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Thread: UK - British Man Charged with Murder

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    Apparently, according to British law, the second the criminal isn't an "imminent threat", you're screwed as far as self defense goes. They could set the knife down, throw their hands up and say "You've got me, gov'nuh! I want my lawyer and three meals a day for a month!" AFTER stabbing you as you lie bleeding and dying on the floor and it would be illegal to do anything about it.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle827978.ece

    By BEN ASHFORD
    Published: 21 Feb 2008
    A HERO shopkeeper who struggled with a robber was nicked on suspicion of murder after the thug was killed with his own knife.
    Brave Tony Singh fought back when hooded Liam Kilroe, 25, ambushed him as he was about to drive home after a 13-hour day.
    The career-villain pulled a knife on his petrified victim – but was impaled on it as he grappled with the terrified convenience store boss.
    Kilroe, who has a history of violent armed robberies on shops, tried to flee the raid but collapsed and died in a pool of blood.
    Police called to the scene in Skelmersdale, Lancs, found shocked Mr Singh, 34, nursing knife wounds to his back and neck.
    But despite his injuries officers arrested the shaken have-a-go-hero and quizzed him on suspicion of murder.
    After being freed on bail until February 29, he said: “I feel lucky to be alive. All I was doing was trying to stop myself getting hurt. If one of the wounds had gone an inch either way it could have been fatal.”
    Lancashire Police have sent a file to Crown Prosecution Service lawyers who will decide whether murder or manslaughter charges should be brought.
    Locals rallied around Mr Singh yesterday.


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    Maybe I'm missing something; but it looks to me like standard procedure.

    Police arrive and finda dead body. Who killed it? That guy with the knife wounds probably. Oh, hesays it was self-defense. OK, lets get hold of him until we find outfor sure--lots of murderers have claimed self-defense.

    Not that I like that scenario.

    I'm just not convinced Mr. Singh is in any more than usual trouble. I don't know English law, but I think there won't be any charges.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.

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    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    Yes.I've heard of this sort of thing, too.

    But this story doesn't say anything about that. I don't see anything in the story to indicate that he is being unfairly investigated or prosecuted.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    They don't mention getting the victim medical care either.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    Yes.I've heard of this sort of thing, too.

    But this story doesn't say anything about that. I don't see anything in the story to indicate that he is being unfairly investigated or prosecuted.
    It will be quite interesting if we get a followup on the story finding out what the court does. There are numerous news stories of English subjects being deprived of liberty for the crime of surviving the attacks of brutal multiple offender having passed through the understanding British legal system.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    deepdiver wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    Yes.I've heard of this sort of thing, too.

    But this story doesn't say anything about that. I don't see anything in the story to indicate that he is being unfairly investigated or prosecuted.
    It will be quite interesting if we get a followup on the story finding out what the court does. There are numerous news stories of English subjects being deprived of liberty for the crime of surviving the attacks of brutal multiple offender having passed through the understanding British legal system.
    The key phrase.

    We are citizens, they are subjects.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    Yes.I've heard of this sort of thing, too.

    But this story doesn't say anything about that. I don't see anything in the story to indicate that he is being unfairly investigated or prosecuted.
    It will be quite interesting if we get a followup on the story finding out what the court does. There are numerous news stories of English subjects being deprived of liberty for the crime of surviving the attacks of brutal multiple offender having passed through the understanding British legal system.
    The key phrase.

    We are citizens, they are subjects.
    Absolutely. I originally typed "citizen" and then immediately backspaced and corrected it.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    Yes.I've heard of this sort of thing, too.

    But this story doesn't say anything about that. I don't see anything in the story to indicate that he is being unfairly investigated or prosecuted.
    It will be quite interesting if we get a followup on the story finding out what the court does. There are numerous news stories of English subjects being deprived of liberty for the crime of surviving the attacks of brutal multiple offender having passed through the understanding British legal system.
    The key phrase.

    We are citizens, they are subjects.
    Absolutely. I originally typed "citizen" and then immediately backspaced and corrected it.
    Actually they are both. They passed laws a few years ago that states they are citizens and subjects of the UK. GO figure.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    Yes.I've heard of this sort of thing, too.

    But this story doesn't say anything about that. I don't see anything in the story to indicate that he is being unfairly investigated or prosecuted.
    It will be quite interesting if we get a followup on the story finding out what the court does. There are numerous news stories of English subjects being deprived of liberty for the crime of surviving the attacks of brutal multiple offender having passed through the understanding British legal system.
    The key phrase.

    We are citizens, they are subjects.
    Absolutely. I originally typed "citizen" and then immediately backspaced and corrected it.
    Actually they are both. They passed laws a few years ago that states they are citizens and subjects of the UK. GO figure.
    As some old timers say around here: Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn't mean you call 'em biscuits.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  11. #11
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    deepdiver wrote:
    As some old timers say around here: Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn't mean you call 'em biscuits.
    But they both are good to eat. especially together with gravy. Yum!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    As some old timers say around here: Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn't mean you call 'em biscuits.
    But they both are good to eat. especially together with gravy. Yum!
    Well, I've been known to eat a little ... dammit, not going there. You led me to the edge of the abyss but I'm just not jumping in.

    :P
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    God bless America.

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    ace1001 wrote:
    They don't mention getting the victim medical care either.
    He's probably still waiting in the ER to see a doctor, sponsored by his wonderful "free" healthcare.

    Sad, sad case though. A year or so ago when I was a little more up-to-date with British domestic news (long story), I recall reading about things like this fairly regularly.

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    Mordis wrote:
    I have friends in england, and your way off. There was a home owner there once. Who had a permit for a hunting shot gun. Some guy broke in with a knife and came at the home owner, who shot him down with the hunting gun. Well, the homeowner was arrested charged and convicted of murder and got more then 10 years in jail.

    In england they dont want you defending your self at all.
    I read an article where an old woman was carrying a knitting needle for self-defense and was charged for possessing an "offensive" weapon!!!!!! No wonder Britian has such massive white flight.

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    if you get charged for defending yourself from a robber, whats going to happen when the muslims take over that country and you cant even shoot back?

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    Schofield wrote:
    Lancashire Police have sent a file to Crown Prosecution Service lawyers who will decide whether murder or manslaughter charges should be brought.
    Locals rallied around Mr Singh yesterday.
    I know I'm probably reading too much into it. But is sounds like he will be charge with killing his attacker. Period.

    The only question is will it be murder OR manslaughter.

    There are just no words to express my disbelief.

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...portaltop.html

    Thank God for the Revolutionary War!

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...portaltop.html

    Thank God for the Revolutionary War!
    When exactly did the British become complete and utter pussies? Is there a particular moment in time, a particular vote in parliament, or was it just an insidious emasculating creep of political correctness? Pardon my language, but what else would one call them?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    When exactly did the British become complete and utter pussies? Is there a particular moment in time, a particular vote in parliament, or was it just an insidious emasculating creep of political correctness? Pardon my language, but what else would one call them?

    Average, run of the mill, human beings.

    I think psychology (the subject) infiltrated into our culture via the media and education has had a huge effect. If you are just a bunch of chemicals,what's the point of taking responsibility or being responsible? Its the chemicals in yourbrain that are responsible for your behavior, not you. If you are just a glorified animal, who cares how you feel, whether you die, whether you'rein pain? You're just a souless, shambling, animal that can make articulate sounds. Why should anybody respect you?

    Deny people anunderstanding of themselves,glorify victimhood, teach themthere is no hope, teach them moral relativism. That last one has been devastating--moral relativism.

    I imagine its done the same to the Brits.

    But, what do I know. I'm just a gun guy.



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Andyet another reason why I'm proud to be an American....where at least I know I'm free!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rnf7DS5YlQ



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    A point I remember bringing up a while ago is the idea of justified self-defense, and how America embraces it whereas other cultures may not. Go to the most liberal hang-out in San Francisco, and I doubt you'll find anyone that thinks you can't use violence to defend yourself against an attacker. They might think you can't use a gun to do it... but the idea is still there that it is your right and responsibility to defend yourself, and that the violence you use is justified to stop an attack because you did not provoke it.

    Now, to look at it from another perspective, if someone is trying to kill you, but you kill him before he completes his attack, you have still killed a person. And, since one person would have ended up dead either way, there's no greater evil whether the attacker or defender is the one killed. Yes, the attacker provoked the attack... but this perspective would see no difference between who provoked the attack and who received it. Is this an f'ed-up and pathetic way to look at self-defense? Very much so. But it may shed some light onto the response we see here. One who doesn't accept self-defense as legitimite would see the act of violence in a vacuum of intention.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Now, to look at it from another perspective, if someone is trying to kill you, but you kill him before he completes his attack, you have still killed a person. And, since one person would have ended up dead either way, there's no greater evil whether the attacker or defender is the one killed. Yes, the attacker provoked the attack... but this perspective would see no difference between who provoked the attack and who received it. Is this an f'ed-up and pathetic way to look at self-defense? Very much so. But it may shed some light onto the response we see here. One who doesn't accept self-defense as legitimite would see the act of violence in a vacuum of intention.
    I believe the rationale for this viewpoint resides in the crazy but popular notion that there is nothing more valuable in this world than a human life. Whereas the believer in self-defence would say there are principles of life that are more important than life itself. That there are things worth dying for, and worth killing for. It's wrong to kill someone, but isn't it equally wrong to let someone kill someone else, even if that someone else is you? It's a paradox that the pacifist cannot resolve.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    The ultimate conclusion of moral relativism. The victim's life is no more valuable or important than the career criminal, murderer, rapist or child molester.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    according to my English friends, doing anything at anytime during the commission of a crime against you is a felony. No matter if the assailant only gets a few scrapes and bruises or dead. You are still guilty of vigilantism. self defense is completely illegal there unless you are LEO or military on guard detail. From what they told me the police are there to protect you. England fails to realize that the only thing cops can do for the law abiding citizen is to draw their chalk outline after the criminal kills them ( the citizen).

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