SCCC: Time to put or shut up fellas.

vmathis12019 · Feb 15, 2008

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Okay Bama Boys,

This morning (while skipping my Sociology and Political Theory classes), I gave Senator Holley's office a call. He wasn't in, but I spoke with his secretary and left her my information and my concerns so I will be talking with him personally next Teusday afternoon.

SB 18 is in the Senate now. Short hand: College Students can carry with license IF ROTC members.

As I'm sure we all agree, this is perposterous. It's time to call our reps and let them know what we think about it. Later this evening when I get out of class, I will be typing up a letter that we can ALL use to send to our Senators (Rick, Kurt, if you guys can wiggle us up a nice little letterhead for the ALFRA in a hurry, I can make a standar word .doc for download here).

I will also be contacting the only other SCCC campus leader in the state that I know of at Auburn to see about a joint campus operation on this issue. I am going to be printing flyers to hang around my campus and try to generate some interest in the subject, which will likely follow the format available at the SCCC website. Asa student, I will be doing my part, but we cannot do it without support from all of you who aren't students. Talk to your friends and get them involved. Get everyone to call as many offices as you can. We WILL be heard. Let's not let an NIU or a VT happen here before our politicians wake up and realize the error of their ways! GET ON YOUR PHONES NOW! It takes literally five minutes, and you will have helped!

Please Please Please. From a university student who is disarmed everyday and forced to walk around like a fish in a barrel, help us push a revised form of this bill through!

flounder22 · Feb 15, 2008

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Good deal V. I just now placed a call to Senator Ben Brooks office,I talked to his secretary as he in only in his office on Mondays and Fridays. she said that she would have him return my call on Mon. We will see. I will be waiting to download your letter to send out as well. Karl

vmathis12019 · Feb 15, 2008

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Just emailed the editor of the Tropolitan (campus paper) requesting an interview or op-ed piece. I suspect I'll hear back from them today or Monday, so I will update when I can. I have a little piece written up for the op-ed if that's what they want to do, but, as you all know, I can be longwinded and verbose, so I think an interview is probably better. I'm having some printer troubles (mine doesn't work!) so I can't print out the flyers or handouts that I wanted to print w/o going to the UPS store (which equals $$$), but when I get a chance, I will print them and start posting them around campus.

Jared · Feb 15, 2008

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It's already legal in Alabama to carry into a school with a license. Who really care's if the school doesn't like it. Just conceal it well and don't tell anyone. If you ever need it, the last thing on your mind will be talking to the dean to reverse an expulsion.

I don't see the point to this bill.

HungSquirrel · Feb 15, 2008

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It's the principle of the matter. A student need not give up the rest of his liberties while attending a public university, so why should a publicly-funded university be permitted to expel someone who uses his RKBA?

Then again, I am one of those crazy gun-toting redneck extremists who thinks he should be permitted to carry openly on campus.

Edit: Just sent this to my senator.

Senator Brooks,

I am a Mobile resident in your district and a student at the University of South Alabama. As a staunch supporter of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA), I am very interested in the wording and outcome of SB18, which would allow a student with a pistol permit to carry his pistol on the campus of a state-funded university, regardles of any policies the university may have regarding firearms on campus. At first glance, this bill appears to be a beacon of hope to RKBA supporters. After all, a student does not sacrifice the rest of his civil liberties at a public college, so why should this right be any different?

However, I am troubled by the stipulations in the proposed legislation, particularly #5, which reads:

"Is a participant in an ROTC program at the college or university or approved by the college or university."

I feel that any student the State feels is qualified to carry a pistol should be permitted to do so, and that this right should not merely be given to members of a specific club or organization. The notion that one must belong to a privileged class to exercise a fundamental human right is contrary to the spirit of liberty.

I urge you and the rest of the Senate to revise the wording of SB18 and remove stipulation #5 from the bill. Removing stipulation #4 would be prudent as well, as the constitutions of the United States as well as the State of Alabama make no mention of a training requirement when giving us our right to bear arms.

Thank you for your attention on this important issue.

vmathis12019 · Feb 15, 2008

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Jared wrote:

It's already legal in Alabama to carry into a school with a license. Who really care's if the school doesn't like it. Just conceal it well and don't tell anyone. If you ever need it, the last thing on your mind will be talking to the dean to reverse an expulsion.

I don't see the point to this bill.

You're missing the point terribly. I've ranted about this in another thread, so I won't get angry and yell and throw things this time but:

Don't tell people to violate campus policies. It can get them expelled. If you are truly concerned, HELP US pass legislation to reverse it. If, like you, the situation is in another state and out of your realm of influence, for the love of God, keep your insanely ill-advised statements to yourself.

Kurt? Edwin? One of you guys want to take this one? My "anger gland" is overworked for today.

vmathis12019 · Feb 15, 2008

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This post pertains to a sequence of email correspondences I had today with a member of the staff at the Tropolitcan, the Troy University student paper:

This is the original Email I sent to the Trop:

Tropolitan Staff,

First, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Andrew Mathis and I am a sophomore Political Science major here at Troy. I also happen to be co-founder of the newly formed Alabama Firearms Rights Association, and Troy's official Campus Leader of the National Organization known as Students For Concealed Carry on Campus, or SCCC.

In light of recent events, particularly the tragic shooting that occurred yesterday at NIU, I would be truly grateful if you would grant me the opportunity to address the student body, in an interview or op-ed piece, about the issues of licensed concealed carry on campus and the dangers of policy produced "gun free zones."

Because this issue covers so many different topics, it is somewhat difficult to put it into a small 3 or 4 paragraph article, and, as I am not a journalism major inclined to such talents, I tend to be rather longwinded, affirming the idea that an interview with one of your reporters might be more effective than a self-written piece. Of course, this is completely up to you, and I would be happy to do either.

You may contact me anytime via email at this address, as I check it rather often. In case you are interested, I am available every Monday and Friday after 1pm (this even includes today if you would like).

On behalf of SCCC, I sincerely thank you for your time and any consideration.

Sincerely,
Andrew Mathis

The reply I recieved about an hourlater from Holly Keaton, Co Editor:

Andrew,
You may submit a letter to the editor on your concerns. This would be the best way
to address that particular issue. If it is too long, we can edit it. Typically, letters are
around 350-500 words. We appreciate your opinions, so email it back to this
address with the subject Letter to the Editor. Also, make sure you include name,
major, hometown and classification. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Holli Keaton
Co-Editor

I was pretty impressed at the indifferent tone of this young lady. I honestly expected a very negative reply and a proverbial "Hell No!" from Troy's paper staff (according to thefire.net or .org or something, Troy has one of the worst rating's in the country when it comes to cencorship and freedom of speech).

Here is my reply with the text of the article I wrote:

Holli,
Thanks for the prompt reply. I have attached a word document of the piece I have written with proper emphatic formatting. The text of the article, sans formatting, can also be found below. As for the personal information, my name is Andrew Mathis and I am from Opp, AL. I am currently a sophomore at Troy majoring in Political Science concentrating in International Relations. As stated in the article and in the previous email, I am also the appointed Campus Leader for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus for Troy.

I would appreciate a notification if you decide to publish my piece, and would also like to see a copy of the edited edition you and your staff produce to print.

Thanks,
Andrew Mathis

Every day in America, millions of young adults step onto college campuses. Why are we here? Most of us are here because we are investing in our own futures. College degree holders stand a much better chance of being successful than non-degree holders. However, what good is all that hard work when a madman bent on killing steps into your classroom and shoots you in the head? Think this could never happen here? Think again.

In the last week, America has seen 4 school shootings across the nation, two of them at colleges. Since the massacre at Virginia Tech that saw 31 innocent people lose their lives, there have been 5 college shootings including the most recent at Northern Illinois University which has officially claimed the lives of 5 innocent individuals. What do all of these schools have in common? In every situation, either state laws or school policies guaranteed that the shooter would face an unarmed and helpless population of victims, in what the media have dubbed “gun free zones.”

In the State of Alabama, statutory law, in particular, Code of Alabama 1975 Title 13A-11-72 subsections E and F, clearly allows for licensed concealed carry by students on campus. However, state law does not clearly prohibit campuses from placing academic sanctions on students for violating school codes of conduct, which, at virtually all universities, prohibit weapons on campus. While you would not be breaking the law by carrying with a license on campus in AL, you would be violating school policy. This allows our administrators to arbitrarily disarm those of us who are licensed to carry concealed handguns on pain of academic penalty, and even dismissal from the university. (Alabama Code of 1975 viewable at: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, or SCCC, a national organization with nearly 12,000 members has for the last year been fighting hard to push legislation all over the country that would eliminate this problem. It is an uphill struggle, but with your support, we can see the elimination of college campuses as “Victim Disarmament Zones.” In the state of Utah, the only State that has adopted the policies that allow concealed carry on campus and prevent universities from prohibiting licensed concealed carry, there have been no violent incidents involving licensed individuals since the legislation was passed, and there have been no shootings carried out by psychotic gunmen, thus quelling the argument that college students with guns will turn the campus into the O.K. Corral. As the official campus leader for Troy University of SCCC, it is my hope that students here will become more aware of the fact that, while on campus, no one is here to protect them. Self-defense is your responsibility, and while carrying a concealed firearm is not necessarily the answer for everyone, those of us who do choose to carry should not be forced to disarm simply because we are college students.

The Alabama Senate has recently seen legislation introduced to allow certain students to carry on campus, without fear of academic penalty, as long as they are licensed, pass a gun skills course, and are ROTC members. While this seems to be a step in the right direction, SCCC believes that there is no special “class” of people who deserve the right to defend themselves. ROTC or not, if you are licensed, we believe you should be allowed to carry on campus, much like you are allowed to virtually everywhere else. It is up to you, the student, therefore, to call your state senators and ask them to support a revised version of this bill. ROTC members, like police officers, cannot be everywhere and do not have a constitutional duty to protect you from a murderer (see US Supreme Court Cases South v. Maryland 1856 and Bowers v. DeVito 1982).

Keep your eyes open around campus in the coming weeks, as I will be hanging flyers and giving out handouts about SCCC and concealed carry on campus in general. SCCC is also hosting a Nation Wide silent protest called the Empty Holster Protest during the week of April 21st, an event that you can check out by visiting our site or Facebook group. Any student, professor, or administrator that would like any more information about SCCC can visit our website at http://www.concealedcampus.org, or you may feel free to contact me by email at vmathis12019@troy.edu. I also encourage those that are interested to join the SCCC-Troy University Facebook group, which will be regularly updated with information about the Empty Holster Protest in April, the status of Alabama legislation on the subject, and any activities that might be planned depending on the show of support we get.

I have also attached the .doc file that I sent her, where you can view all my fancy "emphatic formatting."

Edited to fix a formatting error in the article above.

flounder22 · Feb 15, 2008

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About an hour ago, Senator Brooks returned my call to him from this morning. It was his opinion that SB 18 was so controversial that it would not be put to a vote. He said he wasa big fan of the right to bear arms but did not think that this bill would go too far, too fast. :banghead:

Jared · Feb 18, 2008

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vmathis12019 wrote:

Jared wrote:

It's already legal in Alabama to carry into a school with a license. Who really care's if the school doesn't like it. Just conceal it well and don't tell anyone. If you ever need it, the last thing on your mind will be talking to the dean to reverse an expulsion.

I don't see the point to this bill.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point terribly. I've ranted about this in another thread, so I won't get angry and yell and throw things this time but:

Don't tell people to violate campus policies. It can get them expelled. If you are truly concerned, HELP US pass legislation to reverse it. If, like you, the situation is in another state and out of your realm of influence, for the love of God, keep your insanely ill-advised statements to yourself.

Kurt? Edwin? One of you guys want to take this one? My "anger gland" is overworked for today.

You need to calm yourself down then. I'm concerned with the legality, not policy. Nothing is stopping you from carrying at college. Your legally ok in Alabama. So it's against policy, no one has to know, it's not a crime to break school policy. While you may have explained this in other threads, people are throwing words around too loosely about this. It's not like Texas or Louisiana, where you commit a felony by carryingin a school.

So there is a difference, and as far as your request to help out in Alabama, no thanks.

As vice president of CRALRI (http://www.cralri.com) I already have my hands full with Rhode Island and legal action against licensing authorities that refuse to follow the law, and I haven't lived in Rhode Island in 3 years. So your on your own with you "school policy" issues in Alabama.

As far as your legislative quest, consider a court option as well. This has happened in Utah and in Utah, the idealist university powers to be lost.

I do agree that a publicly funded school should not be allowed to restrict any legal activity within it's campus.

What I can tell you is that if you get angry over a thread, your probably going to blow a gasket when people either backstab you or blow you off in your effort here. It will happen as it's happend to all of us who have been involved in the pro-rights movement. Just a friendly word of advice, I've seen enough people burn out in these efforts in many states.

vmathis12019 · Feb 18, 2008

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You need to calm yourself down then. I'm concerned with the legality, not policy.

First of all, don't flatter yourself. I can assure you that your post, though idiotic and unsolicited, was not what had my "anger gland overworked" that day.

You say you are concerned with legality and not policy huh? Well, when enrolling in a university, you join an implicit contract to follow the student code of conduct on pain of academic sanction. In every state besides Utah, carry is either outlawed by code or prohibited by policy. These policies are not just "suggestions." They MUST be followed. I don't know about you, but the idea of me being expelled from school is a pretty serious one. In the State of Alabama, there is no code explicitly keeping colleges from banning licensed carry. This means, that their actions are NOT illegal in doing so. What we have here, is not as cut and dry as you would like to imagine. We have contradictory laws that are misunderstood and misinterpreted by EVERYONE.

You may not be committing a crime when you carry on campus in AL, but neither will the University when it kicks you out!

Jared · Feb 18, 2008

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vmathis12019 wrote:

You need to calm yourself down then. I'm concerned with the legality, not policy.

Click to expand...

First of all, don't flatter yourself. I can assure you that your post, though idiotic and unsolicited, was not what had my "anger gland overworked" that day.

You say you are concerned with legality and not policy huh? Well, when enrolling in a university, you join an implicit contract to follow the student code of conduct on pain of academic sanction. In every state besides Utah, carry is either outlawed by code or prohibited by policy. These policies are not just "suggestions." They MUST be followed. I don't know about you, but the idea of me being expelled from school is a pretty serious one. In the State of Alabama, there is no code explicitly keeping colleges from banning licensed carry. This means, that their actions are NOT illegal in doing so. What we have here, is not as cut and dry as you would like to imagine. We have contradictory laws that are misunderstood and misinterpreted by EVERYONE.

You may not be committing a crime when you carry on campus in AL, but neither will the University when it kicks you out!

If it's not illegal, then it's legal. Your are confusing a very clear cut concept. Alabama has preemption over pistols and the legislature makes law. The only time someone other than thelegislature can make law is when the legislature grants them the power to do so. If the Alabama legislature has not done this, then it is not illegal. The school can make you sign whateverthey want, did you sign it under penalty of law?

Alabama's laws are not complicated at all. Have you ever skimmed through the ATF's annual publication of gunlaws (includes many from each state)? Alabama is about as easy to understand as Hawaii, Rhode Island, New Hampshire.

California and the Commonwealth of Mass have some complicated laws. Reading California's laws even gives me a headache. Alabama's gun laws for the most part are on the same reading level of The Cat In the Hat.

While getting the school to change their policy through persuasion or legislation is a noble idea, I'd hate to see people who legally can carry, choose not to because of school policy or be mislead by postings on this forum saying that it's illegal.Unfortunately, with all the school shootings, what your advocating could cost lives in the long run.

Good luck in your efforts but like I said before, people here should not be telling people it is illegal to carry in schools in AL when it is legal with a pistol license. I'd rather have my mentality where someone could be caught legally carrying a concealed pistol (unlikely) and expelled, which they could always sue the school since they are a public accomodation and not private property, which I prefer to your mentality which is if a school shooting happens, you may end up dead because your pistol is in your car because you didn't want to violate policy.

It all really comes down to what is more likely to happen, getting caught legally carrying a concealed pistol, or a school shooting? I don't know the answer to this.

kurtmax_0 · Feb 18, 2008

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I don't think anybody has said it is illegal to carry a firearm onto a university. What will happen is getting expelled (and expelled for a weapons 'charge'), which for a university student is a sentence to blacklisting from every university in the world and most likely wasting all the money you spent towards an education.

Also, Alabama's laws may 'read' like a basic child book, but you also have to factor in court cases and whatnot.

Jared · Feb 18, 2008

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

I don't think anybody has said it is illegal to carry a firearm onto a university. What will happen is getting expelled (and expelled for a weapons 'charge'), which for a university student is a sentence to blacklisting from every university in the world and most likely wasting all the money you spent towards an education.

Also, Alabama's laws may 'read' like a basic child book, but you also have to factor in court cases and whatnot.

You guys in Alabama are very lucky, you guys have some of the most favorable gun court cases and some very favorable Attorney General opinions. You guys have A LOT to work with down there. Especially with the open carry issue, you guys have as much case law on your side as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has to work with.

Speaking of open carry, if some of you guys are worried about having to fight a possible permit revocation, I would recommend that perhaps someone from a neighboring state be the people to fight it, no sheriff can revoke a New Hamsphire or Florida license

Check out the Oregon and Washington pages on this site for more info but you have a lot to work with since Alabama is a one party consent state in regards to audio and video recording.

kurtmax_0 · Feb 19, 2008

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Unfortunately I need to be a resident of Alabama to get in-state tuition. After I graduate (if.. heh) I'll probably get a permit from TN....

HungSquirrel · Feb 19, 2008

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Speaking of open carry, if some of you guys are worried about having to fight a possible permit revocation, I would recommend that perhaps someone from a neighboring state be the people to fight it, no sheriff can revoke a New Hamsphire or Florida license

That's a GREAT idea! I don't know why I didn't think about it. Now we just have to wait for volunteers...

astro_wanabe · Mar 5, 2008

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to vmathis12019:

Hey, I've been recently approved as the campus leader at the University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH). I haven't really had time to do anything past sending a letter to the president yet (and not getting a reply...). Any ways, just saying hi, not sure if we've met on the SCCC Facebookforums yet. Since SCCC hasn't updated their list of campus leaders yet, here's my contact info:

Phillip Dingus

astro_wanabe@yahoo.com

Our policy banning the possesion of firearms, ammunition, pyrotechnics, etc. has an "except as expressly authorized by the University" clause, and I asked the pres if the Administration would authorize Pistol Permit holders to carry, but as noted have yet to receive a reply.

BillMCyrus · Mar 12, 2008

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Actually from what I gather, when on campus property the university's rules are applicable as law. More so, if you happened to get your CCW in Tuscaloosa county as I did, it's printed on the back of the license as a stipulation--by specific condition of that sheriff, carrying concealed on campus isn't within the allowable scope of the law if it isn't allowed by your permit. As for other counties I don't know.

BillMCyrus · Mar 12, 2008

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Actually from what I gather, when on campus property the university's rules are applicable as law. More so, if you happened to get your CCW in Tuscaloosa county as I did, it's printed on the back of the license as a stipulation--by specific condition of that sheriff, carrying concealed on campus isn't within the allowable scope of the law if it isn't allowed by your permit. As for other counties I don't know.

BillMCyrus · Mar 12, 2008

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Actually from what I gather, when on campus property the university's rules are applicable as law. More so, if you happened to get your CCW in Tuscaloosa county as I did, it's printed on the back of the license as a stipulation--by specific condition of that sheriff, carrying concealed on campus isn't within the allowable scope of the law if it isn't allowed by your permit. As for other counties I don't know.

SCCC: Time to put or shut up fellas.

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