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i was arrested :O

Enthusiast

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Aug 17, 2007
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Location
, Utah, USA
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I did a quick searchfor something that explains the difference between "detain" and arrest and this is what I found.

http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/detent.htm


DETENTION V. ARREST
A detention is a lesser intrusion upon the individual's privacy than an arrest. But what actually is a detention? A detention, from the word "detain," is a limit on the person's freedom by temporarily preventing his leaving. How much can you "limit" someone before you detain her? Where is the "bright line"? That line that once you cross over it, you have in fact detained someone? Good legal question. There is no definitive answer.
If a policeman walks up to you on the street and asks, "May I ask you a few questions?", have you been detained? The courts do not all agree on this one. All depends on the circumstances. In one federal case a judge argued in a dissenting opinion that any person of color approached by any white policeman would not feel free to say "no," and would, consequently, be "detained." Generally, the argument is that if you consider that a detention, then you take from the policeman the right of any citizen to ask a simple question of a stranger.
Consider the importance of the social context to this question. Suppose a man in a dark blue suit walks up to you and asks, "May I ask you a few questions?" in the airport at the site of a plane that has just arrived from Colombia. Are you detained? Do you feel that you can say "no," and walk away? Kind of depends on who you are, doesn't it? So this is a tough question where you have to consider the entire context. Technically, it's a detention if your freedom to walk away has been curtailed.
Nonetheless, a detention, preventing your leaving, asking you questions, is still much less than arresting you with the consequences that implies. An arrest means you are under official control. You may not leave the area at your will. A pat down search for weapons may be conducted if apparently necessary, and you will be booked. Clearly, the question is one of degree.
The courts require less substantiation of reasonable grounds to detain than to arrest. The Terry stop, [Terry v. Ohio], is a good example. The grounds the police gave for detaining suspects in Terry were that it was late night in a small shopping center, stores closed, car parked in shopping mall lot, several men standing around the car talking. The court ruled that was sufficient in Terry for the police officer to detain, that is stop the men to ask them for an explanation of their presence there. Those circumstances were not sufficient probable cause for arrest. The importance of this distinction is that once someone is detained they may be so fearful that they will engage in further suspicious behavior, try to run away, lie about their car registration, which police can check, give a false name, which police can also check, all of which may then add up to probable cause for arrest.
It is important to remember the distinction between detention and arrest when a private citizen arrests another private citizen. Review the requirements for such an arrest. Mere suspicion is not enough. And private citizens have no right to detain.
There is an interesting derivative of the detention concept that is particularly linked to shoplifting. The merchant, and by extension, his agents, the security guards, are given the right of detention for a reasonable period of time under reasonable circumstances if they have observed someone shoplifting their merchandise. The purpose is to permit quick recovery of their merchandise, and the right to detain is strictly limited. See the concept, merchant's privilege, in this guide.
In Cervantez v. J.C. Penny Co., Inc. (1979) 24 Cal.3d 579, 156 Cal.Rptr. 198, 595 P.2d 975, the Court discusses the distinction between the merchant's privilege and an arrest:

"Extension of the privilege to include the right of a merchant to arrest for a misdemeanor upon probable cause would effectively eradicate the clearly intended statutory distinction between the authority of a peace officer and of a private citizen to effect an arrest for a misdemeanor. [Footnote omitted.] It would also upset the delicate balance struck in Collyer [Collyer v. S. H. Kress Co. (1936) 5 Cal.2d 175, 54 P.2d 20] between the individual's right to liberty and the property owner's right to protect his property. A privilege to detain was deemed sufficient to protect the property owner's private interest in preventing the theft of his property (see also People v. Zelinski, supra, 24 Cal.3d at p. 364, 155 Cal.Rptr. 575, 594 P.2d 1000), whereas a privilege to arrest a person who had not in fact committed an offense in the merchant's presence solely on the basis of probable cause would constitute a substantial further encroachment on the individual's right to liberty. . . . "Although the line may at times be a fine one, there is a well-settled distinction in law between an arrest and a detention. A detention is a lesser intrusion upon a person's liberty requiring less cause and consisting of briefly stopping a person for questioning or other limited investigation. (See Dawkins v. City of Los Angeles (1978) 22 Cal.3d 126, 132-135, 148 Cal.Rptr. 857, 583 P.2d 711; In re Tony C. (1978) 21 Cal.3d 888, 892-896, 48 Cal.Rptr. 366, 582 P.2d 957.)"​
 

b1ack5mith

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Jul 13, 2007
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Payson, Utah, USA
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enthusiast is right, and i was told about the police I.D. thing thru a Sergeant of provo PD... interestingly enough, his name was Sgt. Jensen lol
 

b1ack5mith

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Jul 13, 2007
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LOL im more of a chicken person myself... (SORRY! im from california...) speaking of california, have you guys noticed how alot of utahns SUCK at driving!? i mean its a gamble for your life to go get a gallon of milk from smiths LOL!
 

Kevin Jensen

State Researcher
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Feb 23, 2007
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Location
Santaquin, Utah, USA
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We're not shitty drivers, it's just that the people from Kalifornia can't figure it out!

Here are a few tips...

1. If you are in the "fast lane" and some body in front of you is speeding, honk at them! They are not speeding fast enough.

2. Disable your turn signals, they are not needed here.

3. Stay in the "fast lane" until the last possibe second before you exit the freeway. Dart from the fast lane to the exit and cut everyone off.

4. The HOV lane is really just a passing lane. (See rule 1) That double line and white diamond mean nothing.

5. When you see a cop or accident on the side of the road, lock up your brakes and stare at the pretty flashing lights.
 

massltca

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Oct 31, 2006
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407
Location
Maryville, Tennessee, USA
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Enthusiast wrote:
There is no state law that states an officer must show his ID or even give his name when asked. Some departments may have a policy that states they should, but it's not alaw.
There should be. How are you supposed to know if they are actually police officers if they refuse to show ID. Especially if they aren't in uniform. People have been robbed and killed by individuals posing as cops.
 

karnak

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I'm new to this board, but I have had a CCP in Utah, and currently hold an Oregon CCP. I remember something intersting, from my college Utah Criminal Code classes, that may or may not be apllicable today. Back then (20 years ago) Utah had some BS law that made it illegal to wear any insignia to which you were not entitled. Which means that, technically, if you wore something as innocuous as a BYU ring and hadn't graduated from BYU, then you were in violation of that law. The Border Patrol hat, with the federal LE emblem could have easily fallen into that category (which is probably why the question was asked, but the bozo that asked it couldn't recall the obscure statute). Anyway, the issue here is open carry, not hats, badges or other insignia. I mainly OC when traveling through Nevada, since they don't recognize my CCP. I can see both sides of the OC issue:
  • Yes, OC does promote familiarity, which psychologists refer to as "desensitization" - which, in theory, means that the more you're exposed to something that makes you uncomfortable, eventually you will become less uncomfortable.
  • Many people are uncomfortable around firearms, even when they are displayed in a case. And they become especially uncomfortable when guns are being carried on the hip of somebody that isn't wearing a badge.
  • The fact that a gun is in plain sight should be somewhat reassuring to people, as opposed to one that may have just peeked out from under somebody's jacket. Most evil doers aren't going to be displaying their weapons until the moment they bring them into play (criminals may be stupid, but they generally like the element of surprise on their side).
I was stopped once, for excessive speed, when driving from UT to OR through NV, with concealed weapons in my glove comparment. I informed the NV trooper immediately that I had a CCP, and two loaded handguns in my glove compartment. He asked to see the CCP, which I provided to him, and basically he said have a nice day, and sent me on my way.

My personal experience with LE is that they normally treat you with as much, if not more, respect than you show them. But, some of them don't like getting into long, tedious discussions when their shift is coming to a close. Perhaps that's something worth keeping in mind ...
 

RockyMtnScotsman

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Jan 8, 2008
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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" ... but the hat is questionable, so they will ask an attourney, and they tell me i shouldnt wear it. "

This reminds me of an encounter I had several years ago. I was wearing a Marine Corps Sniper Team t-shirt and was questioned by a redneck about my time in the Corps. When I told him that I wasn't a member of the sniper team, he got all huffy and said "you shouldn't wear it if you're not entitled". I simply nodded to the Denver Bronco's hat on his head and said "so what position do you play?". Naturally he had to have it explained to him which I finished up with a basic STFU.
 

BB62

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b1ack5smith,

If I may ask you, please use correct punctuation and capitalization. It would make your posts much easier to read.

Keep us posted.
 

timf343

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Oct 3, 2007
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Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
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massltca wrote:
There should be. How are you supposed to know if they are actually police officers if they refuse to show ID. Especially if they aren't in uniform. People have been robbed and killed by individuals posing as cops.
HEARSAY follows

I have heard that some home invasions include the criminal yelling SEARCH WARRANT to reduce the chances of being shot by an armed homeowner. Sounds like a pretty damn smart thing to say if you ask me.


FANTASY CRIME follows

Man 1
Excuse me sir, Officer Smith, may I speak with you for a few moments?

Man 2
I guess, can I see your ID.

Man 1
I don't have to show you my ID, I'm the police. Let me see your ID.

Man 2
Oh, I didn't know that, I'm sorry. Let me get my wallet out.

Man 1
<grabs wallet and runs>
 

massltca

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Location
Maryville, Tennessee, USA
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timf343 wrote:
massltca wrote:
There should be. How are you supposed to know if they are actually police officers if they refuse to show ID. Especially if they aren't in uniform. People have been robbed and killed by individuals posing as cops.
HEARSAY follows

I have heard that some home invasions include the criminal yelling SEARCH WARRANT to reduce the chances of being shot by an armed homeowner. Sounds like a pretty damn smart thing to say if you ask me.


FANTASY CRIME follows

Man 1
Excuse me sir, Officer Smith, may I speak with you for a few moments?

Man 2
I guess, can I see your ID.

Man 1
I don't have to show you my ID, I'm the police. Let me see your ID.

Man 2
Oh, I didn't know that, I'm sorry. Let me get my wallet out.

Man 1
<grabs wallet and runs>
All the more reason to end the practice of legal home invasion, but I digress. I still say the out of uniform police officers should be required to produce ID. We had several robberies in Greenfield MA a few years ago by an individual posing as an undercover cop. He had a red light on the dashboard of his truckand would pull people over and rob them. So if the officer is out of uniform how do know if they are legitimate or not?
 

Uraijit

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Provo cops DO indeed have badge numbers. I was pulled over in Provo by an officer, who, long story short, forgot to actually give me the ticket after I signed it.

After several calls to the PD, I ended up with his name, badge number, and incident number. The officer called me back the next time he was on shift, and admitted that he still had the ticket, and offered to bring it by my house (how kind of him). I didn't live in Provo, and he was on shift, so he couldn't really just drop it off, so he offered to just tear it up.

I kept all of the information just incase he "forgot" to tear it up, and I somehow end up with a warrant over a stupid fix-it-ticket...

But yeah, they DO have "badge numbers". Or "unit numbers" on their badges. The Provo dispatcher that I spoke with referred to it as a "badge number" when I asked for it though...

Sounds like they're trying to just brush you off. I'd go in in person and file a complaint. Like others have said, get the 911 call. It's public record, and you have a right to get a copy of it.

It might not be the law that they show you their badge, here in Utah, but if someone starts talking to me like they're a cop, I'm not doing jack squat for them, until they prove they are who they say they are.

It'd be a pretty easy court case to win.
 

Strict Constructionist

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Westminster, ,
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Mainsail wrote:
You are being detained if you are not free to leave, or if a reasonable person in the same situation would believe they are not free to leave. The police can only detain you if they have reasonable articuable suspicion that you have previously, are currently, or are about to commit a crime. (google ‘Terry stop’) The officer must be able to verbalize what law he believes you are violating in order to legally detain you. (For example, “I am detaining you for suspicion of public urination.”)

This might not be entirely true now. Brendlin v California creates tension with Terry v Ohio, and given that Brendlin was decided in 2007, and Terry was in 1968 it should have more weight.
 
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