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Thread: I need to see your permit...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I was expecting it to be just another normal day here in Tacoma. I went for a coffee at the usual place and read a few forums from my laptop, including posting to this one, and then after an hour or so I walked back to the car. After I dropped the laptop in the trunk, I decided to head over the Bridge of Glass to the marina by the Museum of Glass. After admiring the boats and enjoying the warm sun I headed up the ramp to the street level (I had come down those pain-in-the-ass shallow steps). At the top I noticed two people with bright yellow shirts emblazoned with SECURITY on them. They took one look at me and headed down the stairs away from me. Huh, whatever.

    Well, only moments later up the stairs comes your friend and mine, Officer Olsen. Thankfully he decided to drop the ‘Little Hitler’ approach he used last time and just talk to me like a normal person, which I appreciated. He asked how I was doing, and then asked if I had my permit on me. He asked if he could see it, I told him no, that he had already done it about six months ago (actually it was nine months). He asked if I was the same guy, I affirmed. He said he didn’t recognize me and that he deals with a lot of different people which is understandable I guess. He asked to check it again and then I could be on my way. I asked if I were being detained, he said no but that I was “causing some alarm”. He asked for my permit again and I realized that we have to show it when asked, but also realized it was still up in the visor of the car from last week, so I declined.

    He pressed it again and I told him that we’d already been through all this, and he again claimed he didn’t remember. He then claimed he wanted to check the expiration date because he didn’t remember when it expired, reminded me that they have an expiration date, and then I could be on my way. I asked if I could be on my way anyway, and asked if I were being detained. Without answering he again asked if he could check the expiration date. Well, I began to realize this was an exercise in futility since I didn’t have it with me, when one of the other two officers that were standing there called him over. I suppose he was a supervisor but I didn’t get his name or rank. The third officer asked, “What’s with the hostility sir?” That was odd, since I had been nothing less than polite the whole time, even while I was firmly asking if I were being detained. I told this officer that I had already been through this, with him [Olsen] and that it was ridiculous. I reminded him that I couldn’t be detained unless I was committing a crime, which we all knew I was not. Then the supervisor told me I was good to go and that open carry was legal in Washington. I walked back to the car and headed home. I was ‘not detained’ for about six or seven minutes.

    In hindsight I suppose I should have just told him I didn’t have the permit when I realized it was in the car, but I was also somewhat irritated that Tacoma seems to insist that open carry requires a permit. It also bugs me that, even though he admitted that open carry was legal and that I wasn’t being detained, he kept asking over and over to see my permit. Additionally, for someone who didn’t remember me (despite all the big to-do we had last spring) he wanted to see the permit because he “couldn’t remember the expiration date”. The other cop with the dumb question about why I was being hostile, when I was going out of my way to be polite to an officer that lied to me and later to his sergeant in a written statement, was puzzling as well. The statement that I was ‘causing alarm’ was pretty alarming to me since I was watching everyone closely for just that. I think, again in hindsight, that it was the museum security that made the call and the few people down there didn’t think anything of it. I would have to get the dispatch tapes to be sure though.

  2. #2
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    Gezz mainsail. You every think about just covering that bad boy up?

  3. #3
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    Why would you have to show him your license to carry a concealed pistol? If you are open carrying then you don't need the permit, if you don't need to carry the permit how would you show it to him?



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    nathan wrote:
    Why would you have to show him your license to carry a concealed pistol? If you are open carrying then you don't need the permit, if you don't need to carry the permit how would you show it to him?

    I second this. You are only required to show it to an officer upon demand when you are required to have it per rcw 9.41.050. You were not carrying concealed as stated in that rcw so you had no requirement by law to provide it to him.

    Also I call BS that he didn't recognize you as every officer I know remembers people that they have had contact with that has had a weapon on thier person. If he truly did not remember then he should not be on the streets for safety reasons.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    File another complaint. Make his brass work, they'll eventually get sick of him causing them work over this non issue. Every time he look cross eyed at you file another complaint.

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    Second Joerocket's statement. You were not concealed so no need to show CPL...
    Ever think about a lawyer at this point?

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    If you had remembered that you did not have the permit on your person in time, you could have done sort of a Columbo routine - "Ahhhh, oh, a, officer, ya know, I don't happen to have my permit to conceal on me today, ah, sorry. Fortunately for all of us I am not, ahhh,concealing right now, so you don't have to issue me a summons, and I promise not to conceal 'till I have my permit on me. Is there, a, ya know, anything else I can do for you fellers?"

    Sometimes things go a bit easier with a slight amount of cooperation/humorous interaction but without giving in to over-enthusiastic policing. In the brief exchange, the officers could ascertain that you were not intoxicated or acting manic depressive, not being a total dick about not showing the permit as you don't have it, etc.

    Just a thought.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Olsen never detained me, nor was he forcefully or dishonestly trying to compel me to comply with his request. I DO doubt he was being honest about remembering me from last spring. As near as I can tell, he was only investigating in response to a call from museum security. I have the feeling that he was being a bit repetitive in his request for my permit because he was trying to save face for himself and TPD in the eyes of the security people. They were hovering nearby waiting for me to get jacked up, and followed me from a distance after I left.

    I can accept that the police need to do a job; investigate complaints. He should, at the moment he noticed that no laws were being broken, concluded that there was no crime to investigate and not bothered me. That would make me want to complain, however, I see a pattern here. The last time I was stopped was at the coffee shop, remember? The Sgt there also wanted to see my permit. So now I’m wondering if that was what they were instructed to do in such a situation.

    Right now I don't know what doing anything 'legal' would accomplish.

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    I agree not time for "legal" stuff, but it can't hurt to have a letter on file from a lawyer about this. If nothing else it will start building a case for systematic harrassment or may force the TPD to start looking at OC in a real world manner.

    I'm glad this encounter went so much smoother for you than others. Maybe they are slowly learning...

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    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    I was ‘not detained’ for about six or seven minutes.
    I wonder what course this would have taken had the supervisor not been there.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    There was really no need to check the expiration date on the permit. Since you don't need a CPL to carry openly, checking the expiration date is moot. What a B.S. excuse to "not detain" you!

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    File another complaint already. Make the brass work. And it officially documents this needless line of questioning about a permit which is not required. And it helps toset the stage for a deprivation of rights and or harassment suit should these events continue(IMO).

  13. #13
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    If nothing else it will start building a case for systematic harrassment
    Not necessarily. The Department can claim that they stop All people open carrying when called by third parties such as the Security Personnel in this case.

    Harassment would only be the case if they only stopped and "didn't detain" only Mainsail.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    I'm with, Cato. File the complaint.

    One angle we don't often discuss here is the declaration that you do not consent to the encounter. We often discuss refusing consent to searches, and refusing consent to seizures, but we rarely discuss consent to a seizure of the person.

    One option is to just tell them you don't consent to the encounter. Its a variation of "am I free to go?"They can't evade that declaration the way they can evade answering whether you're free to go. If they so much as ask one more question, it seems to me,then they are declaring a non-consensual encounter a.k.a. detention. Of course a court is probably going to consider all the circumstances; but it builds the case that either they thought they had grounds for a non-consensual encounter, or they were deliberately ignoring your 4th Amendment rights in trying to get you to talk. I don't see how they can escape either of those two alternatives. What arethey going to say?

    Of course, if you refuse consent at the outset, you don't get useful information upon which to base a complaint. Maybe refuse consent after a minute or two of conversation where you get ridiculous requests to see your CCW while your're OCing, or ridiculous reasons for the stop.

    I completely agree with you that upon seeing no crime he should have left you alone.


    Make yourself dangerous to their personnel file. They'll leave you alone.



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    The last time I was stopped was at the coffee shop, remember? The Sgt there also wanted to see my permit.
    Next time they ask for your permit while you are in OC mode just whip out your pocket edition of the Constitution and Bil of Rights. Tell them to go to the 2A tab.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    If you are OC, leave your CPL in the car. Tell them "I don't have a permit". (you don't, you have a license.)

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    The aspect that I find the most humorous about this (actually there are a couple) is that you failed to notice that there were witnesses to your run in with "the law" this day. I was one of the ...yes....googly eyed people that have a hard time minding my own business. I overheard your "politeness" to Officer Olsen, and I must admit...I don't think your mama taught you exactly what that means. You might want to re think your side of the story bucko..I also noticed the "trembling" of your hand when you reached for your cell phone. Now, I think it's quite entertaining to listen to you people bitch about the cops questioning you as you rattle off your memorized RCW codes. But I believe it was YOU sir who walked to your car (a crown Vic with tinted windows) carrying a huge weapon on your hip (are we making up in size something we are lacking else where?) Probably listening to your police scanner to see if they had mentioned you. Was it something in your childhood that made you want all this attention? Does it make you feel like a cop..big and important to walk around with a gun on your hip for all the world to see? Who else finds it amusing that you emulate the people you make fun of...Cops. Oh wait...haha..I bet your one of those people that tried with all their might to become a cop, but it was probably some morbid part of your past that stopped the process cold, like being an arrogant jerk perhaps?? Or was it rape?? Oh..I know...you touch little kid pee pee's huh? That's why now your stuck in the sad sad realization of driving around in your wanna be cop car, listening to the police scanner, hoping the people that see you with your weapon on your hip will think your a cop?....an undercover FBI agent?.....wow...I wish I could be even half as cool as that..

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    Now where did I put that spray?

    Here it is!



  20. #20
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    divebomb wrote:
    The aspect that I find the most humorous about this (actually there are a couple) is that you failed to notice that there were witnesses to your run in with "the law" this day. I was one of the ...yes....googly eyed people that have a hard time minding my own business.* I overheard your "politeness" to Officer Olsen, and I must admit...I don't think your mama taught you exactly what that means. You might want to re think your side of the story bucko..*I also noticed the "trembling" of your hand when you reached for your cell phone. Now, I think it's quite entertaining to listen to you people bitch about the cops questioning you as you rattle off your memorized RCW codes. But I believe it was YOU sir who walked to your car (a crown Vic with tinted windows) carrying a huge weapon on your hip (are we making up in size something we are lacking else where?) Probably listening to your police scanner to see if they had mentioned you. Was it something in your childhood that made you want all this attention? Does it make you feel like a cop..big and important to walk around with a gun on your hip for all the world to see? Who else finds it amusing that you emulate the people you make fun of...Cops. Oh wait...haha..I bet your one of those people that tried with all their might to become a cop, but it was probably some morbid part of your past that stopped the process cold, like being an arrogant jerk perhaps?? Or was it rape?? Oh..I know...you touch little kid pee pee's huh? That's why now your stuck in the sad sad realization of driving around in your wanna be cop car, listening to the police scanner, hoping the people that see you with your weapon on your hip will think your a cop?....an undercover FBI agent?.....wow...I wish I could be even half as cool as that..
    So, which officer/security guard were you?

    I hope you do realize that when you sign up, post, and access this site that it logs your IP address, your IP address is retrievable through your ISP, Ie. Comcast, Qwest,etc. and can be traced back to a user name complete with all billing details such as name and address. Furthermore, any 'it wasn't me' defense can be shattered by retrieval of logs to sites you've visited. Kind've hard to say 'I didn't do it' when you logged into an email account, and checked your bank account balance, right before you posted here.
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    I hope one day people come to assume responsibility for their own safety. Weither that means CC or OC it doesn't matter. With more people openly carrying it will become no big thing. So we don't have cops wasting time and money to hassle honest and law abiding citizens.

    To the trolls comment that mr.mainsail was shaking, i imagine you'd be calm as jello when last time you encountered said PO. A gun was pointed at you.

    That is all i have to say about that.

    You do good work Mainsail, keep it up.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I overheard your "politeness" to Officer Olsen, and I must admit...I don't think your mama taught you exactly what that means.


    I was at all times polite. One can be firm and polite at the same time. If you choose to surrender your privacy and your privacy rights, it is certainly your prerogative to do so. I choose not to, and if I feel someone is trying to violate my privacy, I will be firm and polite.

    You might want to re think your side of the story bucko..


    I don’t need to rethink anything, because you weren’t the only ‘witness’ and I can review every instant of the encounter in real time whenever I want. I hope you don’t ever witness any serious crime, as you have proven unreliable as such.

    I also noticed the "trembling" of your hand when you reached for your cell phone.


    One doesn’t ‘reach’ for anything when talking to the police. My cell phone was in my hand the whole time.

    Now, I think it's quite entertaining to listen to you people bitch about the cops questioning you as you rattle off your memorized RCW codes.


    I never recited any RCWs during the encounter. If you’re talking about here in this forum, I have to wonder what it is about the law you find so disagreeable. I hope you aren’t suggesting that the police should disregard the law and just enforce whatever they want.

    But I believe it was YOU sir who walked to your car (a crown Vic with tinted windows) carrying a huge weapon on your hip (are we making up in size something we are lacking else where?) Probably listening to your police scanner to see if they had mentioned you.


    Yes, I walked to my car and yes it is a Crown Vic, but that was where I was going when Olsen stopped me. There wasn’t a scanner but I did have my ham radio in there, as it is one of many hobbies I enjoy and the Vic is a perfect platform for it. The pistol, a 1911 model, and the car are both of regular size; neither would be considered huge. The pistol is of the same type issued to US military units from 1911 until the mid 1980s. Your blathering would have worked better if I were driving a jacked up monster truck and carrying a 50AE Desert Eagle.

    Was it something in your childhood that made you want all this attention? Does it make you feel like a cop..big and important to walk around with a gun on your hip for all the world to see? Who else finds it amusing that you emulate the people you make fun of...Cops.


    Feel like a cop? No. The fire extinguisher in the cupboard next to my oven doesn’t make me feel like a fireman either. The spare tire in my trunk doesn’t make me feel like AAA either. So no, I’m not trying to emulate the police. Please point out where I have ever ‘made fun of’ the police. I have tremendous respect and admiration for the police, especially the TPD. I do have a scanner at home, and I’m very aware of the often nightmarish job that they do. I am and have always been very supportive of them. That said, I refuse to simply roll over and accept it when they act beyond their authority towards me. And no, I don’t want any attention, I want to be left alone.

    Oh wait...haha..I bet your one of those people that tried with all their might to become a cop, but it was probably some morbid part of your past that stopped the process cold, like being an arrogant jerk perhaps?? Or was it rape?? Oh..I know...you touch little kid pee pee's huh? That's why now your stuck in the sad sad realization of driving around in your wanna be cop car, listening to the police scanner, hoping the people that see you with your weapon on your hip will think your a cop?....an undercover FBI agent?.....wow...I wish I could be even half as cool as that..
    [/quote]


    Wow, nonsense like that could get you committed to Western State. If I wanted to be a cop, I’d be one. Had you witnessed Officer Olsen’s actions last spring, you would have been stunned by his arrogance. Well, unless you are such a fool to believe that the police can do no wrong. Further, had I committed any of the crimes you speculate, I would be barred from firearms ownership and arrested on that day. As you are aware, I was not.

    So let’s talk about you then. What is the reason for all this anger? I’ve done nothing to you personally, and yet you attack me even though I was acting 100% lawfully at all times. When you first saw me you could have simply asked me about my firearm instead of scurrying away like a frightened cockroach. I think the heartburn you have with free Americans exercising their rights under both the US and Washington State Constitutions is that you are, as a security guard, mission-ineffective. Would you call the police on Martin Luther King if he had the audacity to exercise his free speech rights on Museum property? Does your bright yellow shirt and pepper spray not give you the illusion of authority you had hoped they would? One gets the impression that it is actually you who wishes to be a police officer but cannot. I could speculate that your 4th grade writing and grammar is probably one of many things holding you back. Maybe it’s just a general cowardice such as you displayed that day. It might well be any of the things you accused me of.

    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." ("General Introduction to Psychoanalysis," S. Freud)

    EDIT to add: I think I know where we should have our next lunch.

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    divebomb wrote:
    TOh..I know...you touch little kid pee pee's huh?
    hmmm... treading dangerously close to libel with these kind of comments me thinks...

  24. #24
    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    "I think I know where we should have our next lunch."

    Indeed. I think local area need for "showing our flag" transcends convenience, not that Tacoma is inconvenient for me. Olympia was, a little, but that was the best get-together for me because of the feeling of doing something to resist tyranny (in a very small way, of course.) Do you have a specific eatery in mind?



  25. #25
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    FYI, the poster "divebomb" has been reported to jpierce (the admin) for potential abuses of the site's policies and possible criminal libel: RCW 9.58.010

    As for eating our lunch in Tacoma, I'm not sure it really matters here, since we're dealing with a security guard, not someone of actual authority, such as a LEO. I'd almost consider doing that as giving affirmation of this person's (can I call him that?) authority and/or importance, which, to me, is almost nil.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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