Why OC as opposed to CC?

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Hello, new here and curious. I have a few basic questions that might help me understand better the OC movement. First: Why OC? Yea, it's your right (in some places) but why not CC? I had a CC permit before I was a cop and I know it's a pain in the ass to obtain and expensive. If it were free, would you prefer it? I never OC when I'm off duty. Even on duty many times I CC due to my position (detective). Is it just the fees and hassle of obtaining a CC permit? Personally, I don't like the added attention it draws. I know some say it may hinder access to a weapon, but I think it is your responsibility to be proficient in drawing your weapon from whatever the configuration you choose.

Also, what would you like to see from LEOs with respect to individuals who OC? Thanks - David

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Welcome to the forum David.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum6/

If you take a little time and read through the "Why Open Carry?" section, I think you will find a myriad of reasons, all valid to the person OCing.

Personally, I think of it as an effective deterant to criminal activity. As most criminals are predatory in nature, the naturally look for the weakest target available. A man with a gun on his hip is far from a weak target.

As far as what most of us here would like to see from LEOs, I think common courtesy, and respect. Respect for both the OCer as a person, and respect for the legal practice of Open Carrying. Too many stories here about LEOs who put thier own "preference" that civilians not carry a weapon above what the law actually says.

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Hi David and welcome! On another forum that I no longer frequent (THR), this question came up (yet again) and OC'ers were described as "John Wayne Wannabees". My reply is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3477846&postcount=128

and here it is quoted:

Alphazulu6 wrote:

Quote:
Why honestly would anyone want to open carry? I see it here in Colorado...and sometimes at Wal-Mart. Get a CC license. Its just stupid to walk around trying to look like John Wayne. But make it illegal to do so...absolutely not. Blowing your nose isnt illegal but its gross to see someone do it onto the sidewalk at the bus stop. Same thing w/ firearm open carry at the grocery store. There is just no need for it when you can get a license to carry concealed. I dont want to look at your 1911 and neither does anyone else.

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Not everyone that OC or CC's for that matter is a John Wayne wannabe. I'll guarantee you I've seen a couple OC'ers that fit that bill when they first come to OCDO but they are the exception and not the rule and most eventually see the error of their ways. I've also heard a large number of CC'ers claim that they want the tactical advantage in a gunfight as if they hope to be in one and play the hero. (IMHO that is more "John Wayne" than just OC'ing a gun. And far more dangerous.)

The best way to survive a gunfight is to not be in one, while at the same time being acutely aware and prepared for one. For me, OC does that far better than CC ever could. It keeps BG's away because 99 44/100% of the time criminals fear responsible citizens with guns.

When I walk down the street nicely dressed with my family or in a mall, store or restaurant, not only am I keeping BG's away, but I'm breaking the stereotype that the Brady Bunch would have the rest of America believe that only BG's have guns.

For me, OC is the ultimate BG repellent!

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DMB wrote:

Hello, new here and curious. I have a few basic questions that might help me understand better the OC movement. First: Why OC? Yea, it's your right (in some places) but why not CC? I had a CC permit before I was a cop and I know it's a pain in the ass to obtain and expensive. If it were free, would you prefer it? I never OC when I'm off duty. Even on duty many times I CC due to my position (detective). Is it just the fees and hassle of obtaining a CC permit? Personally, I don't like the added attention it draws. I know some say it may hinder access to a weapon, but I think it is your responsibility to be proficient in drawing your weapon from whatever the configuration you choose.

Also, what would you like to see from LEOs with respect to individuals who OC? Thanks - David

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Just remember that if a person OC's he/sheDOES NOThave anything to hide. Remember that criminals DON'T OC cause THEY have something to HIDE

Don't pull a gun at a person that PEACEABLY walking down the street ie, "Assult with a Deadly Weapon" even by an Officer of the Law, just because there is a gun on the hip VISABLY. If you can SEE the gun there is NO threat.

Be instead afraid of the CRIMINAL that CC ILLEGALLY and can walk up to you and pull out and "pop" you. This is why I enjoy when I see people OC around me rather than CC.

Just my .44

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Well, I am one LEO that supports citizens carrying guns. Still haven't made up my mind on the OC vs CC, guess I have a lot of reading to do. As a cop, I always think of the "what could go wrong with this scenario" when I think about Joe Public and OC. Not meaning the carrier doing anything wrong, but say for instance a Snatch and Grab. I'm not sure if even the bravest of criminals would approach someone OC in a upfront manner, but definitely may try a grab when the person isn't expecting it. After all, that's what criminals do. They cheat. So in that respect, I guess I have a lot of research to do before I formulate an opinion. I know there is plenty posts out there on the topic so I won't ask any of you to re-hash it ...yet again.

I will attempt to defend my brother officers as much as I can, after all we are not perfect. Many of us have no higher education, etc. etc. We will make mistakes when it comes to OC, so just continue to be cordial, and professional and try to educate us. I also realize that there are a lot of John Wayne type cops out there too that think a badge means they ARE the Law. Again, just try to do the right thing. These guys usually weed themselves out as agencies are seeking more professional officers these days. I'm around if anyone ever wants a no - BS Cop's opinion on something. Thanks for the welcome. - David

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DMB wrote:

Well, I am one LEO that supports citizens carrying guns. Still haven't made up my mind on the OC vs CC, guess I have a lot of reading to do. As a cop, I always think of the "what could go wrong with this scenario" when I think about Joe Public and OC. Not meaning the carrier doing anything wrong, but say for instance a Snatch and Grab. I'm not sure if even the bravest of criminals would approach someone OC in a upfront manner, but definitely may try a grab when the person isn't expecting it. After all, that's what criminals do. They cheat. So in that respect, I guess I have a lot of research to do before I formulate an opinion. I know there is plenty posts out there on the topic so I won't ask any of you to re-hash it ...yet again.

I will attempt to defend my brother officers as much as I can, after all we are not perfect. Many of us have no higher education, etc. etc. We will make mistakes when it comes to OC, so just continue to be cordial, and professional and try to educate us. I also realize that there are a lot of John Wayne type cops out there too that think a badge means they ARE the Law. Again, just try to do the right thing. These guys usually weed themselves out as agencies are seeking more professional officers these days. I'm around if anyone ever wants a no - BS Cop's opinion on something. Thanks for the welcome. - David

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Yes...,Welcome Sir,

If you feel uncertain about "snatch and grab"get a SERPA CQC Level II for your shooter. An Officer tried during a detainment take my firearm and I had to INSTRUCT how to get it out of the holster. I will CC with an "open top" or thumb snap holter but OC with a Serpa holster even as a shoulder holster.

REALLY take a look at the Serpa Holsters and you will be REALLY surprised how well they work.

TJ

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I do like those Serpa Holsters. I've got a drawer full of holsters from over the years, and the Serpa is one of the best. I only OC at work and we use the Safariland with the roll top hood. It's not bad, but a little on the bulky side if I'm wearing a suit. - David

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Also, what would you like to see from LEOs with respect to individuals who OC?

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I'm glad you asked.

First, I've OC'd for the most part for 4years here in West Tennessee. It's not a traditional OC state like AZ or some of the others. The majority of folk in my neck of the woods loves the idea of honest citizens being armed but mention OC and you'd think you just insulted their mother. As far as your primary question about "why” I’ll ask you to read my essay I posted for the guys here last month? I've attached it in PDF format for easy reading. I'd appreciate your feedback.

All I want from any LEO is to realize that if someone is OCing they're most likely not a threat. Have you ever seen a thug wearing his piece holstered in the open for all to see? I haven’t. The guy that robbed my mom back in 1999 didn’t have his out. The scum that rob, rape, and murder don’t wear there’s in the open either. If you have any doubts just ask to see my permit and I will gladly show you. If you don’t agree with it out in the open that’s fine, but don’t use your authority to scold me or try and scare me into changing my mind. I am well acquainted with two Jackson Police Officers and hope to soon work alongside them. Neither one really agrees with my view but both say they respect my choice to OC.



Oh, and like everyone else said, welcome to the board. :celebrate

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DMB wrote:

Well, I am one LEO that supports citizens carrying guns. Still haven't made up my mind on the OC vs CC, guess I have a lot of reading to do. As a cop, I always think of the "what could go wrong with this scenario" when I think about Joe Public and OC. Not meaning the carrier doing anything wrong, but say for instance a Snatch and Grab. I'm not sure if even the bravest of criminals would approach someone OC in a upfront manner, but definitely may try a grab when the person isn't expecting it. After all, that's what criminals do. They cheat. So in that respect, I guess I have a lot of research to do before I formulate an opinion. I know there is plenty posts out there on the topic so I won't ask any of you to re-hash it ...yet again.

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Yes, this comes up a lot. "What happens if someone does a gun-grab?" Well, my opinion on that is this: if you are that unaware of your surroundings, and someone grabs your gun, you would be better off not carrying at all. There was one story I've seen (only one) where someone OCing had their gun taken from them, and the guy was obviously in condition white, completely oblivious to his surroundings.

anytime i'm in a convienience store, or the gorcery store and i'm standing in line with people behind me, I am usually facing in a direction where it would be very difficult to even grab the butt of my gun, let alone get a full grip on it, and depress the locking mechanism on my Serpa CQC. Surroundings and body position are very important when you are close to others and OCing. i would probably never Oc in a crowd unless i absolutely had to walk through them.

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Because I can?

In truth, I would rather conceal carry, but I don't have the permit yet (working on it) so I cannot do it legally. So I open carry if I'm going somewhere where I'd feel safer carrying a gun (I.E., at the office alone after hours or if I'm delivering food to my girlfriend to a location where she's working armed as a security guard). When I get the CC permit, I'll conceal carry to most of those locations instead. I would rather choose open carry over conceal carrying when I'm on my own property or if I'm hiking in the wilderness.

Also, what would you like to see from LEOs with respect to individuals who OC?

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The same reaction I got from people the first time I OCed into a Subway restaurant to grab some food to bring to my girlfriend at an armed post: no reaction. Except for a young girl who kept staring at it (I smiled and waved to her), none of the other customers or employees didn't even acknowledge to me that I had a gun on my hip.

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DMB wrote:

Not meaning the carrier doing anything wrong, but say for instance a Snatch and Grab.

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I think you'll find that most OC'ers have put a fair amount of thought into this issue. Not only because it's the most common question that comes up when people start questioning OC, but because we worry about it ourselves. I would really, really hate to have someone hurt with my gun.

Not all of us come to the same conclusions, of course. Some focus on situational awareness as the primary solution, and may even augment it by practicing techniques for defeating a gun grab. Most, I think, combine a focus on situational awareness with various retention practices and technologies.

Personally, I OC with a CQC Serpa, canted grip-forward and positioned forward from my strong side, at about the 2 o'clock position. Maybe 1:30. The forward cant makes it harder for someone to get the right angle to be able to both grab the grip and hit the finger release with one hand. Sliding the holster around to my front means that they'd have to reach around my body where it would be very difficult for me not to see their action.

Also, I try to position myself so that people are to my left (weak side) rather than directly behind me, and if there's any possibility that someone could be behind me and especially if they're slightly to my right, I position my arm at my side so that my arm touches or nearly touches the butt of the gun. My hand stays well away from it, but my arm is in a blocking position. If I get nervous about someone being close, I just move my arm forward a bit to shield the Serpa release button. I avoid crowds but if I had no choice, I'd place my arm firmly on top of the grip.

Finally, I've practiced a bit with my wife to develop my own response strategies to a grab attempt; either chopping down with my weak side hand or swinging my strong side arm up to knock a grabbing hand away, while pivoting away from the attacker to remove the firearm from their reach and open up some distance. While pivoting, of course, my strong-side hand goes to the grip with the index finger on the Serpa release, ready to draw.

I'm sure not everyone here has put as much effort into retention as I have, but I'm also sure that some have done more, and that nearly everyone has at least put some thought into it.

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Pretty good essay buddy. I enjoyed the read and pretty much agree with all you said. I think I fall into the "better served to CC in a temporary social environment" category, but that's just me. I wear a gun every day as a LEO, so sometimes an ankle holster or ITW holster is a welcome relief. Especially ina setting like say, church. Anyhow,thanks for the welcome. - David

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Well I am glad that civilians practice weapon retention. I am a defensive tactics instructor and that is serious subject with me. You brought up a good point as well about proximity. Why are police officers killed with their own gun? They let the perpetrator get too close. Simple as that.

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DMB - Yes, although I am a staunch advocate of open carry, when I am in my church and I think wearing concealed would serve a more noble purpose (not distracting from the pastor) I conceal it. When folks ask why I wear to church (as if bad guys can't go there) I say look at the Colorodo church shootings and tell me evil people don't target churches.

Thanks again for asking our opinion on the matter of LEO encounters in your first post.

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At least you have the option of carrying in church. Louisiana does not allow firearms in churches, synagogs, or any religious building, even with a CHP. I still don't understand why. didn't the recent church shootings teach them anything?

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WhiteRabbit22 wrote:

At least you have the option of carrying in church. Louisiana does not allow firearms in churches, synagogs, or any religious building, even with a CHP. I still don't understand why. didn't the recent church shootings teach them anything?

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I really don't understand the rationale behind this. Many people ask me why I would support citizens carrying weapons when I'm a cop. It's simple. If you can pass the background check for a CCH, then you definitely aren't some shithead and I as a cop certainly have nothing to fear from you carrying a gun. So why then does the mere fact that I have a badge allow me to carry a gun in a church when I am off duty? I am no more of an upstanding citizen than a CCH holder. In fact, he whole CCH process I went through many years ago was more in depth than the process I went through with the Sheriff's Office with respect to the application. OC is essentially the same minus the paperwork. You can still have some wingnut CC just as easy as OC. Hell, you have cops with a badge that break the law. There is no way to prevent this without taking away the right to carry.

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Hi David, I commend you for being a New Orleans policeman in the first place. I lived it N.O. for many years worked in the Quarter's . As for the price of the permit costing so much , you being a policeman it should be free. And i also think you should carry off duty as well. bit that's N.O. for you they will tax the side walk in front of your house if they could. when personal property tax came out i was so mad. its just more money the thiefs could get. I lived in San Francisco for a few years and NEVER told any one i was from N.O. The schools are a discrace! They move you on to the next grade by your hight not what you know. so you know alot of people have jobs in N.O. that shouldn't . But they got that deplomia. It gets me sick. My Father was NOPD and his two were NOPD and our cousin was NOPD. But when they were on the force there were NO blacks Americans on it. I guess they never could pass the test. I don't know why it was like that. as far as i feel N.O. isn't all that. It is to alot of N.O. people because they never been anyother place in the country.So of course N.O. is all that. To me N.O. is a toilet and always be one. and i take myHat Off to you for putting your life on the line for like the mayor said a fewknucle heads out there. LOL. they have more dope heads in N.O. they should open 10 methadone clinic'sand just maybe the city would have a chance. make them go to the clinic and drink it so they cant sell it. but theres always something else you guys have to deal with. but taking the methadone away from the people is only going to cause your job to be harder. good luck.

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Karecajoe54 wrote:

Hi David, I commend you for being a New Orleans policeman in the first place. I lived it N.O. for many years worked in the Quarter's . As for the price of the permit costing so much , you being a policeman it should be free. And i also think you should carry off duty as well. bit that's N.O. for you they will tax the side walk in front of your house if they could. when personal property tax came out i was so mad. its just more money the thiefs could get. I lived in San Francisco for a few years and NEVER told any one i was from N.O. The schools are a discrace! They move you on to the next grade by your hight not what you know. so you know alot of people have jobs in N.O. that shouldn't . But they got that deplomia. It gets me sick. My Father was NOPD and his two were NOPD and our cousin was NOPD. But when they were on the force there were NO blacks Americans on it. I guess they never could pass the test. I don't know why it was like that. as far as i feel N.O. isn't all that. It is to alot of N.O. people because they never been anyother place in the country.So of course N.O. is all that. To me N.O. is a toilet and always be one. and i take myHat Off to you for putting your life on the line for like the mayor said a fewknucle heads out there. LOL. they have more dope heads in N.O. they should open 10 methadone clinic'sand just maybe the city would have a chance. make them go to the clinic and drink it so they cant sell it. but theres always something else you guys have to deal with. but taking the methadone away from the people is only going to cause your job to be harder. good luck.

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Well, that's certainly an interesting post Joe, but I never said I was a N.O. police officer. I AM a police officer but not anywhere around N.O. I obviously don't need a permit, and my comment regarding the price wasreferring to citizens. BTW, I carry everywhere.

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DMB wrote:

Karecajoe54 wrote:

Hi David, I commend you for being a New Orleans policeman in the first place. I lived it N.O. for many years worked in the Quarter's . As for the price of the permit costing so much , you being a policeman it should be free. And i also think you should carry off duty as well. bit that's N.O. for you they will tax the side walk in front of your house if they could. when personal property tax came out i was so mad. its just more money the thiefs could get. I lived in San Francisco for a few years and NEVER told any one i was from N.O. The schools are a discrace! They move you on to the next grade by your hight not what you know. so you know alot of people have jobs in N.O. that shouldn't . But they got that deplomia. It gets me sick. My Father was NOPD and his two were NOPD and our cousin was NOPD. But when they were on the force there were NO blacks Americans on it. I guess they never could pass the test. I don't know why it was like that. as far as i feel N.O. isn't all that. It is to alot of N.O. people because they never been anyother place in the country.So of course N.O. is all that. To me N.O. is a toilet and always be one. and i take myHat Off to you for putting your life on the line for like the mayor said a fewknucle heads out there. LOL. they have more dope heads in N.O. they should open 10 methadone clinic'sand just maybe the city would have a chance. make them go to the clinic and drink it so they cant sell it. but theres always something else you guys have to deal with. but taking the methadone away from the people is only going to cause your job to be harder. good luck.

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Well, that's certainly an interesting post Joe, but I never said I was a N.O. police officer. I AM a police officer but not anywhere around N.O. I obviously don't need a permit, and my comment regarding the price wasreferring to citizens. BTW, I carry everywhere.

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David, Joe sometimes post from a different world.

I went back and read all your post to see if you ever said anything about N.O.

Thanks for helping watch over us.

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DMB wrote:

Hello, new here and curious. I have a few basic questions that might help me understand better the OC movement. First: Why OC? Yea, it's your right (in some places) but why not CC? I had a CC permit before I was a cop and I know it's a pain in the ass to obtain and expensive. If it were free, would you prefer it? I never OC when I'm off duty. Even on duty many times I CC due to my position (detective). Is it just the fees and hassle of obtaining a CC permit? Personally, I don't like the added attention it draws. I know some say it may hinder access to a weapon, but I think it is your responsibility to be proficient in drawing your weapon from whatever the configuration you choose.

Also, what would you like to see from LEOs with respect to individuals who OC? Thanks - David

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David I have CC for the last 11 yrs. and I CC because that's the way I prefer to carry. Don't want the shoot me first deal.