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Thread: i was arrested :O

  1. #1
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    arrested = in posession of police...

    My bro and i just got over the cold today, so were still feelin pretty sick. we wanted to get some chicken from walmart, so we went... i had my glock and U.S. Border Patrol hat on. were paying for it... and from behind, someones arm pops out and a police I.D. is showing for just a quick sec, so i couldnt catch a name. he tells me its illegal to opencarry. i said "no it isnt" he told me it was a misdemeanor to carry because it scares people, so i said "who was i scaring? i dont see people running around yelling" he told me it scared HIM. so i understood. but i still tried to inform him that it is LEGAL for anyone over 18 to OC a handgun. he still disagrees. "ive been a police officer for 13 years and have been teaching it also." he said. so i told him i wanted to talk to him outside about it. a few minutes later, he walks outside, he called payson PD. i ask him for his name and badge # and he doesnt give it to me, he tells me "youll get it in a minute" (i never got it, which is ILLEGAL on his part) 4 copcars show up. they ask me why i wear a border patrol hat... i told them "im a minuteman, we DO patrol the border" "well, do you have any I.D. proving that you do? do you work for the government?" "no, because any citizen can do it" "what border may that be?" the mexican border." (they walk away for 20 minutes trying to think of what to charge me with) some officer walks up to me and asks me to raise my hands, so he can remove my pistol, but before he does, he asked if it was loaded, to which i replied "no". he checks it, and plays with it behind the car, while speaking with officers. then he walks up agreeing with me, that OC is legal, and that i probably wont listen or agree with him... but OCing is a bad idea (whoa he sure knows me! ) after the 20 minutes of the officers speaking, they come over to me and tell me that im totally within the law... but the hat is questionable, so they will ask an attourney, and they tell me i shouldnt wear it. and before i walked away, another cop said "do you have any backing before you draw your weapon to use it?" "what do you mean? draw it upon someone whos trying to kill me?" "yes" "ofcorse, its called my lawyer" (i didnt say anything in a smart-ass way, but i was very professional and i probably suprised them at how much i knew) but now i want to complain to provo P.D. and tell them that one of their off duty officers was telling me i was breakining the law when i actually wasnt (he was making up laws) then he wouldnt give me his name or badge number. (illegal much?) oh, and i found out hes a provo P.D. because i asked toe payson P.D. who he was.



    i wasnt charged with anything, i proved that ignorant provo P.D. wrong

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    just called provo P.D. to complain... a higherup will be calling me soon (idk what position, but its higher up lol)

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    got a response from them... SGT. Jensen of Provo (strange huh!) understood the laws, and i didnt have enough info on the officer (who was off duty) to get him introuble... ALSO, he said that officers DONT HAVE TO GIVE ME THEIR INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ... someone tell me if this is true or not

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    P.S. at first i called kevin about 10 times, then i called clark aposhian, and nobody answered... then i called tucker, and he was a great help he and his friends were really supportive of me and helped me research the laws



    thanks for the support guys!!!!!!!

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    WOW! Sorry to hear about this and everything turned out ok for ya. As far as I know if you ask a Police Officer his name and badge number, they should supply that to you.

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    That was a detention. An arrest is when they put cuffs on so tight you have a permanent scar on your wrist, they threaten to "beat the **** out of you" while you're cuffed, you get shipped to jail, and then they prefer whatever ******** charge suits them after letting you stew for 24 hours. This one cop sounds like a toad, but it might have been much worse.

    -ljp

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    In the State of Utah I understand that they are NOT required to provide their info:?. I have been told this myself by a WVC Sgt.



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    TJ is right, they need not supply it to us... P.S. badge #'s are somethin made up in movies :/ (from what the sgt told me on the phone) but everything worked out, and i just had to prove that provo officer wrong



    HOWEVER GUYS!....

    ANY of us can be arrested and charged if people call the police and complain! if we raise an alarm to people, we can be charged this scares the **** out of me

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    doublepost*

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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    TJ is right, they need not supply it to us... P.S. badge #'s are somethin made up in movies :/ (from what the sgt told me on the phone) but everything worked out, and i just had to prove that provo officer wrong



    HOWEVER GUYS!....

    ANY of us can be arrested and charged if people call the police and complain! if we raise an alarm to people, we can be charged this scares the **** out of me
    By the way, they might not have badge numbers, but they might have unit numbers. Those unit numbers would be on their badges. Hopefully not, but he could have just be playing the semantics game with you. Trust me, that is not something, "made up in the movies".

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    Hey guys, ... been listening in for a while, but have to comment about some things being said here.

    It was mentioned:

    "That was a detention. An arrest is when they put cuffs on so tight you have a permanent scar on your wrist, they threaten to "beat the **** out of you" while you're cuffed, you get shipped to jail, and then they prefer whatever ******** charge suits them after letting you stew for 24 hours. This one cop sounds like a toad, but it might have been much worse."

    -ljp
    You are correct here, but officially, it is an Arrest. I had an officer accused of 'attempted kidnapping' because he didn't know the difference.

    It's a simple question really, "Am I under Arrest?" The officer should say "Yes" if they are acting in the capacity of an officer. You then have the opportunity to exercise your right to remain silent, or spill all to those who will use it against you.

    If the officer sais "No", then you simply ask, "Then am I free to leave?". Once the officer sais "No", then you have started building your case.

    This isn't an issue of revenge or trying to break the law, it is a matter of the constitution of both the state of Utah and the united States.

    We are the people, they are the servants. If you do not keep them in their place, they will walk all over you. Which brings me to the second comment made here,
    "In the State of Utah I understand that they are NOT required to provide their info:?. I have been told this myself by a WVC Sgt."
    This is incorrect. They are public servants, and when asked, they are required to give it. Don't rely on the Worst Valley City police to give you correct information.

    Has anyone bothered tofind out the oath the officers take when graduating from POST ?? Or the oath of a commissioned officer ?? How about a municipalJudge ??

    "ANY of us can be arrested and charged if people call the police and complain! if we raise an alarm to people, we can be charged this scares the **** out of me"


    Question, ... charged with what ??You have to realize, when 9-1-1 is called, the police are required to investigate, regardless of whether there is a threat or not. For some people, just seeing a firearm will create alarm. You have to expect this, especially when carrying for the world to see. Your job is not to depend on the public for permission to carry, your job is to know the rules, and make sure your public servants are abiding by the rules.

    Ultimately, the reason you are carrying is to challenge the public and the law enforcement. Sure you use the constitution to support your motives, and rightly so. You have the right, the competency, and the training (hopefully).But ultimately, you are creating the challenge. Expect the attention, respect the attention, use the attention, but don't abuse the attention.


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    well said

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    You are being detained if you are not free to leave, or if a reasonable person in the same situation would believe they are not free to leave. The police can only detain you if they have reasonable articuable suspicion that you have previously, are currently, or are about to commit a crime. (google ‘Terry stop’) The officer must be able to verbalize what law he believes you are violating in order to legally detain you. (For example, “I am detaining you for suspicion of public urination.”)

    In any OC encounter with the police, the first words out of your mouth should be, “Am I being detained?” Everything else hinges on his answer to that question. Don’t let him distract you by asking some inane question instead of answering; if he does, ask again. Why you need a gun, why you’re carrying a gun openly, etc., are not police business.

    If he says no, you are not being detained, either walk away or stay and chat; it’s your choice. However, anything you say should be considered diarrhea of the mouth. He’ll tell you OC is a bad idea etc etc. You’re preaching to whatever is the opposite of the choir. You won’t change his mind so what’s the point?

    If he says yes, that you are being detained, immediately ask, “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?” If carrying a firearm openly is not a crime where you live, then his response of “Because you’re carrying a gun” is insufficient as a reason. It may turn out that his detaining you has nothing to do with your firearm, maybe you parked on an old lady or something, so now is a good time to find out. If you are being detained, the only reason he is talking to you is to try to discover enough information to move to the next step, arrest. You should have stopped talking by now.

    Detentions are based on ‘reasonable articuable suspicion a crime is afoot, and are used for investigation

    Arrest is based on probable cause that you have broken a law.

    EDIT: At all times be exceedingly polite!




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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    he asked if it was loaded, to which i replied "no".
    Sorry to hear it happened, but I'm curious about this bit, you carry without it being loaded or without it being charged/cocked/ready-to-fire?
    -Unrequited

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    In Utah, without a Concealed Firearm Permit, a firearm must be carried unloaded. According to Utah's definitions, this means a full magazine, with an empty chamber.

    76-10-502
    .
    When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Gotcha. Israeli carry.
    -Unrequited

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    Hangman wrote:
    Hey guys, ... been listening in for a while, but have to comment about some things being said here.

    It was mentioned:

    "That was a detention. An arrest is when they put cuffs on so tight you have a permanent scar on your wrist, they threaten to "beat the **** out of you" while you're cuffed, you get shipped to jail, and then they prefer whatever ******** charge suits them after letting you stew for 24 hours. This one cop sounds like a toad, but it might have been much worse."

    -ljp
    You are correct here, but officially, it is an Arrest. I had an officer accused of 'attempted kidnapping' because he didn't know the difference.

    It's a simple question really, "Am I under Arrest?" The officer should say "Yes" if they are acting in the capacity of an officer. You then have the opportunity to exercise your right to remain silent, or spill all to those who will use it against you.

    If the officer sais "No", then you simply ask, "Then am I free to leave?". Once the officer sais "No", then you have started building your case.

    This isn't an issue of revenge or trying to break the law, it is a matter of the constitution of both the state of Utah and the united States.

    We are the people, they are the servants. If you do not keep them in their place, they will walk all over you. Which brings me to the second comment made here,
    "In the State of Utah I understand that they are NOT required to provide their info:?. I have been told this myself by a WVC Sgt."
    This is incorrect. They are public servants, and when asked, they are required to give it. Don't rely on the Worst Valley City police to give you correct information.

    Has anyone bothered tofind out the oath the officers take when graduating from POST ?? Or the oath of a commissioned officer ?? How about a municipalJudge ??

    "ANY of us can be arrested and charged if people call the police and complain! if we raise an alarm to people, we can be charged this scares the **** out of me"


    Question, ... charged with what ??You have to realize, when 9-1-1 is called, the police are required to investigate, regardless of whether there is a threat or not. For some people, just seeing a firearm will create alarm. You have to expect this, especially when carrying for the world to see. Your job is not to depend on the public for permission to carry, your job is to know the rules, and make sure your public servants are abiding by the rules.

    Ultimately, the reason you are carrying is to challenge the public and the law enforcement. Sure you use the constitution to support your motives, and rightly so. You have the right, the competency, and the training (hopefully).But ultimately, you are creating the challenge. Expect the attention, respect the attention, use the attention, but don't abuse the attention.
    What you say sounded good, however you're wrong... theyre NOT required, in the state of Utah, to show us their badge. And we would be charged with raising alarm, from what the police told me.

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    What you say sounded good, however you're wrong... theyre NOT required, in the state of Utah, to show us their badge. And we would be charged with raising alarm, from what the police told me.
    They told you that open carry was illegal. Did you believe them?

    They told you that an 19 year old may not posses a handgun. Did you believe them?

    If I bought a police uniform and badge and I told you I was a cop, would you believe me?

    As a public servant, they are required to show identification upon request. Anybody could easily impersonate an officer, and "arrest" you. Wouldn't you want to know that they were in fact an officer of the law?

    And there is no such thing as "raising alarm".


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    FOIA the call and all infromation relating to the local PD being dispatched. You should be able to learn the ID of the off duty adam henry and then pushthe complaint issue with both departments.



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    There is no state law that states an officer must show his ID or even give his name when asked. Some departments may have a policy that states they should, but it's not alaw.

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    I did a quick searchfor something that explains the difference between "detain" and arrest and this is what I found.

    http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/detent.htm


    DETENTION V. ARREST
    A detention is a lesser intrusion upon the individual's privacy than an arrest. But what actually is a detention? A detention, from the word "detain," is a limit on the person's freedom by temporarily preventing his leaving. How much can you "limit" someone before you detain her? Where is the "bright line"? That line that once you cross over it, you have in fact detained someone? Good legal question. There is no definitive answer.
    If a policeman walks up to you on the street and asks, "May I ask you a few questions?", have you been detained? The courts do not all agree on this one. All depends on the circumstances. In one federal case a judge argued in a dissenting opinion that any person of color approached by any white policeman would not feel free to say "no," and would, consequently, be "detained." Generally, the argument is that if you consider that a detention, then you take from the policeman the right of any citizen to ask a simple question of a stranger.
    Consider the importance of the social context to this question. Suppose a man in a dark blue suit walks up to you and asks, "May I ask you a few questions?" in the airport at the site of a plane that has just arrived from Colombia. Are you detained? Do you feel that you can say "no," and walk away? Kind of depends on who you are, doesn't it? So this is a tough question where you have to consider the entire context. Technically, it's a detention if your freedom to walk away has been curtailed.
    Nonetheless, a detention, preventing your leaving, asking you questions, is still much less than arresting you with the consequences that implies. An arrest means you are under official control. You may not leave the area at your will. A pat down search for weapons may be conducted if apparently necessary, and you will be booked. Clearly, the question is one of degree.
    The courts require less substantiation of reasonable grounds to detain than to arrest. The Terry stop, [Terry v. Ohio], is a good example. The grounds the police gave for detaining suspects in Terry were that it was late night in a small shopping center, stores closed, car parked in shopping mall lot, several men standing around the car talking. The court ruled that was sufficient in Terry for the police officer to detain, that is stop the men to ask them for an explanation of their presence there. Those circumstances were not sufficient probable cause for arrest. The importance of this distinction is that once someone is detained they may be so fearful that they will engage in further suspicious behavior, try to run away, lie about their car registration, which police can check, give a false name, which police can also check, all of which may then add up to probable cause for arrest.
    It is important to remember the distinction between detention and arrest when a private citizen arrests another private citizen. Review the requirements for such an arrest. Mere suspicion is not enough. And private citizens have no right to detain.
    There is an interesting derivative of the detention concept that is particularly linked to shoplifting. The merchant, and by extension, his agents, the security guards, are given the right of detention for a reasonable period of time under reasonable circumstances if they have observed someone shoplifting their merchandise. The purpose is to permit quick recovery of their merchandise, and the right to detain is strictly limited. See the concept, merchant's privilege, in this guide.
    In Cervantez v. J.C. Penny Co., Inc. (1979) 24 Cal.3d 579, 156 Cal.Rptr. 198, 595 P.2d 975, the Court discusses the distinction between the merchant's privilege and an arrest:

    "Extension of the privilege to include the right of a merchant to arrest for a misdemeanor upon probable cause would effectively eradicate the clearly intended statutory distinction between the authority of a peace officer and of a private citizen to effect an arrest for a misdemeanor. [Footnote omitted.] It would also upset the delicate balance struck in Collyer [Collyer v. S. H. Kress Co. (1936) 5 Cal.2d 175, 54 P.2d 20] between the individual's right to liberty and the property owner's right to protect his property. A privilege to detain was deemed sufficient to protect the property owner's private interest in preventing the theft of his property (see also People v. Zelinski, supra, 24 Cal.3d at p. 364, 155 Cal.Rptr. 575, 594 P.2d 1000), whereas a privilege to arrest a person who had not in fact committed an offense in the merchant's presence solely on the basis of probable cause would constitute a substantial further encroachment on the individual's right to liberty. . . . "Although the line may at times be a fine one, there is a well-settled distinction in law between an arrest and a detention. A detention is a lesser intrusion upon a person's liberty requiring less cause and consisting of briefly stopping a person for questioning or other limited investigation. (See Dawkins v. City of Los Angeles (1978) 22 Cal.3d 126, 132-135, 148 Cal.Rptr. 857, 583 P.2d 711; In re Tony C. (1978) 21 Cal.3d 888, 892-896, 48 Cal.Rptr. 366, 582 P.2d 957.)"

  22. #22
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    enthusiast is right, and i was told about the police I.D. thing thru a Sergeant of provo PD... interestingly enough, his name was Sgt. Jensen lol

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    Ya'll need to move to Vegas where there are no Communists

  24. #24
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    Ya'll need to move to Vegas where there are no Communists
    HA! Maybe no comunists, but I heard there are guys with guns wearing Ted Nugent style hats. :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    Ya'll need to move to Vegas where there are no Communists
    HA! Maybe no comunists, but I heard there are guys with guns wearing Ted Nugent style hats. :P
    Darn tootin' And plenty of hot waitresses at Outback Steakhouse :shock:

    ask UTOC-45-44about that one

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