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Thread: Definition of Open Carry

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    Here's the question... My wife and I own a retail establishment and choose to protect ourselves, our customers and our investment by carrying concealled at all times. We have our CCW permits and respect the laws of the Commonwealth (despite our disagreement with some of them). We always face a challenge at the end of one of those 12 hour days when, tired and hungry, we just want to grab a bite to eat at Applebee's, Glory Days or Chilli's, etc... This means transition to OC, and the challenge I face.

    You see, I carry a Custom CDP using a Cross Breed Supertuck Inside the waist band holster (a great concealment holster by the way). I've been simply untucking my shirt and exposingthe portion of the weapon above the waist band (grip, hammer, beaver tail, sights and safety). So does this constitue open carry?

    I've been taught over the years that OC meant that in or out of a holster, the entire profile of the gun needs to be exposed.

    So, if anyone has a legal reference, well informed opinion, smart comment, or anything else that might be helpful for helping me meet the intent of the law of the Commonwealth of Virginia, I'd be appreciative...

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    ยง 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.



    Emphasis added for clarity...

    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    That specific language is what I'm wrestling with, and I believe written as such to provide legal interpretation. I'm hoping to find someone with personal experience or someone familiar with legal precedence addressing a weapon tucked in the waist band. If having just the butt exposed that clearly conveys that its a 1911, is that good enough?

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    The_Side_of_Good wrote:
    That specific language is what I'm wrestling with, and I believe written as such to provide legal interpretation. I'm hoping to find someone with personal experience or someone familiar with legal precedence addressing a weapon tucked in the waist band. If having just the butt exposed that clearly conveys that its a 1911, is that good enough?
    Yes.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Is it observable?

    Is it's true nature disguised?

    If someone observed the gun would they say, "hmmm, that guy has a gun or hmmm, what the hell is that?

    Get an outside the waistband holster.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Thanks for the reply... I prefer to use a Yaqui Slider for both OC and CC, but have become more reliant on the IWB holster for some situations. Since we own a retail business and must rely on a narrow sector of society, I continue to balance my right to self-protection against the pompus indignation of the sheeple that frequent our establishment. The IWB allows me to do both. Now I'm trying to figure out the easiest way to use it and still be able to exercise my rights.

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    I'm curious, this question is posed to VAopencarry and Roscoe,what wasyouexperience OC'ing with an inside the waistband holster? Were you questioned by law enforcement as to weather you have a CWP while wearing an inside the waistband holster? I OC 100% with a belt/paddle holster and 100% visibility. I've often wondered if I'd be harassed with an inside the waistband holster with butt exposed. To avoid a weapons charge from a ticky-tacky LEO I've always used an exposed holster. Again, just curious, I have no intention of busting chops.

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    I'm curious, this question is posed to VAopencarry and Roscoe,what wasyouexperience OC'ing with an inside the waistband holster? Were you questioned by law enforcement as to weather you have a CWP while wearing an inside the waistband holster? I OC 100% with a belt/paddle holster and 100% visibility. I've often wondered if I'd be harassed with an inside the waistband holster with butt exposed. To avoid a weapons charge from a ticky-tacky LEO I've always used an exposed holster. Again, just curious, I have no intention of busting chops

    If the butt is exposed you are not trying to hide it's true nature.

    I fully OC -- So not IWB holster.

    I'm in that area (Culpeper)-- Have not been in Champs -- Are they cool with OC?



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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    I'm curious, this question is posed to VAopencarry and Roscoe,what wasyouexperience OC'ing with an inside the waistband holster? Were you questioned by law enforcement as to weather you have a CWP while wearing an inside the waistband holster? I OC 100% with a belt/paddle holster and 100% visibility. I've often wondered if I'd be harassed with an inside the waistband holster with butt exposed. To avoid a weapons charge from a ticky-tacky LEO I've always used an exposed holster. Again, just curious, I have no intention of busting chops.
    When I OC it is with my IWB holster and I haven't had an issue. But I generally conceal anyway.

    I always ensure that you can clearly see anything that wouldn't be covered by the holster. because, if you think about it, isn't the holster concealing the barrel of the gun anyway if you were OWB?

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    I'm curious, this question is posed to VAopencarry and Roscoe,what wasyouexperience OC'ing with an inside the waistband holster? Were you questioned by law enforcement as to weather you have a CWP while wearing an inside the waistband holster? I OC 100% with a belt/paddle holster and 100% visibility. I've often wondered if I'd be harassed with an inside the waistband holster with butt exposed. To avoid a weapons charge from a ticky-tacky LEO I've always used an exposed holster. Again, just curious, I have no intention of busting chops.
    What would the charge be? If Officer Friendly can tell it's a gun then it is not hidden from common from observation and it's true nature is not disguised!!!Refer to the above definition of Common Observation/Concealment!! If it does not apply then you are OC'ing. Don't overthink it.

    I do not carry IWB.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    I don't have a CHP, so the charge from a LEO could be concealment. Just the hassle of going to court because of a LEO's mis-interpretation of the code is enough to deter me from partially covering my gun. It's just my paranoia. Point taken the, holster conceals part ofthe firearm, but itcould be interpreted as part of the firearm(ie., magazine)because it's what holds it your body. I'll have to try it myself with an IWB. Thanks for the response.

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