John Miller Response

Freeflight · Feb 19, 2008

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This is the response I just got from John Miller (D) for my VCDL.ORG Automated letter to support HB 476 to repeal the restaurant ban.

I guess he believes that I am a murderous hothead that can't control himself...:banghead:

David:

Thank you for your recent e-mail asking me to support HB 476, which would allow a person to bring a concealed handgun into a restaurant or a club as long as that person does not consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. The bill passed the Senate 24-15.
I opposed this bill because I don?t believe having handguns in establishments that serve alcohol is a good idea. For me, guns and alcohol are an explosive mixture that could lead to disaster.

While we disagree on this issue, I hope you will continue to share your views with me in the days ahead.
John Miller

Marco · Feb 19, 2008

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Maybeemail a link to thethread regarding Restaurant Carryto show this uninformed politician.

Shotgun · Feb 19, 2008

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LOL, well, alcohol + "anything" = explosive mixture. So I guess Mr. Miller doesn't think people should be allowed to drive to the liquor store or a bar, after all, alcohol + driving = explosive mixture.

Alcohol + carelessly used tobacco = explosive mixture.

Alcohol + crawling into the polar bear exhibit at the zoo = explosive mixture.

Ad nauseum.

Either people act responsibly with alcohol, with guns, with cars, with polar bears, etc. or they do not. You cannot legislate this.

Okay, I will concede this: beer + pizza does not equal explosive mixture. It = good meal!

Freeflight · Feb 19, 2008

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He's just singing from the Brady's music sheet. He doesn't really understand the issues.

At least he responded... instead of ignoring me.

Doug Huffman · Feb 19, 2008

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Hmm, from where have we heard these sentiments previously expressed, that 'guns and alcohol don't mix'?

621 matches found, I'll leave it to the grashoppers to quibble http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/search.php?s=1&q=alcohol

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$

LEO 229 · Feb 19, 2008

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So my priorbelief was spot on.....

The law banningconcealed guns in alcohol establishments is because the state does not want someone armed to get served alcohol or too much alcohol.

Not sure I really agree with that but I can understand.

But if the state is going to do that I wish they would take action against servers at a barwhoallow people to get drop dead drunk andthen drive home. That car is a deadly tool as well.

Xeni · Feb 19, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

So my priorbelief was spot on.....

The law banningconcealed guns in alcohol establishments is because the state does not want someone armed to get served alcohol or too much alcohol.

Not sure I really agree with that but I can understand.

But if the state is going to do that I wish they would take action against servers at a barwhoallow people to get drop dead drunk andthen drive home. That car is a deadly tool as well.

My understanding is that currently, it is not illegal to OC into a bar and order a drink..or 2..or 3.

Am I wrong here? I mean, most persons wouldn't want to impair their judgement to that point while carrying but as to the letter of the law -- it isn't illegal, is it?

So, assuming that's the case, what's the difference then with a person that's CC being served those same drinks?

The only thing that I can come up with is...liability. What am I missing here?

hsmith · Feb 19, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

So my priorbelief was spot on.....

The law banningconcealed guns in alcohol establishments is because the state does not want someone armed to get served alcohol or too much alcohol.

Not sure I really agree with that but I can understand.

But if the state is going to do that I wish they would take action against servers at a barwhoallow people to get drop dead drunk andthen drive home. That car is a deadly tool as well.

I'd like to see the stats of people killed by drunk drivers in VA compared to people killed by drunk CCW's in VA dicharging their firearms.

For some reason, I think the drunk drivers would stomp over drunk weapon owners.

I guess banning those from driving from being served would go against the lobby of bar owners.

LEO 229 · Feb 19, 2008

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Xeni wrote:

My understanding is that currently, it is not illegal to OC into a bar and order a drink..or 2..or 3.

Am I wrong here? I mean, most persons wouldn't want to impair their judgement to that point while carrying but as to the letter of the law -- it isn't illegal, is it?

So, assuming that's the case, what's the difference then with a person that's CC being served those same drinks?

The only thing that I can come up with is...liability. What am I missing here?

That is how I understand it too...

As I speculated a while ago... It seems that the state does not want people secretly armed with a gun to get served alcohol.

I can only guess that they do not want people with a gun to get too drunk and shoot their gun like ata Saloon on Bonanza. The state wants to allow the server to be aware and cut them off before that can happen. But then it is OK to serve booze to someone who drove there in a car.

I just do not understand that at all.

LEO 229 · Feb 19, 2008

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hsmith wrote:

I'd like to see the stats of people killed by drunk drivers in VA compared to people killed by drunk CCW's in VA dicharging their firearms.

For some reason, I think the drunk drivers would stomp over drunk weapon owners.

I guess banning those from driving from being served would go against the lobby of bar owners.

Agreed!!

Far more drunk drivers leaving the bar than people with guns who shoot them illegally.

SouthernBoy · Feb 19, 2008

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While it may be a technicality, as I recall there are no bars in Virginia.

Decoligny · Feb 19, 2008

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Shotgun wrote:

Okay, I will concede this: beer + pizza does not equal explosive mixture.

Just wait until a few hours after the beer + pizza ! ! !

DrMark · Feb 19, 2008

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That's the same letter I got from Sen. Miller (my Senator), as I posted in the RB Repeal Bill thread.

My brothers and I discussed this bill with him in his office on Lobby day. He mentioned a recent shooting in a night club as a point for his position, and we countered with the fact that such shootings point out the uselessness of such bans.

He did not seem dogmatically anti-gun, but we were getting the vibe that as a new Democrat State Senator, he'd probably be following the party script rather closely (and thus following the Governor's lead).

He was also eager to pick our brains on the smoking ban issue, in part because one of my brothers is a physician in his district.

Tess · Feb 19, 2008

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Xeni wrote

My understanding is that currently, it is not illegal to OC into a bar and order a drink..or 2..or 3.

Am I wrong here? I mean, most persons wouldn't want to impair their judgement to that point while carrying but as to the letter of the law -- it isn't illegal, is it?

So, assuming that's the case, what's the difference then with a person that's CC being served those same drinks?

The only thing that I can come up with is...liability. What am I missing here?

True. It is not illegal to drink while armed (in Virginia). It is illegal to be drunk (under the influence) while armed. I believe the code is subject to interpretation, but IANAL. I could potentially concede the point that one who has imbibed is under the influence, even if that influence is not sufficient to impair his judgement. I'd also be willing to argue in court that consumption of one drink is not enough to put me under the influence. But then I'd be putting my fate into the hands of someone whose judgment I may or may not respect.

18.2-308
J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.
...
J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

Thundar · Feb 19, 2008

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What is the penalty for concealed carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol?

Toad · Feb 19, 2008

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Beer + Forum posting = explosive mixture

I know I have done it

Mike · Feb 19, 2008

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Miller replaced Sen. Williams who was primaried for being too moderate - time to start looking for a pro-gun Dem to primary Miller.

peter nap · Feb 20, 2008

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SouthernBoy wrote:

While it may be a technicality, as I recall there are no bars in Virginia.

It may be that it would be better if there were bars in Virginia. Then they could have a NO GUNS IN BARS law, leaving the restaurants alone.

It's no wonder that so many members of the General Assembly are concerned. Turn on the news and almost every day, there is a story about a shooting at a "Club" in one of the cities.
Never mind that most of the shootings are inner city drug hangouts and that most of the shootings are drug related and that few of the people carrying there are doing so legally....and remember, many of these " CLUBS" are private.

The GA has a problem telling the difference between Tony's Pizza and the Blue Lizard Lounge.

Even most of the Biker Bars have a sign saying "No Colors, No Weapons" and most of the patrons go along with it. It keeps the fights sporting.

Not so with the city watering holes.

soloban · Feb 20, 2008

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Thundar wrote:

What is the penalty for concealed carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol?

Believe its a Class 1 Misdeameanor, though 18.2-308 J3 doesn't specifically mention a penalty.

I'm no lawyer but I would assume it falls back on 18.2-308 A which states the first violation of carrying a concealed weapon is a Class 1 Misdeameanor, second Class 6 felony, third, Class 5 felony.

Class 1 Misdeameanor in VA carries a max county jail time of 12 mo, max $2500 fine
Class 6 Felony in VA carries a max of 1 - 5 years state prison or 12 mo county jail, max $2500 fine
Class 5 Felony in VA carries a max of 1 - 10 years state prison or 12 mo county jail, max $2500 fine

nova · Feb 20, 2008

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Shotgun wrote:

LOL, well, alcohol + "anything" = explosive mixture. So I guess Mr. Miller doesn't think people should be allowed to drive to the liquor store or a bar, after all, alcohol + driving = explosive mixture.

Alcohol + carelessly used tobacco = explosive mixture.

Alcohol + crawling into the polar bear exhibit at the zoo = explosive mixture.

Okay, I will concede this: beer + pizza does not equal explosive mixture. It = good meal!

alcohol + open flame = explosive mixture, litererly

or, consider this:

beer + pizza = x
x + open flame = explosive misture...again, litererly :lol:

John Miller Response

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