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WI OC Needs Better Organization in order to Succeed
- Thread starter Pointman
- Start date
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
Thank you for a lot of work in careful reading and writing. But where to begin?
We do need a leader and organizer with an acceptable background and leadership skills. Unfortunately gun carry has been so politicised that I have little hope for any one that I can trust. If we attempt a consistent message then contrary subtleties immediately interfere. We have no principles that will not be compromised by eager leaders.
I advocate the uninfringed Second Amendment (u2A), as principle that will not be compromised, to disarm all of the liars that would make their livelyhood by selling something else (with respect, GG, but utmost disrespect to the NRA, Dick Baker, Fendry et cetera ad nauseam).
I speak for the u2A in my public persona - at my fraternal organization meetings, and avocation meetings. I will, in time, introduce my electorate/constituency enmasse to my u2A stand. I will do what I can as an elected official in one of the very smallest constituencies in the State. (Re who I spoke to and what I said.) And I may not be elected. And I have other interests.
I will remain skeptical of others telling me what is good or better without very good arguments. These arguments need to be concise, with all the weasel words edited out, literate/grammatic and formally logical. <<The Argumentation series from the Learning Company is a good beginning - and it is difficult to absorb, staying awake through twelve hours of it.>>
Thank you for your great work and I will read with interest.
Thank you for a lot of work in careful reading and writing. But where to begin?
We do need a leader and organizer with an acceptable background and leadership skills. Unfortunately gun carry has been so politicised that I have little hope for any one that I can trust. If we attempt a consistent message then contrary subtleties immediately interfere. We have no principles that will not be compromised by eager leaders.
I advocate the uninfringed Second Amendment (u2A), as principle that will not be compromised, to disarm all of the liars that would make their livelyhood by selling something else (with respect, GG, but utmost disrespect to the NRA, Dick Baker, Fendry et cetera ad nauseam).
I speak for the u2A in my public persona - at my fraternal organization meetings, and avocation meetings. I will, in time, introduce my electorate/constituency enmasse to my u2A stand. I will do what I can as an elected official in one of the very smallest constituencies in the State. (Re who I spoke to and what I said.) And I may not be elected. And I have other interests.
I will remain skeptical of others telling me what is good or better without very good arguments. These arguments need to be concise, with all the weasel words edited out, literate/grammatic and formally logical. <<The Argumentation series from the Learning Company is a good beginning - and it is difficult to absorb, staying awake through twelve hours of it.>>
Thank you for your great work and I will read with interest.
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
You will note that I have PM disabled but my e-mail address is public. I will say what I will openly and will respect respectful communications' privacy. My crap/spam filter is quite agile.
I also suggest that we are not particularly collegial here, coming from such diverse backgrounds and, thus, humor and 'smilies' are too often mis-leading to use.
A picture may be worth a thousand words but then a 'smilie' is a thousand words of nonsense and a video a gigabyte of bathetic crap.
You will note that I have PM disabled but my e-mail address is public. I will say what I will openly and will respect respectful communications' privacy. My crap/spam filter is quite agile.
I also suggest that we are not particularly collegial here, coming from such diverse backgrounds and, thus, humor and 'smilies' are too often mis-leading to use.
A picture may be worth a thousand words but then a 'smilie' is a thousand words of nonsense and a video a gigabyte of bathetic crap.
Lammie
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Pointman; Most of your post is well taken. However the comparison to driving and firearms disturbs me. I have discussed the difference between having driving privleges and firearm rights before. A drivers license is a privilege to drive. As such it can bring with it the requirements for training, rules of the road, physical qualifications and fees. The use of that privilege can be removed at will by the Department of Transportation. Rights on the other hand are granted by the federal and state constitutions. Rights belong to all law abiding citizens. They come without segreation or personal qualifications. They don't require we be trained in them before we practise them and they don't require a fee before we use them. Rights cannot be removed at will by the courts or by the legislature. They can only be interpreted by the courts and they can only be removed or changed by voter referendum. That is how our state right to keep and bear arms was added to Wisconsin's constitution on November 30, 1998. "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any lawful purpose". The amendment is there until the people vote to remove it.
It is unfortunate that there are regulations and law enforcement police power tactics that try to minimize the importance of Article i Section 25 and also it's companion statute 66.0409 (the preemption statute). Each of those impediments must be attacked and resolved on their own merits, however, comparing our state constitutional rights to the privlege of driving a car is comparing grapes to grapefruit. I will never agree to permits, fees or contrary regulations in order to excercise my constitutional rights.
Having said that, and making my position indelible, I will say that I agree with your phylosophy that some organization beyond this forum is required to resolve the many issues that have been discussed. Forums are usually a place for venting and from that regard they are extremely important because they represent the 'pulse' of an issue. They are not a venue in which to get something significant to happen.
The only way to get any significant results is through a recognized organization or a state wide organized movement dedicated to the cause. It's easy to write an article and talk about what should be done but it's an entirely different matter in getting it done. I know, I've been there.
CCWTrainer is proposing a "movement" to present petitions to the county boards in order to recognize the right to open carry. The petitions may or may not be sucessful. I hope they are. However, I am suspicious of CCWTrainer's motive. He is a licensed Conceal Carry trainer in Minnesota. As such his income depends on revenues from his training classes. From discussions I've had with some of his students I have no doubt that he provides a very comprehensive and quality training program. I have no doubt that he is dedicated to the CCW movement. And, I have no doubt that he is dedicated to teaching the ramifications of using deadly force. I am suspicious that he is using the petitions to recognize open carry as a prelude to a concealed carry law in Wisconsin. I can support a concealed carry law that would provide an optional privlege to carry at personal discretion, but I won't endorse any CC law that would compromise my open carry rights.
Establishing an organization to promote an issue is not an easy job. It requires filing with the State, by-laws, officers, advertising, gun friendly legal representation, membership, money etc. etc. Being retired and on fixed income I don't have the resources to start sucjh an enterprise and even though I know that "talk is cheap. It takes money to buy whiskey" I have to be content at researching the case law, state law and federal law related to firearms. I have to be content with pounding keys on my keyboard and sharing that research on forums such as this.
As I said earlier Forums aren't the best place to try to make things happen. I have appealed on this forum for Wisconsin members to become proactive and contact their legislative representatives and the news media. Contact them and voice their concerns and opinions on open carry and vehicle carry. I don't know if any have. I haven't found any evidence of it. It is what is badly needed. GJD is the only one I'm aware of that has had the guts to intentionally display his position in public. Too bad he couldn't have had a media representative witness it.
I hope this better explains my position and where I'm coming from. Bottom line is where do we go from here?
Pointman; Most of your post is well taken. However the comparison to driving and firearms disturbs me. I have discussed the difference between having driving privleges and firearm rights before. A drivers license is a privilege to drive. As such it can bring with it the requirements for training, rules of the road, physical qualifications and fees. The use of that privilege can be removed at will by the Department of Transportation. Rights on the other hand are granted by the federal and state constitutions. Rights belong to all law abiding citizens. They come without segreation or personal qualifications. They don't require we be trained in them before we practise them and they don't require a fee before we use them. Rights cannot be removed at will by the courts or by the legislature. They can only be interpreted by the courts and they can only be removed or changed by voter referendum. That is how our state right to keep and bear arms was added to Wisconsin's constitution on November 30, 1998. "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any lawful purpose". The amendment is there until the people vote to remove it.
It is unfortunate that there are regulations and law enforcement police power tactics that try to minimize the importance of Article i Section 25 and also it's companion statute 66.0409 (the preemption statute). Each of those impediments must be attacked and resolved on their own merits, however, comparing our state constitutional rights to the privlege of driving a car is comparing grapes to grapefruit. I will never agree to permits, fees or contrary regulations in order to excercise my constitutional rights.
Having said that, and making my position indelible, I will say that I agree with your phylosophy that some organization beyond this forum is required to resolve the many issues that have been discussed. Forums are usually a place for venting and from that regard they are extremely important because they represent the 'pulse' of an issue. They are not a venue in which to get something significant to happen.
The only way to get any significant results is through a recognized organization or a state wide organized movement dedicated to the cause. It's easy to write an article and talk about what should be done but it's an entirely different matter in getting it done. I know, I've been there.
CCWTrainer is proposing a "movement" to present petitions to the county boards in order to recognize the right to open carry. The petitions may or may not be sucessful. I hope they are. However, I am suspicious of CCWTrainer's motive. He is a licensed Conceal Carry trainer in Minnesota. As such his income depends on revenues from his training classes. From discussions I've had with some of his students I have no doubt that he provides a very comprehensive and quality training program. I have no doubt that he is dedicated to the CCW movement. And, I have no doubt that he is dedicated to teaching the ramifications of using deadly force. I am suspicious that he is using the petitions to recognize open carry as a prelude to a concealed carry law in Wisconsin. I can support a concealed carry law that would provide an optional privlege to carry at personal discretion, but I won't endorse any CC law that would compromise my open carry rights.
Establishing an organization to promote an issue is not an easy job. It requires filing with the State, by-laws, officers, advertising, gun friendly legal representation, membership, money etc. etc. Being retired and on fixed income I don't have the resources to start sucjh an enterprise and even though I know that "talk is cheap. It takes money to buy whiskey" I have to be content at researching the case law, state law and federal law related to firearms. I have to be content with pounding keys on my keyboard and sharing that research on forums such as this.
As I said earlier Forums aren't the best place to try to make things happen. I have appealed on this forum for Wisconsin members to become proactive and contact their legislative representatives and the news media. Contact them and voice their concerns and opinions on open carry and vehicle carry. I don't know if any have. I haven't found any evidence of it. It is what is badly needed. GJD is the only one I'm aware of that has had the guts to intentionally display his position in public. Too bad he couldn't have had a media representative witness it.
I hope this better explains my position and where I'm coming from. Bottom line is where do we go from here?
Shotgun
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
imported post
Pointman wrote:
Pointman wrote:
Whoa, wait a minute.... where does the daycare and church restriction come from?
GJD
Regular Member
imported post
I'm willing to do my part to support OC in Wisconsin. This is a good thread.
I'm willing to do my part to support OC in Wisconsin. This is a good thread.
imported post
Gene German did respond to my original e-mail. He did not mention a $10 fee to attend, and did apologize for the delay in responding, and a good amount of his contact information is included in the footer.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/7963.html
Gene German did respond to my original e-mail. He did not mention a $10 fee to attend, and did apologize for the delay in responding, and a good amount of his contact information is included in the footer.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/7963.html
smithman
Regular Member
imported post
Lammie wrote:
The NRA would have you believe that wisconsinites don't have the "right to carry" at all by telling you that licensed concealed carry is illegal. But apparantly the NRA does not understand the difference between a right and a privledge...something which is licensed is not a right. However, Wisconsinites DO have a right to carry as it is now using OC, and this must never change.
I will always fight for u2A in all aspects by supporting unrestricted CC and OC.
Lammie wrote:
I agree with this statement. WE MUST NEVER LOSE OUR OC RIGHTS. For example, look at Indiana...a state typically friendly to gun owners. There is no legal way to OC or CC without a permit. This must not happen to wisconsin.
The NRA would have you believe that wisconsinites don't have the "right to carry" at all by telling you that licensed concealed carry is illegal. But apparantly the NRA does not understand the difference between a right and a privledge...something which is licensed is not a right. However, Wisconsinites DO have a right to carry as it is now using OC, and this must never change.
I will always fight for u2A in all aspects by supporting unrestricted CC and OC.
Lammie
Campaign Veteran
imported post
For various reasons I will no longer post comments on the Wisconsin forum.
GFD good luck on your endeavors. Don't let talk of threats of disorderly conduct and stories of cop dissapproval deter you from excercising your constitutional authority.
For various reasons I will no longer post comments on the Wisconsin forum.
GFD good luck on your endeavors. Don't let talk of threats of disorderly conduct and stories of cop dissapproval deter you from excercising your constitutional authority.
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
I'm sorry to hear that.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Shotgun
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
imported post
Lammie wrote:
Lammie wrote:
I too am sorry to hear this!
smithman
Regular Member
imported post
I am also sorry to hear that. Lammie you always have good insight.
I am also sorry to hear that. Lammie you always have good insight.
Doug Huffman
Banned
feslandsurveys
New member
imported post
While I am new to this site, I amnot new to open carrying in Wisconsin. As I stated on a previous string on this site, I have been open carrying while working as a Land Surveyor for the last 3 years. I would happilly work with you guys to work towards a CC law, however, if it would in any way hinder our existing right to OC, I could not support that. I've spoken with law officers with a pistol on my hip and never had a problem. One policeman asked why I carried and asked if it was for dogs, I told him no, that it was to prevent arguments, he just laughed and took off. Worked along many state highways with a gun on my hip. Lot of rubber necking cops but never a problem. However, I never carry while working in a city or large village (not only because it might scare people, but I feel that for my situation and in my part of the state it isn'tas important as in the more rural areas).That might be a different story if I was working on the wrong side of Milwaukee orChicago.
I've also had no problem with my handguns unloaded in the case and laid on top of the dash fully visible by anyone passing. I have also spoken with policemen with it thus displayed. I personally think this makes an officer feel that you are not hiding anything. The rule just says, unloaded, magazine removed and no part of gun is visible, (I did read the legal arguments about the trunk in the other threads, so don't throw those at me). However, in my fastened case/hoster they know, without a doubt,it is a pistol.If I carry one of my revolvers with a more open holster, I thenuse a regular gun case while traveling between sites.
So, to those of you who say we have an unusable law in Wisconsin, :banghead:I have to believe you either live in a large metro area, or you have just never tried it and are only going from what that "elected" sheriff person said about disturbing the peace (on a different string) or are just afraid to, or have no need to, opencarry.
The right to open carry has given me a much greater sense of security while working and prevented a multitude of arguments with land owners, which used to be one of the biggest burdens of my job. Thanks for listening.
I have enjoyed reading most of the Wisconsin strings on this site, keep up the good work and I'd be happy to help in the future with whatever assistance you guys might need. You have some really good IANAL people who know an awful lot about case law on gun issues. I know that IANAL either but I know much more case law on land owner rights and boundary disputes case law that 95% of the lawyers I havedealt with in my 14 years as a registered surveyor in Wisconsin, but I can't "legally" give people legal advise about their rights when I am asked at least weekly. Whatever, I am glad we have you "IANAL" people with yourwealth of legal knowledge on gun issues.
Let me know if I can be of assistance in future endeavors.
While I am new to this site, I amnot new to open carrying in Wisconsin. As I stated on a previous string on this site, I have been open carrying while working as a Land Surveyor for the last 3 years. I would happilly work with you guys to work towards a CC law, however, if it would in any way hinder our existing right to OC, I could not support that. I've spoken with law officers with a pistol on my hip and never had a problem. One policeman asked why I carried and asked if it was for dogs, I told him no, that it was to prevent arguments, he just laughed and took off. Worked along many state highways with a gun on my hip. Lot of rubber necking cops but never a problem. However, I never carry while working in a city or large village (not only because it might scare people, but I feel that for my situation and in my part of the state it isn'tas important as in the more rural areas).That might be a different story if I was working on the wrong side of Milwaukee orChicago.
I've also had no problem with my handguns unloaded in the case and laid on top of the dash fully visible by anyone passing. I have also spoken with policemen with it thus displayed. I personally think this makes an officer feel that you are not hiding anything. The rule just says, unloaded, magazine removed and no part of gun is visible, (I did read the legal arguments about the trunk in the other threads, so don't throw those at me). However, in my fastened case/hoster they know, without a doubt,it is a pistol.If I carry one of my revolvers with a more open holster, I thenuse a regular gun case while traveling between sites.
So, to those of you who say we have an unusable law in Wisconsin, :banghead:I have to believe you either live in a large metro area, or you have just never tried it and are only going from what that "elected" sheriff person said about disturbing the peace (on a different string) or are just afraid to, or have no need to, opencarry.
The right to open carry has given me a much greater sense of security while working and prevented a multitude of arguments with land owners, which used to be one of the biggest burdens of my job. Thanks for listening.
I have enjoyed reading most of the Wisconsin strings on this site, keep up the good work and I'd be happy to help in the future with whatever assistance you guys might need. You have some really good IANAL people who know an awful lot about case law on gun issues. I know that IANAL either but I know much more case law on land owner rights and boundary disputes case law that 95% of the lawyers I havedealt with in my 14 years as a registered surveyor in Wisconsin, but I can't "legally" give people legal advise about their rights when I am asked at least weekly. Whatever, I am glad we have you "IANAL" people with yourwealth of legal knowledge on gun issues.
Let me know if I can be of assistance in future endeavors.Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
Pointman wrote:
Just start OCing!
Pointman wrote:
Get real - evenstates where it is clear and common to OC, there will be LEO interactions - the result of these interactions, over time, is what makes OC less remarkable.
Just start OCing!
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
Thanks. This *is* OpenCarry.Org's forum. CC is an infringement advanced by the NRA.
Thanks. This *is* OpenCarry.Org's forum. CC is an infringement advanced by the NRA.
feslandsurveys
New member
imported post
The "open" part of OC is what benefits me in my situation. It prevents arguments and gives me a chance to explain my situation. State cops are almost always very knowledgeable of the law. It be a local county guy who could be an issue, but with those guys if you look and act like you have every right to be carrying and just ask, "Can I help you officer?" You will not have a problem. HAPPY CARRYING!
The "open" part of OC is what benefits me in my situation. It prevents arguments and gives me a chance to explain my situation. State cops are almost always very knowledgeable of the law. It be a local county guy who could be an issue, but with those guys if you look and act like you have every right to be carrying and just ask, "Can I help you officer?" You will not have a problem. HAPPY CARRYING!