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Thread: Chesterfield explosion - OT

  1. #1
    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    Here in central VA today a man is dead following an explosion at his home. Early indications are that he was a civil war relic collector and speculation is that some ordnance that he had recovered exploded killing him.

    Full story by the local news here: http://www.nbc12.com/news/state/15737917.html

    Can anyone please tell me under what authority the police have to evacuate a neighborhood and force people to stay away from their homes overnight? What specific statue authorizes them to remove people from their homes (with or without) an identified threat where your presence in your own home does not constitute a danger to their activities?

    I don't buy the "Its for your safety" bunk. If its for my safety, I get to choose whether I want it or not.



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    Well my thoughts on the matter is that they might have to go through the whole house slowly and carefully to check for any other possible explosives and that is why they are evacuating everybody from their homes seeing as the cannonball fragment traveled quite a bit.

    I would think that they would set up some kind of temporary shelter for the people until they are done with their work and not saying tough sh*t but you got to find a place to stay because we don't feel like helping out anymore then we have to.

    Can't give you any specific laws or anything due to the fact that I am slowly trying to learn VA law myself.

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    My understanding is that you can be asked to leave (abandon) your property but that you can't be forced to leave your property. You can be left with the understanding that aid will NOT come if you request it at a later time and that you are 'on your own'.

    Responders would note your name/address and how many persons are in your structure so they'd know the body count if you perish. But, outside of negotiation if your not in a fixed structure (like an apartment in an apartment building fire) they can't do jack to remove you.

    I'm not a lawyer but anytime you hear about mass emergencies you always here abotu people that decide to ride it out even after evacuation orders.

    This obviously doesn't count Martial Law being declared by the Governor or the President. But, in anything I've seen from FEMA about Incident's I've seen it noted that if a person declines to leave, you note the information and advise Incident Command that civilians are holed up in an area and refuse to leave. That way after recovery efforts are made, IC can check to see if they made it.

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    I work Fire & Rescue and this is an interesting question, I have had to go door to door in the middle of the night and ask people to leave due to Hazmat incidents on interstate. I have never had any one give me a problem and everyone was nice about it. I wouldn't have tried to drag anyone out if they had refused though.

    On another incident (Hazmat) several miles of road were closed during the day and NO one got by the road block, lots of angry residents were directed to shelters and the police had to be at both sides of the road block due to the angy people, lots were worried about pets and I can understand that. Still not sure of the authorityor laws involved to keep people away from their home.



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    'Hazardous' materials such as propane tanks and snakes were cited by Isle of Palms, SC Mayor Carmen Bunch when she ordered the SCARNG to shoot residents trying to swim the ICW to see their homes abandoned in the face of Hurricane Huge. Shots were fired Lots of people will not leave their homes as response to thse events.

    HAZMAT is equivalent to 'unsafe materials' in the "safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety" aphorism. HAZMAT is mumbo jumbo by ignorant conspirators. It's OK to explain to folks that they will die if they stay but one error or exaggeration and credibility is erased. One Aww-schitt wipes out a thousand atta-boys. Kind'a like hurricane evacuation orders.

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    Fairly often around here mandatory evacuation orders are given for certain areas for hurricanes. You do not have to leave but if you leave they can block you from going back in. If you refuse to leave they will require your name and next of kin. The worse are those that refuse to leave and then when it gets bad start calling for help to evacuate and putting others in danger. I have had several Police Chiefs tell me that as long as you provide your name, next of kin and understand the dangers and that there will be no help after it gets bad that they will go no further in trying to make you leave.

    Just like Harry Truman on Mt. St. Helens, he went like he wanted to. After Hugo hit I was talking to some fellows that rode it out on John's Island. I asked if they would do it again and they said "Not No but Hell No!".:what:

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    PT111 wrote:
    If you refuse to leave they will require your name and next of kin
    " 'They' will require your name..." Who, FEMA JBT?

    Where have we heard this before, LEO666, sockpuppet? Ya' miss all the looong discussions of when and who and under what circumstances ID may be required?

    WTF bother

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    If you refuse to leave they will require your name and next of kin
    " 'They' will require your name..." Who, FEMA JBT?

    Where have we heard this before, LEO666, sockpuppet? Ya' miss all the looong discussions of when and who and under what circumstances ID may be required?

    WTF bother
    Normally the police but I have seen the National Guard doing it. When a mandantory evacuation is declared by the Govenorit is the same as Marshall Law. Yes they can haul your butt off to jail and let you fight it out in court later but since they normally don't have time to mess with idiots proclaiming their rights to be killed they don't do that. No FEMA doesn't get there until after it hits so they don't care who you are or who your next of kin is unless you want money.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    If you refuse to leave they will require your name and next of kin
    " 'They' will require your name..." Who, FEMA JBT?

    Where have we heard this before, LEO666, sockpuppet? Ya' miss all the looong discussions of when and who and under what circumstances ID may be required?

    WTF bother
    I think I brought in the dreaded word...FEMA. For part of my training in the Virginia Defense Force, we were indoctrinated in the teachings of how FEMA conducts Incident Response and how we as responders are to conduct ourselves. The jist of the documentation shows that you try to encourage people to leave but if they don't thats fine. Note as much information as you can and then report it on up the chain of command.

    In no way does the documentation show that we would ask people to show their papers (I'd quit in a heartbeat) or such. In any case, the VaDF can't forcibly remove anyone by force of arms because the VaDF isn't armed.

    My bad in bringing up the word FEMA. I only interjected it in so much as to point out all the documentation I've read thus far says leave the person be, document, and push the information up the chain.

    Sorry if I confused things.



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    Xeni, you confused nothing. I 'trained' with the Mt. Pleasant PD and Charleston Co. SO and understand the situation as you do.

  11. #11
    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    I asked the Chesterfield Emergency Management Coordinator and here is her response:



    Thank you for your email. I appreciate your contact regarding the safety of Chesterfield County citizens. The police force and fire departments of a locality have the responsibility to safeguard life and property. Chesterfield Police were doing that at Glebe Point, because of the presence of explosives. The police were working in conjunction with the fire chief and I do not know of anyone who refused to leave once they were informed of the potential danger. The Fire Chief, under Virginia Administrative Code 13VAC5-51-101. Section 110.5 "Evacuation: When, in the fire official's opinion, there is actual and potential danger to the occupants or those in the proximity of any structure or premises because of unsafe structural conditions, or inadequacy of any means of egress, the presence of explosives, explosive fumes or vapors, or the presence of toxic fumes, gases or materials, the fire official may order the immediate evacuation of the structure or premises. All notified occupants shall immediately leave the structure or premises and no person shall enter until authorized by the fire official." F.110.6 also says," Unlawful continuance: Any person who refuses to leave, interferes with the evacuation of other occupants or continues any operation after having been given an evacuation order shall be in violation of this code." The statutory Authority is under 27-97 of the Code of Virginia and has been adopted by Chesterfield County under Chapter 10 of the county code.



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