information that one was on a psycho-pharmacological drug.

I can't recall whethertheotherwasn't or his medical records weresealed.

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I always remembered this little gem.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9904/29/luvox.explainer/
"(CNN) -- Reports surfaced Wednesday that one of the gunmen in the Littleton, Colorado, school shooting, Eric Harris, was rejected by Marine Corps recruiters days before the Columbine High School massacre because he was under a doctor's care and had been prescribed an anti-depressant medication."
"Harris' prescription was for Luvox, an anti-depressant medication commonly used to treat patients with obsessive-compulsive disorder."

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bohdi wrote:

People say allowing students to be armed is a bad idea; they can’t control themselves, and are irresponsible. These statements are unfounded, and stereotype adults of a wide age range and maturity levels. It’s a form of discrimination.

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BRCC still allows CC with a permit.

Current Blue Ridge Community College Body Count: Zero


Edit: Also, for further consideration on the "killers prefer unarmed victim zones"...


"A School Is No Place For A Gun" - Eric Harris
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0707061columbine1.html

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deepdiver wrote:

hsmith wrote:

PT111 wrote:

It can in many cases. In the council meeting there were several armed LEO around so how would a CCW been such a miracle. I am not saying at all that they won't help but they are not the panacea that some try to make them out to be. Maybe at VT there would have only been 10 killed but there would have been at least 2.

Click to expand...

I agree. I don't think it will eliminate those with mal intent from carrying out their goals, but it will greatly reduce the victims they have. Sad world.

Click to expand...

There is not a 100% survival rate of people who get in accidents while wearing seatbelts and driving a vehicle with airbags and crumple zones. There is not a 100% survival rate of people riding motorcycles while wearing leathers and high quality helmets do not survive accidents. There is not a 100% survival rate of SCUBA divers with a redundant air supply and other safety devices in a diving accident. And there is not a 100% chance that someone having a CC or OC pistol at Columbine, VA Tech, NIU, etc would have reduced the death tolls. Still, I like the odds of my loved ones or my survival a lot better if those potentially life saving devices/tools are present than the odds of survival without them. We are constantly bombarded with media info about safety devices saving lives. Gov't requires us to wear seat belts and helmets for our own good. The equivalency with trained CC and OC citizens should be obvious to all but the most virulent bed-wetters.

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I think most of us are on the same page with this and the rhetoric between those who claim banning guns is the answer and those who proclaim that arming everyone is the answer hurts our cause. As I heard a congressman say many years ago that a head on crash at 70mph was pretty much going to be fatal no matter what kind of safety devices we install. When someone starts proclaimin that these could have been prevented by CCW it comes across as crazy as saying that posting a sign would have prevented it. We need to change our tactics and start pointing out how the number of killed could have been reduced by CCW. I have three daughters in college and if you think all of this doesn't worry me you are crazy but I know that just by them carrying a gun wouldn't make them totally safe. Itwill increase their odds just like carrying a spare tire increases you odds of getting to your destination. But just like having a gun and not knowing how to use it, a spare tire that is flat or if you don't know how to get it changed doesn't do a whole lot of good.

Somewhere in all of this is a sensible middle ground that will help but as long as the two sides refuse to give one inch and keep telling everyone to kiss their a$$ we are going to continue down this horrible road of destruction.

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This news link was posted on Sympatico which is a Canadian Internet Service Provider with the information taken from CTV which is a Canadian TV Station.

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20080214%2fillinois_follow_080215

Campus shooter described as 'outstanding' student

The gunman who killed five people at Northern Illinois University was identified Friday as 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak -- described as a promising former student who was "revered" by faculty.

University Police Chief Donald Grady said Kazmierczak was known widely as an "outstanding" student while at NIU.

"We had no indications at all this would be the type of person that would engage in such activity,'' he added.

School websites described Kazmierczak as an award-winning sociology student who led a campus criminal justice group.

Armed with a pump-action shotgun and three handguns, Kazmierczak opened fire in a lecture hall filled with more than 100 students on Thursday afternoon.

Kazmierczak also wounded at least 15 others before shooting himself.

Investigators recovered 48 shell casings and six shotgun shells at the scene, said Grady.

DeKalb County coroner Rusty Miller said Friday that there had been confusion over the death toll and that the gunman killed five people, not six as earlier reported.

"There was a miscommunication," he said.

Kazmierczak graduated from NIU in 2007 and moved on to the graduate school of social work at the University of Illinois in Champaign.

Grady said Kazmierczak left no note and there was no clue as to his motive. Without giving details, Grady added that Kazmierczak had become erratic in the past two weeks after he had stopped taking his medication.

Guns legally bought

Police said on Friday they learned Kazmierczak bought two guns -- a Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun -- at a Champaign, Ill., gun store on Feb. 8.

On Aug. 6, Kazmierczak bought the other two handguns -- a High Point .380 on Dec. 30 and a Sig Sauer on Aug. 6. -- at the same store.

Kazmierczak had no criminal record. All four of his guns were bought legally from a federally-licensed gun dealer, said Thomas Ahern, spokesperson for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Police say Kazmierczak carried the shotgun to the crime scene in a guitar case. He carried the three other guns under his coat.

His distraught father, Robert Kazmierczak, spoke briefly to reporters outside his single-story house in Lakeland, Fla.

"Please leave me alone . . . This is a very hard time for me," he said.

Kazmierczak grew up in Elk Grove Village, a Chicago suburb near O'Hare Airport. His mother died in Florida in 2006 at age 58.

One neighbour told The Associated Press that it was "not possible" for Steven Kazmierczak to have committed such an act, adding that "he seemed to be much too nice."

Political reaction

U.S. President George Bush on Friday called the shooting a "tragic situation."

"Obviously, a tragic situation on that campus, and I asked our fellow citizens to offer their blessings," Bush said.

Democratic presidential rivals Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton, meanwhile, called for a stand on gun violence after Thursday's shooting rampage.

Obama said although he respects the Second Amendment, there is no reason local governments cannot introduce gun safety laws to deal with violence in their communities.

Clinton said the government has to do everything it can in taking "reasonable steps" to keep children safe.

Terrified students

Witnesses said Kazmierczak was dressed in black and was wearing a stocking cap when he emerged from behind a screen on the stage of Cole Hall.

Screams filled the hall as Kazmierczak sprayed bullets into the auditorium.

Survivor James Donahue told ABC News he was shot as he tried to escape from the chaos.

"As soon as I got in the aisle he must have turned towards me and he hit me back in my left shoulder and back of my head."

The 25,000-student campus is located in DeKalb, about 100 kilometres west of Chicago.

With files from the Associated Press

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There seems to be a thin line between brilliance and madness or so they say.

And now it looks like Obama wants to remove the preemption laws on the books in the various states for local laws instead, just the opposite of what is needed, if there should be a law then it should come from the state in regards to guns and things like that and not city to city or county to county otherwise all hell will break loose in the state legislature and the law of the land in the various states will look like a chess board, various laws of various severity regarding gun control, this will soon become a legal nightmare both for the legislature, the lawyers and the gun owners.

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PT111, I hear you loud and clear. We must avoid spreading the message that armed citizens are a line of defense. They are a reactionary tool.

My father started carrying after the shooting at the San Diego McDonalds years ago. I remember him telling me "If I had been there, people would probablyhave died, but there wouldn't have been 12 victims."

Thank you for pointing this out.

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vmathis12019 wrote:

Now that the anger has subsided, sadness once again sets in.

Let those of us among us who will pray for all of those touched by this tragedy. These students didn't deserve what happened today. Even the one's who weren't injured have to live with this trageyd for the rest of their lives.

The worst thing about it is, that I know, at 8 o clock in the morning, I will be stepping into a classroom myself, unarmed, where anyone could walk in and do the same thing that happened at NIU. That said, pray for ALL college students who go as fish, unarmed and defenseless, in the proverbial barrel.

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You mean you don't have a backpack with a handgun-sized compartment?

On a serious note, though, it's a sad state of affairs when a student must risk expulsion at best and a felony at worst in order to protect himself and others.