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Thread: Kennewick man kills neighbor's 2 pit bulls

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    KENNEWICK — A Kennewick man shot and killed his neighbor's two pit bulls after they got into his chicken coop, then charged at him, police said.

    "He was protecting his family and our livestock," Laura Chandia said of her husband's actions Monday. "It was the third time they were in our yard that day."

    But Obadiah Soto, who lives next door in the 3400 block of South Auburn Street, said the pit bulls were just puppies and didn't need to be killed.

    "They're babies. They're not even 6 months old yet," Soto said Tuesday. "They're harmless... There's a much better way of handling it than pulling out a gun and shooting a new neighbor's dogs."

    Kennewick police were called to Chandia's home at 4:30 p.m., said Mike Blatman, Kennewick police's crime prevention specialist. One pit bull was found dead in the fenced area of the chicken coop and the other was in the fenced backyard, Blatman said.

    "The owner of the chickens was fearful. He had small children and felt he may be attacked as well as his chickens," Blatman said.

    It is illegal to fire a gun in the city limits, Blatman said, but residents have a right to protect their property. The police report, however, will be sent to the city attorney for review, he said.

    The pit bulls, Precious and Vicious, are owned by Michael Soto, Obadiah Soto's brother. Obadiah Soto said he had just talked to his new neighbor, Laura Chandia, that day. The Sotos moved into the home two months ago, he said.

    He said the Chandias knew who the dogs belonged to and they should have told him the pit bulls were in their yard again.

    "If I saw these dogs, and I didn't know who they belonged to, I probably would have tripped out as well," Soto said. "But they knew who the dogs were... There was no warning, no nothing. He just shoots the dogs and doesn't even tell us they shot them."

    Pit bulls get a "bad rap" and are often considered vicious, Soto said, but his dogs weren't. He said they were purebred pit bull puppies that cost $400 each. He said the dogs stood about knee high and had big floppy ears.

    "These are not your average pit bulls," he said. "These were puppies, man. If you just saw them, you'd understand. They weren't fighting dogs."

    Soto said they do run toward people when they see them, but not in an aggressive way.

    Laura Chandia disputes that. She said every time she opened the door to try to shoo them away, they ran toward her, growling.

    "They were frenzied around the chicken coop and one of them got in," she said. "My son went to the window to distract them, and one got out. They discovered the hole in the hen house, and my husband went to scare them away and one came out at him.

    "They might be real docile to them (the owners) but to other people they're not."

    She said the dogs might be puppies, but they were "big puppies," maybe the size of medium-sized dogs. She said she had called animal control and was running out the door to get the neighbor when the dogs charged her husband.

    "My husband had to make a split-second decision," Chandia said. "... My husband's not a gunslinger... It just got escalated."

    Soto admits the dogs shouldn't have been over in the yard or in the chicken coop, but he said his neighbors handled it all wrong.

    "As far as being good neighbors or bad neighbors, this is horrible," he said. "They didn't get what they deserved. They were just puppies. They killed two little kids' dogs. One doesn't understand where the dogs have gone."

    Chandia said, "Yeah, maybe it could have happened differently and I'm sorry that it all happened. The thing is that it did and we didn't want to. All we could think of is our kids going out and having a problem."

    The owner of the dogs, Michael Soto, could not be reached Tuesday.
    Maybe Soto should've been a good neighbor and kept his dogs where they belong...

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    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
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    KENNEWICK — A Kennewick man shot and killed his neighbor's two pit bulls after they got into his chicken coop, then charged at him, police said.

    "He was protecting his family and our livestock," Laura Chandia said of her husband's actions Monday. "It was the third time they were in our yard that day."

    But Obadiah Soto, who lives next door in the 3400 block of South Auburn Street, said the pit bulls were just puppies and didn't need to be killed.

    "They're babies. They're not even 6 months old yet," Soto said Tuesday. "They're harmless... There's a much better way of handling it than pulling out a gun and shooting a new neighbor's dogs."

    Kennewick police were called to Chandia's home at 4:30 p.m., said Mike Blatman, Kennewick police's crime prevention specialist. One pit bull was found dead in the fenced area of the chicken coop and the other was in the fenced backyard, Blatman said.

    "The owner of the chickens was fearful. He had small children and felt he may be attacked as well as his chickens," Blatman said.

    It is illegal to fire a gun in the city limits, Blatman said, but residents have a right to protect their property. The police report, however, will be sent to the city attorney for review, he said.

    The pit bulls, Precious and Vicious, are owned by Michael Soto, Obadiah Soto's brother. Obadiah Soto said he had just talked to his new neighbor, Laura Chandia, that day. The Sotos moved into the home two months ago, he said.

    He said the Chandias knew who the dogs belonged to and they should have told him the pit bulls were in their yard again.

    "If I saw these dogs, and I didn't know who they belonged to, I probably would have tripped out as well," Soto said. "But they knew who the dogs were... There was no warning, no nothing. He just shoots the dogs and doesn't even tell us they shot them."

    Pit bulls get a "bad rap" and are often considered vicious, Soto said, but his dogs weren't. He said they were purebred pit bull puppies that cost $400 each. He said the dogs stood about knee high and had big floppy ears.

    "These are not your average pit bulls," he said. "These were puppies, man. If you just saw them, you'd understand. They weren't fighting dogs."

    Soto said they do run toward people when they see them, but not in an aggressive way.

    Laura Chandia disputes that. She said every time she opened the door to try to shoo them away, they ran toward her, growling.

    "They were frenzied around the chicken coop and one of them got in," she said. "My son went to the window to distract them, and one got out. They discovered the hole in the hen house, and my husband went to scare them away and one came out at him.

    "They might be real docile to them (the owners) but to other people they're not."

    She said the dogs might be puppies, but they were "big puppies," maybe the size of medium-sized dogs. She said she had called animal control and was running out the door to get the neighbor when the dogs charged her husband.

    "My husband had to make a split-second decision," Chandia said. "... My husband's not a gunslinger... It just got escalated."

    Soto admits the dogs shouldn't have been over in the yard or in the chicken coop, but he said his neighbors handled it all wrong.

    "As far as being good neighbors or bad neighbors, this is horrible," he said. "They didn't get what they deserved. They were just puppies. They killed two little kids' dogs. One doesn't understand where the dogs have gone."

    Chandia said, "Yeah, maybe it could have happened differently and I'm sorry that it all happened. The thing is that it did and we didn't want to. All we could think of is our kids going out and having a problem."

    The owner of the dogs, Michael Soto, could not be reached Tuesday.
    Maybe Soto should've been a good neighbor and kept his dogs where they belong...
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.

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    "But Obadiah Soto, who lives next door in the 3400 block of South Auburn Street, said the pit bulls were just puppies and didn't need to be killed.

    "They're babies. They're not even 6 months old yet," Soto said Tuesday. "They're harmless... There's a much better way of handling it than pulling out a gun and shooting a new neighbor's dogs."



    Yeah he should have shot the ******* owner. Who didn't bother to take proper care of his animals. Just like you should smack the parents of unruly children rather than the child. Oh yeah and killing some one else animals is harmless? Like I said he should be shot for felony stupid.


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    Yeah, I've been dealing with our neighbors in my neighborhood allowing their damn dogs to run around and chase other animals through the neighborhood. Growled and acted aggressive against the wife and I a couple times, but they just "happen" to get out. Told the neighbors they better secure those dogs, called animal control, nothing has changed. It's going to come down to the same story one of these days; one of them will try to attack one of us and it'll have to be shot.......I've warned the neighbors what would happen, but they must think I'm not serious.

    I've been bitten enough times by dogs that were "harmless and friendly" to know not to turn my back on them and never assume they will be anything besides an animal........

    It's a problem everywhere, and nobody wants to do anything about it until someone ends up shooting the animal that gets on someone else's property and then everyone's up in arms about the "poor widdle animal" getting shot because it tried to EAT YOUR FACE..........makes me sick, all these damn liberal pansy f****........

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    At 6 months old, the meat should be nice and tender......mmmmm....Kagogi.



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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.

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    Besides that if the dogs are doing this at 6 months old, just how do you think they will act at a year or 18 months? Worse, a lot worseand if you know anything about animal behavior you will know that this is true.

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    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.
    Yah, I hear you. I'm not sure it's worse - unless they actually hurt something, there's no real harm done - but I'm not excusing the dog owner either.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    thewise1 wrote:
    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.
    Yah, I hear you. I'm not sure it's worse - unless they actually hurt something, there's no real harm done - but I'm not excusing the dog owner either.
    WTF....Using that reasoning if I walk out into my yard and randomly shoot in various directions, unless I actually hurt something, there's no real harm done.



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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    ............Yeah he should have shot the________ owner. Who didn't bother to take proper care of his animals. Just like you should smack the parents of unruly children rather than the child. Oh yeah and killing some one else animals is harmless? Like I said he should be shot for felony stupid.
    Parents are responsible for the actions of their children, both legally and morally, and owners are responsible for the actions of their animals, both legally and morally, BUT you do not advocate the taking of a human life over the actions of an animal, unless that animal was trained and used as a weapon of murder......lest you become the animal.

    The man had every right and duty to dispatch the animals and the owner of the dogs should pay for any and all damages to the fence, chicken coop and chickens.

    I dearly love dogs, but any doge of mine that shows any aggressive behavior is toast. Some animals should never be kept as pets.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.
    Yah, I hear you. I'm not sure it's worse - unless they actually hurt something, there's no real harm done - but I'm not excusing the dog owner either.
    WTF....Using that reasoning if I walk out into my yard and randomly shoot in various directions, unless I actually hurt something, there's no real harm done.

    Yes, your reasoning is correct. If you don't damage anything, then there was no property damage.

    Are we to bow to fear of what a dog might do as a reason to kill it? Would not the same logic apply to people feeling threatened by our firearms because of what we might do?

    The real damage here is that the dog was on the guy's property without permission. I don't view that as a valid reason to kill someone's dog, but I would definitely complain to them about it. If he was defending his property from them, then perhaps it was justified.

    I hope that makes sense. I'm not saying the guy who shot the dogs was necessarily in the wrong.

    BTW - I just reread it, and it looks like the dogs were getting all excited at the chickens. It would be interesting to know if they actually attacked the chickens, or if they were just excited like any puppy would get with a bunch of chickens running around. Again, not suggesting the guy who shot them was in the wrong, just that he actually destroyed property while the dogs did not do so.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    thewise1 wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.
    Yah, I hear you. I'm not sure it's worse - unless they actually hurt something, there's no real harm done - but I'm not excusing the dog owner either.
    WTF....Using that reasoning if I walk out into my yard and randomly shoot in various directions, unless I actually hurt something, there's no real harm done.

    Yes, your reasoning is correct. If you don't damage anything, then there was no property damage.

    Are we to bow to fear of what a dog might do as a reason to kill it? Would not the same logic apply to people feeling threatened by our firearms because of what we might do?

    The real damage here is that the dog was on the guy's property without permission. I don't view that as a valid reason to kill someone's dog, but I would definitely complain to them about it. If he was defending his property from them, then perhaps it was justified.

    I hope that makes sense. I'm not saying the guy who shot the dogs was necessarily in the wrong.

    BTW - I just reread it, and it looks like the dogs were getting all excited at the chickens. It would be interesting to know if they actually attacked the chickens, or if they were just excited like any puppy would get with a bunch of chickens running around. Again, not suggesting the guy who shot them was in the wrong, just that he actually destroyed property while the dogs did not do so.
    No, not fear, but we should insist on prudent action.

    Shooting the dogs may piss off the neighbors, but it was the appropriate reasonable response for the situation.

    Letting your PitBulls run the neighborhood is very similar to firing off rounds at random - sooner of later someone is going to get hurt. So it is indeed a MUCH WORSE way to piss off neighbors.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.
    Yah, I hear you. I'm not sure it's worse - unless they actually hurt something, there's no real harm done - but I'm not excusing the dog owner either.
    WTF....Using that reasoning if I walk out into my yard and randomly shoot in various directions, unless I actually hurt something, there's no real harm done.

    Yes, your reasoning is correct. If you don't damage anything, then there was no property damage.

    Are we to bow to fear of what a dog might do as a reason to kill it? Would not the same logic apply to people feeling threatened by our firearms because of what we might do?

    The real damage here is that the dog was on the guy's property without permission. I don't view that as a valid reason to kill someone's dog, but I would definitely complain to them about it. If he was defending his property from them, then perhaps it was justified.

    I hope that makes sense. I'm not saying the guy who shot the dogs was necessarily in the wrong.

    BTW - I just reread it, and it looks like the dogs were getting all excited at the chickens. It would be interesting to know if they actually attacked the chickens, or if they were just excited like any puppy would get with a bunch of chickens running around. Again, not suggesting the guy who shot them was in the wrong, just that he actually destroyed property while the dogs did not do so.
    No, not fear, but we should insist on prudent action.

    Shooting the dogs may piss off the neighbors, but it was the appropriate reasonable response for the situation.

    Letting your PitBulls run the neighborhood is very similar to firing off rounds at random - sooner of later someone is going to get hurt. So it is indeed a MUCH WORSE way to piss off neighbors.
    I've done the pitbull argument on the internet before, and I simply don't care enough about it to argue whether one can assume that they will attack someone or something given enough time.

    I personally believe that such a premise is false, however, and that's how I derived my response. Agree to disagree?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Yep

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    Decoligny wrote:
    Yep
    Fair enough brother

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    thewise1 wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    USAF_MetalChris wrote:
    thewise1 wrote:
    Certainly not a good way to maintain good relations with your neighbor, but the neighbor should have kept the dogs contained.
    While I do agree with you, I submit that letting your dogs (pit bulls at that) run wild is an even worse way to maintain good relations with your entire neighborhood, much less neighbor.
    Yah, I hear you. I'm not sure it's worse - unless they actually hurt something, there's no real harm done - but I'm not excusing the dog owner either.
    WTF....Using that reasoning if I walk out into my yard and randomly shoot in various directions, unless I actually hurt something, there's no real harm done.

    Yes, your reasoning is correct. If you don't damage anything, then there was no property damage.

    Are we to bow to fear of what a dog might do as a reason to kill it? Would not the same logic apply to people feeling threatened by our firearms because of what we might do?

    The real damage here is that the dog was on the guy's property without permission. I don't view that as a valid reason to kill someone's dog, but I would definitely complain to them about it. If he was defending his property from them, then perhaps it was justified.

    I hope that makes sense. I'm not saying the guy who shot the dogs was necessarily in the wrong.

    BTW - I just reread it, and it looks like the dogs were getting all excited at the chickens. It would be interesting to know if they actually attacked the chickens, or if they were just excited like any puppy would get with a bunch of chickens running around. Again, not suggesting the guy who shot them was in the wrong, just that he actually destroyed property while the dogs did not do so.
    No, not fear, but we should insist on prudent action.

    Shooting the dogs may piss off the neighbors, but it was the appropriate reasonable response for the situation.

    Letting your PitBulls run the neighborhood is very similar to firing off rounds at random - sooner of later someone is going to get hurt. So it is indeed a MUCH WORSE way to piss off neighbors.
    I've done the pitbull argument on the internet before, and I simply don't care enough about it to argue whether one can assume that they will attack someone or something given enough time.

    I personally believe that such a premise is false, however, and that's how I derived my response. Agree to disagree?
    If the dogs are allowed to run wide and act as these dogs were, they will everytime turn into problems. They need to be trained to behave, just like human children need to be trained, or they all turn ino ********. This doesn't apply to just pitbulls either.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    My son had a fire at his house so I had to babysit his dog. It is a pit bull mix. The dog is very docile and friendly. Our next door neighbor has a son (age 14) who jumps on a trampoline next to our fence. On my side of the fence is a shed. My neighbors son often jumped over the fence and climbed on the roof of my shed to jump onto his trampoline to get a bigger bounce. The pit bull mix saw the kid on our side of the fence and followed him over the fence (jumping a six foot wooden fence.) (The dog used the box the neighbors son had put against the fence and shed to help him get over the fence and onto my shed roof.)The dog never hurt anybody or even growled. He just wanted to play. The neighbor made a big deal, called the dog catcher and threatened to shoot the dog with his shotgun. Yes my neighbor is an A-hole and is often a drunken A-hole. I did not tell him about his son jumping off the roof. I had a quiet discussion with the son. The dad has beaten the son before and nothing has been done, even though it has been reported, but that is a way OT discussion.

    I guess the moral of the story is don't shoot the dog unless you have to. It isn't usually the dogs fault.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    If the dogs are allowed to run wide and act as these dogs were, they will everytime turn into problems. They need to be trained to behave, just like human children need to be trained, or they all turn ino ********. This doesn't apply to just pitbulls either.
    Agreed. Moral of the story? We should probably shoot those damned kids that won't stay out of our yards too.

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    Thundar wrote:
    My son had a fire at his house so I had to babysit his dog. It is a pit bull mix. The dog is very docile and friendly. Our next door neighbor has a son (age 14) who jumps on a trampoline next to our fence. On my side of the fence is a shed. My neighbors son often jumped over the fence and climbed on the roof of my shed to jump onto his trampoline to get a bigger bounce. The pit bull mix saw the kid on our side of the fence and followed him over the fence (jumping a six foot wooden fence.) (The dog used the box the neighbors son had put against the fence and shed to help him get over the fence and onto my shed roof.)The dog never hurt anybody or even growled. He just wanted to play. The neighbor made a big deal, called the dog catcher and threatened to shoot the dog with his shotgun. Yes my neighbor is an A-hole and is often a drunken A-hole. I did not tell him about his son jumping off the roof. I had a quiet discussion with the son. The dad has beaten the son before and nothing has been done, even though it has been reported, but that is a way OT discussion.

    I guess the moral of the story is don't shoot the dog unless you have to. It isn't usually the dogs fault.

    You're right. It is usually the dog owners fault but what choice did the shooter have in this case. I would have done the same thing if I were in his shoes. I certainly am not going to try and wrestle a dog that is trying to attack me in my own yard.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    joeroket wrote:
    You're right. It is usually the dog owners fault but what choice did the shooter have in this case. I would have done the same thing if I were in his shoes. I certainly am not going to try and wrestle a dog that is trying to attack me in my own yard.


    I agree with you. We must remember. These were dogs and not people. It is wrong to equate the two.

    My dog is like a member of the family. He is the little brother my son never had.

    I truly love that dog and because I do I have trained it and I keep it in a fenced yard, when it is not on a leash, walking or in the house.

    My dog is a Black Lab, and does not have a mean bone in his body, BUT if my dog did what those dogs did and came at someone, in their yard like those dogs did, and he shot him like that man did....I would cry from a great loss, BUT I would not blame the man and I would pay any and all damages.

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    Sa45auto wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    ............Yeah he should have shot the________ owner. Who didn't bother to take proper care of his animals. Just like you should smack the parents of unruly children rather than the child. Oh yeah and killing some one else animals is harmless? Like I said he should be shot for felony stupid.
    Parents are responsible for the actions of their children, both legally and morally, and owners are responsible for the actions of their animals, both legally and morally, BUT you do not advocate the taking of a human life over the actions of an animal, unless that animal was trained and used as a weapon of murder......lest you become the animal.

    The man had every right and duty to dispatch the animals and the owner of the dogs should pay for any and all damages to the fence, chicken coop and chickens.

    I dearly love dogs, but any doge of mine that shows any aggressive behavior is toast. Some animals should never be kept as pets.
    Under those circumstances he did have a right to shoot the dogs,and had no obligation to wait until a chicken was killed first. One of the dogs was in with the chickens and when it ran out, charged at him.

    Don't get me wrong, because I too love dogs, but I have also had to shoot several on duty. This is not a stereotype or ragging on a certain breed, but all the dogs I've shot have been pit bulls. This is usually due to to the fact that the owners are often irresponsible jerks who teach the dogs to fight and be mean.

    Some seek to own pit bulls so they can be "fighting dogs" and their owners are proud to tell you about it. These are people who should not own pets, as they are clearly too immature to care for them properly. The other responsibility with a poweful dog is to make sure that it is under control and/or contained. Letting them run/get loose is opening up a huge liability for the owner.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Sa45auto wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    ............Yeah he should have shot the________ owner. Who didn't bother to take proper care of his animals. Just like you should smack the parents of unruly children rather than the child. Oh yeah and killing some one else animals is harmless? Like I said he should be shot for felony stupid.
    Parents are responsible for the actions of their children, both legally and morally, and owners are responsible for the actions of their animals, both legally and morally, BUT you do not advocate the taking of a human life over the actions of an animal, unless that animal was trained and used as a weapon of murder......lest you become the animal.

    The man had every right and duty to dispatch the animals and the owner of the dogs should pay for any and all damages to the fence, chicken coop and chickens.

    I dearly love dogs, but any doge of mine that shows any aggressive behavior is toast. Some animals should never be kept as pets.
    So you advocate letting the morons of the world do as the wish, causing the rest of us mental andemotional harm along with physical harm sometimes and that they never be punished. I value a chickens life above a moronic animal owner who accepts no responsiblity for there actions that he made no attempt to curb. You are way to PC for me and are part of the reason the world is in the state it is in. Respect the rights of the criminal and stupid but trample on the rights of the good citizens.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Fine them, yes.....Jail time, yes......Permanent Dirt Nap, hell no.

    There have always been stupid people. There will always be stupid people. If you seriously advocated killingthe stupid people, count yourself in the group and please proceed to the front of the line.

  24. #24
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    It is illegal to fire a gun in the city limits, Blatman said, but residents have a right to protect their property. The police report, however, will be sent to the city attorney for review, he said.



    How do you protect your property if you can't fire when necessary?

  25. #25
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    Decoligny wrote:
    Fine them, yes.....Jail time, yes......Permanent Dirt Nap, hell no.

    There have always been stupid people. There will always be stupid people. If you seriously advocated killingthe stupid people, count yourself in the group and please proceed to the front of the line.
    The trouble we have now is that the stupid people are out repoducing the normal people about 3 to one. Their learning curve is so slow that fines orjail don't work, just look at the repeat offender stats. If we left Nature to her own devices instead of baby sitting these dummies they would die but we don't anymore because of all this PC crap.

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