Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: School Zone Map?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    236

    Post imported post

    I'm wondering if there is such thing as a WI school zone map where one could narrow in on a certain location to see where it would be legal to carry. I thought that I read something about that before, but I'm not sure.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rosamond, California, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    GJD wrote:
    I'm wondering if there is such thing as a WI school zone map where one could narrow in on a certain location to see where it would be legal to carry. I thought that I read something about that before, but I'm not sure.
    I know Google Earth will flag schools if you hit the right setting. Then it's easy to use the measuring function to figure out the 1000 feet. I do this in California because it's a felony for me to carry within 1000 feet of school property. I usually just remember what streets in my area are further than 1000 feet and play it safe with the extra distance.

    California law is written that if I carry into what I know, or should know, is a school zone, I am screwed. This is good if you are traveling in an area you are unfamiliar with because you can probably convince a cop (or jury) that you didn't "knowingly" do it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,422

    Post imported post

    I tried to find this information myself when compiling "WI OC Needs Better Organization in order to Succeed," and was unsucessful.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    908

    Post imported post



    The Brief 00-11 referred to ( i.e. CARRYING FIREARMS IN PUBLIC ) was written in year 2000. Eight years ago. Also written three years before the pivitable Hamdan case. It was written in response to the failed Personal Protection Act. It is a brief not law or a judicial opinion.

    Since 2000 there have been a number of Suopreme Court Cases that have addressed "Disorderly Conduct" and what conditions define it. Of most significance is the statement made by State prosecutor Kassell during oral argument in the Hamdan case. When specifically asked the question concerning open carry and disorderly conduct Kassell replied that in his opinion he would find a charge of disorderly conduct for openly carrying a firearm in public to be unconstitutional. It is also interesting to note that Doyle was a member of the prosecuting team.

    The Wisconsin School Zone ordinance is 948.605.
    "School" is defined in 948.61(1)(b). It reads
    "School" means a public, parochial, or private school which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 ------

    The definition of school does not apply to colleges, universities, trade schools, or even to facilities that provide education only to pre-school or kindergarten. There is some question if State colleges and Universities are considered goverment property owned or leased by the State so some caution is order there.

    Note: the word "provides" implies it is an active school not one that is no longer used for education.

    It should also be noted that carry is not prohibited on private property within the "school zone".

    It is also not prohibited in the school zone if it is unloaded and encased.

    ref. 948.605(2)(b)(1) and 948.605 (2)(b)(3)(a).

    What I do to determine the area of a school zone is obtain a city or county map. Find the address location of the schools from a phone book or city/county directory. Set a compass (the device used to make a circle) to the scale shown on the map. (For example if the map would say "scale 1 inch equals 500 feet" I set the compass so it makes a 4 inch circle). I then place the pointer on the school location and draw a 4 inch circle around it. I usually add some "wiggle" room to be safe. I then know that any public property within that circle is off limits. I don't carry the map with me or in my vehicle because that is hard evidence that I know where the school zones are.



  5. #5
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    I do not believe that a church or daycare meet the definition of "school" ---

    948.61(1)(b) "School" means a public, parochial or private school which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or high school.

    I don't see how anyone can logically interpret this to mean a church or daycare. Let's not invent restrictions that don't exist. The real ones are enough!
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  6. #6
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rosamond, California, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    I do not believe that a church or daycare meet the definition of "school" ---

    948.61(1)(b) "School" means a public, parochial or private school which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or high school.

    I don't see how anyone can logically interpret this to mean a church or daycare. Let's not invent restrictions that don't exist. The real ones are enough!
    Parochial School - A school supported by a church parish.

    Lots of churches nowadays have small schools in them. Sometimes the classes are held in rooms that are actually part of the church itself.

    Therefore if a particular cop happens to know that a particular church has a school, you could end up being detained/arrested.

    You may be okay when you get to court, because of the "commonly known as an elementary school..." section, but youmay still end up taking the ride downtown.

    Back in my hometown we had St Patrick's church. Housed in the basement of the church and in one other building was "St Patrick's Elementary School"

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,422

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    ....I don't see how anyone can logically interpret this to mean a church or daycare....
    It seems to happen.

  8. #8
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    Decoligny wrote:
    Parochial School - A school supported by a church parish.

    Lots of churches nowadays have small schools in them. Sometimes the classes are held in rooms that are actually part of the church itself.

    Therefore if a particular cop happens to know that a particular church has a school, you could end up being detained/arrested.

    You may be okay when you get to court, because of the "commonly known as an elementary school..." section, but youmay still end up taking the ride downtown.

    Back in my hometown we had St Patrick's church. Housed in the basement of the church and in one other building was "St Patrick's Elementary School"
    You miss the point. Not all churches have schools associated with them, hidden or otherwise. There is NO restriction regarding firearms near or in a church in Wisconsin. Schools are different, yes, but it was claimed above that "school zone" includes churches and daycares. Clearly it does not include either one.

    As far as the possibility that a church might have a little school in the basement, remember what the statute says: 948.605(2)(a) "Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony." The prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person KNEW or had reasonable cause to believe there was a school in the basement. Are there school crossing signs or other indicators? No? Case closed. If a church has a school, then the school zone is created by virtue of there being a school, not because of the church!

    School zone does not include a church or day care.

    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    908

    Post imported post

    Excellent reply Shotgun.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,422

    Post imported post

    Shotgun wrote:
    ....The prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person KNEW or had reasonable cause to believe there was a school in the basement....
    The examples of Dan and Lammie being charged show the prosecution may not get a conviction.

  11. #11
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    There's no way you can be sure you won't be wrongly charged for something. I wouldn't particularly worry about that. It's the conviction for a charge that you most want to avoid. Wrongful charge or arrest? So what? Sue them if you want.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,169

    Post imported post

    If you continue on to read about “elements of a crime,” you will see that it is the burden of the prosecution to prove each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. I would suggest the elements involved here are as follows:



    948.605 Gun−free school zones. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this[/b]

    section:[/b]

    (a) “Encased” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).[/b]

    (ac) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet−firing[/b]

    gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any[/b]

    starter pistol.[/b]

    (am) “Motor vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).[/b]

    (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).[/b]

    (c) “School zone” means any of the following:[/b]

    1. In or on the grounds of a school.[/b]

    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.[/b]





    (2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE.[/b]

    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm[/b][/b]

    [/b]

    Element 1. If you do not know that you possess a firearm because you forgot about it or never knew it was there in the first place or didn’t believe it was a firearm, this element fails.

    [/b]

    at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone[/b]

    [/b]

    Element 2. If you do not know or could not be reasonably expected to know you are in a school zone, this element fails.

    [/b]

    is guilty of a Class I felony.[/b]

    [/b]

    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:[/b]

    ...[/b]

    3. That is not loaded and is:[/b]

    a. Encased; or[/b]

    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;[/b]

    [/b]

    However, you are still subject to charge of carrying a concealed weapon (941.23) and prosecution under the federal law which does not have an exception that is as extensive.



    Lastly, parochial school does not equal Sunday School, Hebrew school or daycare



    948.61 Dangerous weapons other than firearms on

    school premises. (1) In this section:

    ...

    (b) “School” means a public, parochial or private school which

    provides an educational program for one or more grades between

    grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary

    school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or

    high school.

    (c) “School premises” means any school building, grounds,

    recreation area or athletic field or any other property owned, used

    or operated for school administration.



    [size=][/size]

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,169

    Post imported post

    And for those who want to measure gun-free zones, remember it is X feet from any point of the zone - not the center. The GFSZ outline should look like the outline of the zone - only larger. If your zone is a circle - you are wrong.

  14. #14
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    apjonas wrote:
    And for those who want to measure gun-free zones, remember it is X feet from any point of the zone - not the center. The GFSZ outline should look like the outline of the zone - only larger. If your zone is a circle - you are wrong.
    What I've proposed elsewhere is that one visit schools in your vicinity with a GPS and walk the perimeter of the school grounds saving a waypoint at each corner and the midpoint between corners. That way, as long as you approach no closer than 1000' of any of those waypoints, you will not enter the "school zone."
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    236

    Post imported post

    I'm going to try with Google earth and a GPS. It sucks that I cant go out for a walk from my home while OC'ing. When will they understand that I'm not a threat to school children while walking away from the school while armed?

  16. #16
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Elgin, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,202

    Post imported post

    In light of the WI supreme court decision on open/concealed carry and the recent trial courts ruling unconstitutional a concealed carry prohibition, I believe a draft of legislation striking this 1000' rule or modifing it in such a way as to apply only to unlawful weapons or uses.

    Testing this through the courts is a last resort unless it can be done without an arrest.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Waukesha, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    721

    Post imported post

    I also belive this 1000' limitation will someday be eliminated/modified, as well as the prohibition on loaded gun car carry. You have the right to keep and bear arms while on foot but your right is infringed while in your car.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836

    Post imported post

    It's a ridiculously strict law. It doesn't even exempt off duty cops:

    Is a law enforcement officer acting in the discharge of his or her official duties.



    I had a communication with WisconsinsAssistant Attorney General Dave Perlman and he stated that an off duty police officer who had hisfirearm on himwhile in a school zone would indeed be committing a felony.

    If even the police aren't trusted with guns in this situation, what chance do other law abiding citizens have?

    This state is so stupid!

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    908

    Post imported post

    Technically that is saying that if an off duty officer, trained to come to peoples assistance, is walking down the street just outside a school zone and observes a crime being committed within a school zone. The officer must remove his/her firearm before entering the school zone, in order to assist, or risk a charge of a career ending felony. How utterly stupid is that? Another case of politicians putting laws into effect before they put their brains in gear.

    Of course the issue on whether or not the crime is being comitted on public property or private property comes into play, which means the officer must have a plat book with him so he/she can make that determination before he can use his/her firearm to help the person(s) in trouble.

    Does this sound facetious? Maybe, but what police officer is going to put their career on the line on the chance that it isn't facetious? Stupid things happen in DA offices and the courts. Even the State Supreme Court screws up.

    It's time some of the monkeys get shook out of the tree. In my opionion we need two things. A voter's rebellion and term limits on all political offices. Unfortunately the chance of either of those happening is as likely as hearing a whisper in a hurricane.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    908

    Post imported post

    PKBites:

    Another conundrum concerning school zones. It would be interesting to ask Mr. Perlman for his definition of private property within the 1000ft boundary of a school zone. The streets out front of private property is considered public property because the goverment has "right of way" and is responsible for maintenance. But, what about sidewalks? Are sidewalks considered private property or public property. The property owner is responsible for the maintenance of the sidewalk in front of their property. The property owner is also liable for any injuries on the sidewalk. So does that make the sidewalk private property or is it public property because the public has free use of it. Or is it considered not public property but public space. Public space is private property which is in general use by the public. i.e. shopping malls. department stores etc.

    The definitions of public space versus public property versus private property is very important in the case of the school zone statute. The firearm restrictions within a school zone don't apply if you are within the 1000ft boundary and are on private property. If a person with a firearm steps out of his house onto the sidewalk is he now guilty of a felony or is he exempt from penalty because he is still on private property. The state statutes have no clear definition.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Waukesha, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    721

    Post imported post

    And I am sure that nobody on this forum or any law abiding gun owner wants to become a test case to your sidewalk point Lammie.... risk never owning a gun again if convicted or get one BS restriction overturned. Likely a lengthy appeals process after being convicted once that would consume great money and leave you defenseless in your home when the state confiscates all your firearms after first being convicted. Call me cynical but I don't have that much faith in our system to get stuff like this right.

    If only our state reps and senators could be encouraged to fix $hitty laws already on the books like this one. A 1000' violation IS unconstitional, but DA's will still prosecute for it! There are already so many unconstitional laws on the books all over the US that people are convicted of all the time.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    , Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    908

    Post imported post

    Because if the severe personal and financial risk involved in contesting the statue it isprobable that the only way the school zone statute will get fixed is if law enforcement contests it as unworkable. Someone in law enforcement will need to "shake things up" through the enforcement channels. That is why members such as PKBites and My Perspective are so important to this forum.

    A similar situation happened some years ago when the new trespass law was passed. As originally structured even conservation officers could not enter onto private property without owner permission or a search warrant. It didn't take the DNR long to get that changed.

    If law enforcement can convince the legislature that the statute as presently written presents more risk to school and public safety than it solves, then perhaps the legislature will draft a bill to correct it. If the legislature does take such action then perhaps other problem areas can be fixed. As a minimum make violations subject to a conditional penalty. That is, make the penalty fit the seriousness of the crime. Change the statute so that it doesn't brand all violators as a felon. A person who unknowingly infringes on a statute should not have his constitutional rights permanently voided nor should they lose such things as their right to vote. On the other hand a person(s) that commits a crime of violence should suffer the full consequences of the law. Additionally a police officer that is trained to serve and protect the public should not be put in a position that they can not use their firearm to come to the aid of a person because doing so may get them charged with a career ending felony.

    Under today's atmosphere it is unlikely that the legislature will take any action on it's own. It will only do so when subjected to political pressure or state supreme court decision. It is unlikely that there would be a supreme court decision in the foreseeable future. As previously mentioned it is unlikely that any individual is willing to risk his future firearm ownership and endure the personal and financial pain to contest the constitutionality of the statute.

    Where is the NRA and WGO when we need them?

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,422

    Post imported post

    I'm thinking of the Legba case.

  24. #24
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,668

    Post imported post

    Pointman wrote:
    I believe the NRA is most of the reason we're in this mess. The sad part is if we were pulled over by an officer in a school zone (the street), and were properly transporting a firearm encased and unloaded, there is a chance we'd be arrested for being in possession of a firearm within 1000' of a school zone, given that open-carrying in your car is interpreted as "concealed carry."

    Edit: I'm thinking of the Legba case of claiming "ready at hand = CC."
    Not sure I follow the reasoning here. Remember the "school zone" statute doesn't prohibit guns within 1000' of the school property if they are unloaded and encased. And how is an unloaded and encased gun "open carry?"
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,422

    Post imported post

    My comment is really about another side of School Zones.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •