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  1. #1
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    [size=I hope this is sufficient enough to justify at least this one---][/size]

    [size=Brandishing ][/size]

    At this time there is no actual "legal" definition of "Brandishing" contained within Michigan laws... however Attorney General Granholm defines "Brandishing" in Opinion # 7101:

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/d...00s/op10176.htm

    in relation to a reserve police officer. The pertinent part of all that is the fact that the Attorney General referred to the dictionary definition of "Brandishing" when forming her opinion. The same dictionary definition that would be applied to a citizen in determining "Brandishing".

    [size="Brandishing" requires intent to intimidate.][/size]


    [size=
    ][/size]
    [size=There is a difference between moving a garment to expose a gun in order to let someone know you mean business and moving that garment to show someone your new gun (or the wind blowing a jacket open briefly). One has the intent to intimidate (brandishing) and the other has no such intent (no crime).][/size]

    Open carry in and of itself has no intention to intimidate. It is just a gun in a holster. It is possible a case for "Brandishing" could be made depending on where/when a person was open carrying. Carrying openly at 0 dark thirty in the slums could be interpreted as either "Brandishing" or common sense, depending on the intent of the person carrying, but finding out who believes who in court would be expensive.
    And PDogSniper is correct.... open carry in Michigan is legal simply because there is no legal language that makes it illegal. And, because there is no law to go against local areas can make their own ordinances if they wish. It is up to you to know all the local ordinances for every area you go to/are in if you decide to open carry.
    As for what would happen if a person does open carry? Depends greatly on location. In the Upper Penninsula's rural areas most likely not a thing would happen other than weird looks from the tourists... and maybe a cop would stop and have a little chat just to see if you are a nut or not and, if not, you are on your way. However, in downtown Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, or any large city, open carry would result in plenty of police scrutiny most likely ending up with a secondary offense like disturbing the peace, inciting a public disturbance, or some other similar charge, simply because open carry is legal... so you can't be charged with that... but open carry is frowned upon where it is not commonly seen so a message will be sent that, although legal, it isn't wise to open carry in densely populated areas.
    In short... open carry is legal in Michigan (depending on local ordinances) but, unless a person uses discretion as to where and when they open carry, plenty of hassle/attorney bills/arrests/convictions on lesser charges are a very real hazard.
    That doesn't mean no one should ever open carry in Michigan... it just means to pick and choose where/when to open carry. Before ownership changed hands one convience store owner near where I live was happy as can be every time I open carried in his establishment. He liked the message it sent to his generally not so wonderful customers. The new owner however, does not have that point of view (although he supports concealed carry) so open carry there is no longer wise.

    So... know your local ordinances... choose where and when to open carry wisely... expect to have a few polite interviews with police occasionally... and carry on!


  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    WARCHILD wrote:
    [size=I hope this is sufficient enough to justify at least this one---]

    [size=Brandishing ]

    At this time there is no actual "legal" definition of "Brandishing" contained within Michigan laws... however Attorney General Granholm defines "Brandishing" in Opinion # 7101:

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/d...00s/op10176.htm

    in relation to a reserve police officer. The pertinent part of all that is the fact that the Attorney General referred to the dictionary definition of "Brandishing" when forming her opinion. The same dictionary definition that would be applied to a citizen in determining "Brandishing".

    [size="Brandishing" requires intent to intimidate.]


    [size=
    ]
    [size=There is a difference between moving a garment to expose a gun in order to let someone know you mean business and moving that garment to show someone your new gun (or the wind blowing a jacket open briefly). One has the intent to intimidate (brandishing) and the other has no such intent (no crime).]

    Open carry in and of itself has no intention to intimidate. It is just a gun in a holster. It is possible a case for "Brandishing" could be made depending on where/when a person was open carrying. Carrying openly at 0 dark thirty in the slums could be interpreted as either "Brandishing" or common sense, depending on the intent of the person carrying, but finding out who believes who in court would be expensive.
    And PDogSniper is correct.... open carry in Michigan is legal simply because there is no legal language that makes it illegal. And, because there is no law to go against local areas can make their own ordinances if they wish. It is up to you to know all the local ordinances for every area you go to/are in if you decide to open carry.
    As for what would happen if a person does open carry? Depends greatly on location. In the Upper Penninsula's rural areas most likely not a thing would happen other than weird looks from the tourists... and maybe a cop would stop and have a little chat just to see if you are a nut or not and, if not, you are on your way. However, in downtown Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, or any large city, open carry would result in plenty of police scrutiny most likely ending up with a secondary offense like disturbing the peace, inciting a public disturbance, or some other similar charge, simply because open carry is legal... so you can't be charged with that... but open carry is frowned upon where it is not commonly seen so a message will be sent that, although legal, it isn't wise to open carry in densely populated areas.
    In short... open carry is legal in Michigan (depending on local ordinances) but, unless a person uses discretion as to where and when they open carry, plenty of hassle/attorney bills/arrests/convictions on lesser charges are a very real hazard.
    That doesn't mean no one should ever open carry in Michigan... it just means to pick and choose where/when to open carry. Before ownership changed hands one convience store owner near where I live was happy as can be every time I open carried in his establishment. He liked the message it sent to his generally not so wonderful customers. The new owner however, does not have that point of view (although he supports concealed carry) so open carry there is no longer wise.

    So... know your local ordinances... choose where and when to open carry wisely... expect to have a few polite interviews with police occasionally... and carry on!
    This is a discussion best had on the Michigan page...oh yeah it already has been.

    Warchild, what part of preemption don't you understand. A local government CAN NOT have a law about firearms that is more restrictive than the State. The can have all the ordinances they want about open/concealed carry that are not legal. I carry in Lansing and the surrounding areas, with zero problems. You can carry anywhere (Private property can have their own rules)in the state except the restricted areas mention on your license. If you don't have a license you can't carry in those areas in MCL 750234d.

    Again, you can be arrested for anything, what counts is if the charge sticks. And as faras my research has reveled so far no charges of brandishing have been successful base solely on open carry.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I do understand. I said I would post what Doc's I based my info on. That's what this posting was about. I know you can be arrested and charged for anything. In this country it's always been-- guilty till proven innocent--- my only point with this brandishing definition is-- open carry or the wind blowing your shirt open isn't brandishing. however if you expose, draw or use the exposer in an intimidating or threatening manner, you have a better chance of being charged with brandishing. that's all I was trying to point out, even in the original posting. I trust you will keep and eye on me though. It appears you're not going to let me get away with anything, at least that's what I'm counting on.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    WARCHILD wrote:
    I do understand. I said I would post what Doc's I based my info on. That's what this posting was about. I know you can be arrested and charged for anything. In this country it's always been-- guilty till proven innocent--- my only point with this brandishing definition is-- open carry or the wind blowing your shirt open isn't brandishing. however if you expose, draw or use the exposer in an intimidating or threatening manner, you have a better chance of being charged with brandishing. that's all I was trying to point out, even in the original posting. I trust you will keep and eye on me though. It appears you're not going to let me get away with anything, at least that's what I'm counting on.
    You did post the doc, but then pontificated about local ordinances etc. I also mentioned that brandishing has been discussed on the Michigan page. I also pointed out that people openly carry in some of the places you mentioned without incidence, you even mention that yourself. Though your example of carrying in a store was pointless as we should all know that private property need not allow concealed or open carry.

    It's not just me watching, others are too, we want correct information. Opinions need to be stated as such. Again, nothing personal. We are in this together.

    As an aside I have observed that the majority of those that have been "hassled" by LEO's are between 18 and 25 years old. Demeanor, dress, and age all play a part in open carry. Sad, but in my opinion true.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Yeah, all you say is true. I was only commenting on my experiences with open carry in Mi. and making the point private property does have the right to exclude oc. I do agree completely with your age assesment. Me, I'm 55 and too old for any BS and don't plan on looking for any. Most often I cc just to avoid it.

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