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Crime up in Austrailia after gun ban - any hard numbers?

AbNo

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So, an internet friend of mine in Upstate New York posted this on a social networking site, and I was wondering if anyone knew where to find hard facts to back this up. If it's true, I'd be quite happy.

There's more to it, but this is the meaty part, so to speak.

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new laws to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australian taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
 

WhiteRabbit22

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Not sure if those facts are accurate, but that's about exatcly what I would expect to happen.
 

MarkNH

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From the Australian Government's Institute of Criminology:

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/violence.html

fig003.png


Detailed numbers:

From 1996 to 2005 homicides dropped from 354 to 295, robberies stayed about the same, but kidnappings went from 478 to 730, sexual assaults from 14,542 to 18,172, and assaults from 114,156 to 166,499.

I suppose the extra 50000 assault victims and 3500 rape victims should just be grateful they weren't one of the 60 less murders that happened :?
 

Euromutt

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Ah, the Australian firearms crackdown. It's funny (more "funny peculiar" than funny ha-ha") how both anti-gunners and pro-RKBA types in the US claim the Australian statistics vindicate their respective opinions, and truth be told, neither of them is right. I did some digging into the figures about a year ago, and some useful reference materials published by the Australian Institute of Criminology are:
Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 1998
Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 2004
Firearm related deaths in Australia, 1991-2001

The thing to bear in mind here is that you can't show a trend with only two data points. Statistically, you can "prove" anything you want if you show only the two data points that support your position. And that generally what activists on both sides have been doing. Another thing is that correlation does not imply causation. Let's look at some claims from the Brady Campaign "fact" sheet first:

Homicides committed with firearms have been declining – from 21 percent of all homicides in 1997 to 16 percent in 2002-2003.
True. Thing is, as Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 2004 points out, the percentage of homicides committed with a firearm had been dropping since 1969. The drop from 1997 to 2003 was simply part of that pre-existing trend, and can therefore not be attributed to the imposition of tighter gun control measures. Note, moreover, that there was no downward trend in the homicide rate.

Along with the declining use of firearms in homicide, Australia saw a 44% decline in the use of firearms in armed robberies from 1993 to 2003. From 1997 to 2003, the proportion of robberies committed with a firearm dropped from 10 to 6 percent.
Again, true, but there are two problems. First, the start of the decline in the percentage of armed robberies committed with firearms starts in 1993, three years before the "buyback," so again, we're to be dealing with a pre-existing trend. And again, the number of armed robberies did not decrease post-1996; in fact, it rose. The Bradies' latter claim--that "from 1997 to 2003, the proportion of robberies committed with a firearm dropped from 10 to 6 percent"--is undermined by the fact that the number of armed robberies committed with weapons other than firearms (knives, cricket bats, jars of Vegemite, sharpened didgeridoos, etc.) and (especially) the number of unarmed robberies increased to such an extent that the percentage of robberies committed with firearms could quite easily have dropped during that period without the actual number of such robberies decreasing.

(To illustrate: say that in 1997, there are 100 robberies, 10 of which are committed with firearms. Thus, 10% of robberies that year are committed with firearms. In 2003, there are still 10 robberies committed with firearms, but the overall number of robberies has risen to 167, so the percentage of robberies committed with firearms that year has dropped to 6%. Are we any better off?)

So the Brady Campaign is full of s**t. No surprise there. But does that mean AbNo's friend is right? Well, probably not, for exactly the same reasons. If you look at the AIC's Australian Crime pamphlets, you'll see that the rising trends in assaults and robberies (unarmed more than armed) predate the 1996 imposition of tighter gun controls, and don't show a significant deviation following the imposition of these measures. Note in particular this sentence:

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.
Assuming that that claim is true, it still doesn't necessarily mean very much, and the wording is misleading at best. A look at Firearm related deaths in Australia, 1991-2001 shows that, from 1996 to 1997, the number of firearm homicides for Australia overall dropped (from 104 to 79); ditto for the next year (from 79 to 57). Thus, even if homicides with firearms in the state of Victoria did increase fourfold, we must conclude that such an increase not only happened only "in the state of Victoria alone," but also that the initial number of firearms homcides in Victoria was either not that huge, and that the increase in Victoria was readily compensated nationally for by massive drops in the other more densely populated states. Frankly, most of the increases in crime claimed by AbNo's friend are either part of pre-existing trends, or are not supported by the AIC's data.

Really, the imposition of tighter gun control measures in Australia doesn't appear to have have had any effect on violent crime one way or the other. While there appears to have been some reduction in the amount of violent crime committed with guns in the immediate wake of the tightened gun controls, this was more than compensated for by an increase in violent crime using other weapons or personal force alone.

That doesn't mean that Australian example is a rhetorical draw, though. Fact is, the Australian federal government, through pressure on the states, curtailed its citizens' freedoms to no good end (i.e. public safety was not increased).
 

Pointman

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This does not take into account the number of injuries from attacks (including but not limited to animal attacks) that could have been prevented, or at least minimized, by the use of a firearm.

The phrase often used to justify safety is, "If only one life could be saved, it is worth it." I don't support that phrase, because it only focuses on one life being saved, not any other factors, including the number of lives that will be lost. In this case, the phrase anti-gun persons use seems to work against them, since it causes lives to be lost from not being able to defend oneself with a firearm.

Perhaps we ought to consider the phrase, "If only one liberty can be preserved..."

http://www.bugbog.com/travel_safety/dangerous_animals/crocodile_attacks.html
http://www.ahs.org.au/news.php?name=croc.txt
http://www.iccwa.org.au/Dog%20Attacks%20ICCWA%20Fact%20Sheet1.pdf
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/28/2128427.htm
 

LEO 229

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I was told the burglaries went up since there wasno risk of being shot.
 

swillden

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LEO 229 wrote:
I was told the burglaries went up since there wasno risk of being shot.
As the Snopes article points out, that's questionable. Most Australians weren't armed before the restrictions went into effect, and the restrictions didn't completely disarm Australians -- they only removed some types of firearms and even those can still be possessed if you can justify it.

OTOH, it's possible that whatever the reality of the situation, Australian burglars once did worry about getting show by the rare armed gun owner, and now don't worry about it because they don't realize that guns are still out there. Burglars aren't the brightest of people.
 

Euromutt

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LEO 229 wrote:
I was told the burglaries went up since there wasno risk of being shot.
Hmm, that claim seems implausible. Figure 28 in Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 1998 does show a rising trend in "unlawful entry with intent" from Jan-1995 to Dec-1997, but UEWI was already on the rise for over a year prior to the Port Arthur shootings (April 1996), let alone the increased gun controls that were imposed subsequently, nor did the trend change significantly in the immediate aftermath of the increased restrictions.
 

Euromutt

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Not "now," to the best of my knowledge. They had some trouble with two rape gangs, one in Sydney in 2000, another in Ashfield, NSW in 2001-2002. Nasty, but not exactly commonplace, and the amount of time since it ceased going on is now three times as long as the time it was going on in the first place.

It's worth noting, moreover, that the victims of these attacks were all teenage girls, almost all younger than 18, who were lured from public places; there were no home invasion-type incidents. So it's not like the victims might have had a firearm with which to defend themselves, had it not been for the tightened gun laws.

On the other hand, in at least one instance in the Sydney cases, one of the rapists had a handgun, indicating that the increased restrictions failed to do the trick in disarming would-be criminals.

Regarding John Lott, I've not been able to find very many instances of him saying anything substantial about Australian crime rates. He's pointed out on numerous occasions that violent crime overall increased in Australia in the wake of the increased restrictions, but he's very rarely expanded on what that means. I did find a transcript of an online Q&A session he did for the Washington Post, in which he pointed out that the UK, Australia, Ireland and Jamaica all saw increases in crime following the imposition of tightened gun control, and then states:

Does this mean that in Britain or other countries that these bans caused crime rates to rise? No, not necessarily by any means. In Britain, I think that a lot of the problem is the rise in drug gangs (a similar very important problem that we have in the US). But just as drug gangs can bring in the drugs that they want to sell they can also bring in the guns that they need to protect their valuable drugs.
Let me make it very clear that the fact that I take issue with the contention that tightened gun controls lead to increases in violent crime does not mean I come down in favor of said controls. At a minimum, the increases in violent crime rates show that the tightening of gun laws almost invariably fails to achieve the effect of reducing violent crime (which is the claim that was used to sell it in the first place).

Confession: I'm a reformed gun control advocate, and I did a lot of digging into the effects of gun control laws in various countries before I was finally forced to conclude that the evidence overwhelmingly indicated that gun control, on balance, doesn't do any good. In my own country of origin (the Netherlands), I've seen weapons laws tightened several times in my lifetime, and every time the rationale given is a need to combat an increase in violent crime. Well, if violent crime has gone up in spite of the the already existing restrictions (which were supposed to stop the increase, or even reduce violent crime), why would anyone in his right mind think that more of the same is going to do the trick?

Note that I do say "on balance." I suspect that severely limiting private citizens' access to firearms does help reduce/prevent high-profile mass shootings like Dunblane (UK), Erfurt (Germany), Columbine, etc. Let's be honest here: a total ban on sales of firearms to private citizens could have prevented just about every high-profile mass shooting you can think of. Most spree shooters are not "people persons"; they wouldn't have the smarts to acquire guns on the black market. Take Cho Seung-Hui: he paid for his guns with a credit card, which he hadn't paid off by the time he capped himself. How many drug dealers or fences do you know who accept Visa?
Sure, Harris and Klebold acquired their weapons illegally, but from people who were themselves eligible to own firearms. In a situation where private ownership of firearms was outlawed completely, the people who sold Harris and Klebold their guns wouldn't have been able to possess them themselves.

However, the death toll from high-profile mass shootings, for all the media attention they gather, is a drop in the bucket of overall violent crime rates. In the worst years, maybe 100 people in the US die from this sort of incident, and a similar number are wounded. Against that, we have to weigh how many violent crimes are prevented by private citizens with firearms. Even by the most conservative estimates (quietly conceded by the anti-gun lobby), that's at least 600,000 annually in the US. Thus, a UK-style near-total ban on private firearms ownership might prevent 100 homicides a year in the US, but at a price of at least 600,000 additional violent crimes (homicides, rapes, assaults and robberies) having a significantly higher chance of being completed.

As a former gun control advocate, I'm sympathetic in an abstract sense to the anti-gunners' mantra "if it saves just one life, it'll be worth it." Where I diverge from the anti-gunners is in that I've acknowledged that gun control never does, on balance, manage to save lives, and is therefore not worth the price.

Sheez, sorry about the rant, guys. I guess I needed to get something off my chest, huh?
 

deepdiver

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Euromutt wrote:
SNIP
Sheez, sorry about the rant, guys. I guess I needed to get something off my chest, huh?
I wouldn't call that a rant in the least. Very cogent discussion of the issue at hand. I very much appreciated and enjoyed your comments.
 

jack412

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AbNo wrote:
So, an internet friend of mine in Upstate New York posted this on a social networking site, and I was wondering if anyone knew where to find hard facts to back this up. If it's true, I'd be quite happy.

There's more to it, but this is the meaty part, so to speak.

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new laws to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australian taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
there is a page on snopes re that particular myth
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

i consider myself a moderate gun owner and actually support most of the aussie gun law

We brought in gun control for mass murder reduction
We restricted semi auto rifles and locked all guns up when not in use
Our gun control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

we had 47% less gun death since gun control
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269.pdf

our total murder fell nearly 25%
open this link...look at the 2 graphs and..click on the graph picture..
to read the detailed numbers
http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/homicide.html

http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=1502
The risk of dying by gunshot has halved since Australian gun buy-back
Not only were Australia's post-Port Arthur gun laws followed by a decade in which the crime they were designed to reduce hasn't happened again,

10 years, no mass killing [4+] we were averaging nearly one a year

but we also saw a life-saving bonus: the decline in overall gun deaths accelerated to twice the rate seen before the new gun laws
** firearm suicides and firearm homicides were reducing by 3 per cent (total gun death) each year until 1996,
these average rates of decline doubled to,
6 per cent each year (total gun death),
7.5 per cent each year (gun homicide)
following the introduction of new gun laws.



our progun political party report
http://www.shootersparty.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=9

  • [font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]The reforms did not affect rates of firearm homicide in Australia.[/font][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]The reforms could not be shown to alter rates of firearm suicide, because rates of suicide using other methods also began to decline in the late 1990’s.[/font][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]It is likely that social changes including increased resource allocation for suicide prevention impacted on rates of suicide by all methods, including firearms.[/font][font="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]It must be concluded that the gun buyback and restrictive legislative changes had no influence on firearm homicide in Australia.[/font]


rebuttal
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=14355
“We find reductions in both gun homicide and gun suicide rates that are statistically significant, meaning that they are larger than would have been expected by mere chance,” Dr Leigh said.“Our best estimates are that the gun buyback has saved between 128 and 282 lives per year.”
http://econrsss.anu.edu.au/pdf/DP555.pdf for full text
 

jack412

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MarkNH wrote:
From the Australian Government's Institute of Criminology:

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/violence.html

fig003.png


Detailed numbers:

From 1996 to 2005 homicides dropped from 354 to 295, robberies stayed about the same, but kidnappings went from 478 to 730, sexual assaults from 14,542 to 18,172, and assaults from 114,156 to 166,499.

I suppose the extra 50000 assault victims and 3500 rape victims should just be grateful they weren't one of the 60 less murders that happened :?
you may find this crime link of benefit ..it has a full report available from the links on the right hand side of page
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html

our assault has gone up ..although it is still considered a low rate and this is a total number ..including harrasment and the threat of assault

just to qualify your post, although the assault was per capita, some numbers on our crime site are raw and dont allow for our population increase..they arent per capita
our population has risen about 15% since 1996..so if the crime numbers stay the same...it has actually fell 15%

The gun buy-back scheme started in most States on 1 October 1996 and ended on 30 September 1997. and the law was in full effect
So 1998 was the first full year of gun control

our total assault including threat, per 100,000 ...up 15% over 7 years or 2% pa
709 in 1998,
820 in 2005

but a lot arent of age to own a gun
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/fig015.png

and most assault is by family and friend
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/fig016.png
 

jack412

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Euromutt wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
I was told the burglaries went up since there wasno risk of being shot.
Hmm, that claim seems implausible. Figure 28 in Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 1998 does show a rising trend in "unlawful entry with intent" from Jan-1995 to Dec-1997, but UEWI was already on the rise for over a year prior to the Port Arthur shootings (April 1996), let alone the increased gun controls that were imposed subsequently, nor did the trend change significantly in the immediate aftermath of the increased restrictions.
you may find australian fact and figures 2006 to be more healpful...it has crime for 10 years from 1996 and on the rhs there is links to the full report
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html

also the Australian Bureau of Statistics is worth while

as to our rate of burglary
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=4510.0+-+Recorded+Crime+-+Victims%2C+Australia%2C+2006&btnG=Search&meta=
open link, recorded crime 2006, then open, data cube table 1
Burlary per 100,000

2276.2 in 1997
2,319.5 in 1998
2,195.7
2,281.3
2,244.9
2,007.9
1,781.7
1,536.6
1,386.6
1,271.2 in 2006 ...it has fallen nearly 50%
 

Euromutt

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jack412 wrote:
you may find australian fact and figures 2006 to be more healpful...it has crime for 10 years from 1996 and on the rhs there is links to the full report
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html
Thanks for the links. Thing is, though, when you're trying to determine the presence or absence of a causal relationship between increased restrictions on firearms ownership and changes in crime rates, you can't only look at the figures from the time period following imposition of the increased restrictions; you have to look at what was going on before as well.

Sure, since 2001, raw numbers of UEWI have dropped, and from 2004 onwards, they were lower than the numbers for 1995 and 1996; and as you note, the UEWI rate has dropped significantly in the period from 1997 to 2006. But to point at those facts alone is to ignore that UEWI--both in raw numbers and in rates per 100,000 population--didn't start dropping significantly until 2002/2003.

The fact that UEWI was steadily (albeit not rapidly) increasing prior to the 1997 imposition of new gun laws, and continued to rise in raw numbers (and remain more or less stable in rate/100,000) for five years afterwards, indicates that the subsequent drop was not the result of tighter gun control. It's worth noting that robbery and motor vehicle theft displayed very similar trend patterns, whereas assault and sexual assault did not, indicating that the drop in crimes involving theft in some form is most likely related to an improvement in the economy, and/or possibly a drop in prices of illegal narcotics.

Conversely, however, the fact that theft-type crimes did drop (and quite dramatically so) at some point after the tighter gun laws were imposed supports the idea that those gun laws were not the cause of that increase (as the drop occurred without the gun laws being repealed).

The long and short being that, in the case of theft-type offenses at least, the increased firearm restrictions had no effect either way.
 

jack412

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Euromutt wrote:
jack412 wrote:
you may find australian fact and figures 2006 to be more healpful...it has crime for 10 years from 1996 and on the rhs there is links to the full report
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html
Thanks for the links. Thing is, though, when you're trying to determine the presence or absence of a causal relationship between increased restrictions on firearms ownership and changes in crime rates, you can't only look at the figures from the time period following imposition of the increased restrictions; you have to look at what was going on before as well.

Sure, since 2001, raw numbers of UEWI have dropped, and from 2004 onwards, they were lower than the numbers for 1995 and 1996; and as you note, the UEWI rate has dropped significantly in the period from 1997 to 2006. But to point at those facts alone is to ignore that UEWI--both in raw numbers and in rates per 100,000 population--didn't start dropping significantly until 2002/2003.

The fact that UEWI was steadily (albeit not rapidly) increasing prior to the 1997 imposition of new gun laws, and continued to rise in raw numbers (and remain more or less stable in rate/100,000) for five years afterwards, indicates that the subsequent drop was not the result of tighter gun control. It's worth noting that robbery and motor vehicle theft displayed very similar trend patterns, whereas assault and sexual assault did not, indicating that the drop in crimes involving theft in some form is most likely related to an improvement in the economy, and/or possibly a drop in prices of illegal narcotics.

Conversely, however, the fact that theft-type crimes did drop (and quite dramatically so) at some point after the tighter gun laws were imposed supports the idea that those gun laws were not the cause of that increase (as the drop occurred without the gun laws being repealed).

The long and short being that, in the case of theft-type offenses at least, the increased firearm restrictions had no effect either way.
as i said above, we brought in gun control to try and stem mass murder [4+], so far its been successful
I’m actually just stating our crime numbers and refuting the wild numbers and extreme lengths some go to about other countries..eg. UK Canada and Australia for the perceived benefit of American progun

We didn’t have ccw and the main change was than guns had to be locked up when not in use and that semi auto rifles were restricted,
As to what daily crimes were or weren’t effected, simply i say that overall crime rates have gone down..not up
gun death down 47%
murder down 25%
assault up 15%,
armed robbery down 20%
burglary down 40%
car theft down 50%

I would say that anyone who would say that locking up guns and not having semiauto rifles made any crime go up, has a political motive and a hidden agenda
Australia has low crime
usa
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_16.html
aus
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html

4 times less than your murder rate
half your robbery
less assault
less car theft
we have twice your burglary
rate of per 100 thousand people, per capita so a direct comparison

MURDER
usa 6.1
canada 1.85
UK 1.55
aus 1.40

ROBBERY
usa 160.4
aus 83

vehicular theft
usa 424.4
aus 397

burglary
usa 748.7
aus 1,398

ASSAULT total / aggravated and simple,
usa 8.3%
aus 5.9%
http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/icvs/pdf_files/ICVS2004_05report.pdf

prisoners per 100k
usa 714
uk 142
Aus 117
Canada 116
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/world-prison-population-list-2005.pdf
 
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