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Thread: The Salt Lake Tribune publishes trash.

  1. #1
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8346161

    Common Sense 101: Guns don't belong in plain view in classrooms
    Tribune Editorial
    Article Last Updated:02/23/2008 01:39:28 PM MST


    Take a moment to put yourself in the shoes of a teacher at the University of Utah or Salt Lake Community College:

    You are standing in front of a classroom as students - 25, 50 or 100, depending on the class - walk in and take their seats. As one student sits down, he takes a revolver from a holster and places it in his lap or on the desk, his hand near the trigger. Or he leaves it in a shoulder or belt holster, in plain sight and within easy reach.

    What would you do?

    IF the student removed the weapon, (for any other reason than for self defense) he/she deserves to be pimp/bitch slapped. If he leaves it holstered, he/she deserves a thumbs up!

    That scenario is quite likely if House Bill 473 is passed by the Utah Legislature. Gun rights advocates say the bill does not change existing law, which they interpret as allowing concealed-carry permit holders to carry firearms in plain view. Attorney General Mark Shurtleff's opinion is that existing law could be interpreted to allow or prohibit permit holders to carry weapons openly.

    I like Mark Shutleff, but that sounds like a packaged, cover his ass response.


    HB473 would clarify that concealed-carry permits also give holders a right to openly carry loaded guns in public places, including public-school campuses, at colleges and universities, in sports stadiums. Yes, and in hospitals, public libraries and the unsecured areas of airports.

    The right that they have always had, even before the introduction of this bill.

    We wonder whether legislators who favor this bill have thought through the possible consequences of allowing, even encouraging, people to openly carry a loaded weapon into a classroom or a basketball game between rival schools, as this billwould do.

    A safer environment, perhaps?

    It would be impossible for a teacher or classmate to know the armed person's intent or his state of mind. In the heated atmosphere of a close game, even normally level-headed fans have been known to get violent. Add the sight of loaded guns to that mix, handy for quick response, even illegal use, and it's not hard to imagine the possible outcome.

    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. Robert A. Heinlein

    Openly carrying a weapon is a blatant form of intimidation, whether or not the person carrying it intends to use it.

    Yeah, my wife is pretty intimidating!

    Gun-rights lobbyist Clark Aposhian poo-poos as worry-mongering the concern of officials at the U. over potential classroom disruptions. We disagree. Their worry is reasonable. Call it Common Sense 101.

    It dosen't matter what they write about Clark, as long as they spell his name correctly.
    If legislators doubt the implications of HB473, they should put themselves in the position of a teacher confronted by an armed student. Gun advocates might advise a concerned teacher to get a gun of her own. But is a classroom really the right place for a showdown?

    It may not be the right place for a showdown, but I am sure the students would love to be able to defend themselves against the "Cho's" of the world.



    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Very nice comebacks, Kevin.

  3. #3
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Here is something positive printed in the Salt Lake Tribune.

    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_8383671

    Self-defense on campus
    Public Forum Letter
    Article Last Updated:02/27/2008 06:26:49 PM MST

    Whenever I read about a shooting spree, I inquire about the weapons policy at that location. In nearly every instance, I've found that people are prohibited from carrying firearms there. This includes Trolley Square, which has a no-weapons policy.

    A rare exception was the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where the pastor had asked several parishioners with concealed-firearm permits to discreetly carry their weapons during services. When a heavily armed madman entered the New Life chapel and opened fire last December, he was quickly gunned down by a church member. Contrast this with the outcomes at Northern Illinois University and Virginia Tech. In each case the murderer was able to kill and maim to his heart's content.

    Fortunately, Utah state colleges and universities are required by law to allow adults with concealed-firearm permits to carry their self-defense weapons on campus. We should thank our legislators for passing this law, the Utah Attorney General's Office for enforcing it (despite fierce opposition from the University of Utah) and the Utah Supreme Court for upholding it.

    N. William Clayton
    Director of Communications
    Gun Owners of Utah
    Sandy
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Do you think I am pretty intimidating?
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Here is more tripe. Apparently people think that HB 473 passed. At least they printed the truth about SB 67 and SB 157

    http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_8472454

    Gun owners, colleges both win
    The Salt Lake Tribune

    Article Last Updated:03/06/2008 02:21:42 AM MST


    The gun debate on Capitol Hill was less contentious this year than previous ones, and both universities and firearms owners won concessions in the fight.

    Concealed-weapon permit holders received confirmation that they can openly carry their guns in nearly every public space, including sporting venues and hospitals. However, they cannot do so on college campuses. The bill also says permit holders would not be punished for accidentally or unintentionally showing their weapon.

    The outcome came as a relief to college administrators, who worried that exposed guns in classrooms would make it difficult to recruit and retain faculty.

    Lawmakers also adopted a bill stating that the government cannot infringe on gun-owners' rights during a state of emergency.

    Another bill that attempted to put Second Amendment rights above private-property rights was shelved in the House. The measure would have allowed concealed-weapon permit holders to keep their guns in their cars while at work or shopping, regardless of private policies banning the firearms.

    - Sheena McFarland
    smcfarland@sltrib.com
    801-257-8619


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Looks like someone at the Trib figured the fix was in. An article today reports that HB 473 passed. But I watched it not come up for vote last night and have double checked its status page this AM to find that the enacting clause was struck; a sure sign it died. I remind all that the house vote on HB 473, after being amended is not really a very good metric of who supported and who attacked us. The most accurate measure of tha is the vote to adopt Urquhart's hostile amendment. That was only a 41-29-5. That vote can be found on page 2025 of the House Journals (day 43) this year at http://www.livepublish.le.state.ut.u...-j.htm&2.0.
    As is traditional, the speaker did not vote on this, but was a known strong supporter of the hostile amendment and did take the unusual step of voting for the final, anti-gun version of the bill. Therefore, I believe his name should be included among those who voted to hurt gun rights on the vote below.

    A "Yea" vote is anti-gun. A no vote was supporting our rights. REMEMBER who voted to hurt us and let's start finding challengers to these Reps and make sure to turn out pro-gun friends, family, and neighbors to the caucas on the 25th of this month (tuesday).

    Charles

    Yeas, 41; Nays, 29; Absent or not voting, 5.
    Voting in the affirmative were: Representatives (These reps need to feel political pain in convention, primary, and the general election, REGARDLESS of party affiliaition or what else they may have done over the session.)

    Aagard Allen Andersen Barrus Bigelow Bird Biskupski Brown Chavez-Houck D. Clark S. Clark Cosgrove Dee Draxler Dunnigan Ferry Janice Fisher Froerer Gowans Hemingway Holdaway Hunsaker Hutchings Johnson King Last Litvack Mascaro McGee Menlove Morgan Moss Neuenschwander Riesen Seelig Snow Urquhart(Sponsor of the amendment and also responsible for killing our good parking lot gun bill) Webb Wheatley Wiley Winn [add Speaker Curtis here as he made his intentions very clear behind the scenes and on the final vote and also had a role in killing our good parking lot bill]

    Voting in the negative were: Representatives
    Daw Donnelson Dougall Duckworth Julie Fisher Fowlke Frank Garn Gibson Greenwood Grover Hansen Harper Hendrickson Herrod Hughes Kiser Mathis Morley Newbold Noel Oda Painter Ray Sandstrom(Sandstrom was a CHAMPION for our rights as he spoke strongly and eloquently against this amendment, he needs our support this election) Sumsion Tilton Walker Wimmer

    Absent or not voting were: Representatives
    Bowman Lockhart McIff Shurtliff Curtis [Do not give Curtis a pass here. He definately supported this hostile amendment.]


    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8472454

    Gun owners, colleges both win
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Article Last Updated:03/06/2008 02:21:42 AM MST

    The gun debate on Capitol Hill was less contentious this year than previous ones, and both universities and firearms owners won concessions in the fight.
    Concealed-weapon permit holders received confirmation that they can openly carry their guns in nearly every public space, including sporting venues and hospitals. However, they cannot do so on college campuses. The bill also says permit holders would not be punished for accidentally or unintentionally showing their weapon.
    The outcome came as a relief to college administrators, who worried that exposed guns in classrooms would make it difficult to recruit and retain faculty.
    Lawmakers also adopted a bill stating that the government cannot infringe on gun-owners' rights during a state of emergency.
    Another bill that attempted to put Second Amendment rights above private-property rights was shelved in the House. The measure would have allowed concealed-weapon permit holders to keep their guns in their cars while at work or shopping, regardless of private policies banning the firearms.
    - Sheena McFarland


    http://le.utah.gov/~2008/status/hbillsta/hb0473.htm

    H.B. 473 Firearms Amendments (Oda, C.)

    Date Action Location Vote
    2/1/2008 Bill Numbered by Title Without any Substance LRGC
    2/1/2008 Numbered Bill Made Available for Public Distributi LRGC
    2/1/2008 Bill Numbered by Title Without any Substance LRGC
    2/7/2008 Bill Numbered but not Distributed LRGC
    2/7/2008 Numbered Bill Made Available for Public Distributi LRGC
    2/7/2008 LFA/ bill assigned to staff for fiscal analysis LRGC
    2/7/2008 LFA/ bill sent to agencies for fiscal input LRGC
    2/7/2008 House/ received from General Counsel HDOCKET
    2/8/2008 House/ read 1st time (Introduced) HSTRUL
    2/11/2008 LFA/ fiscal note sent to sponsor HSTRUL
    2/11/2008 LFA/ fiscal note sent to floor HSTRUL
    2/11/2008 House/ to Printing with fiscal note HSTRUL
    2/12/2008 House/ received bill with fiscal note from Print HSTRUL
    2/14/2008 House/ to standing committee HSTLAW
    2/18/2008 House Comm - Favorable Recommendation HSTLAW 9 0 2
    2/19/2008 House/ committee report favorable HSTLAW
    2/19/2008 House/ read 2nd time H3RDHB
    2/22/2008 House/ 3rd Reading Calendar to Rules Committee HSTRUL
    2/27/2008 House/ Rules Committee to 3rd Reading Calendar H3RDHB
    2/29/2008 House/ make Special Order HSPEC
    3/3/2008 House/ read 3rd time HSPEC
    3/3/2008 House/ amended HSPEC
    3/3/2008 House/ passed 3rd reading SSEC 60 11 4
    3/3/2008 House/ to Senate SSEC
    3/3/2008 Senate/ received from House SINTRO
    3/3/2008 Senate/ read 1st (Introduced) SSTRUL
    3/5/2008 Senate/ enacting clause struck HCLERK
    3/5/2008 Senate/ to House HCLERK
    3/5/2008 House/ filed HFILE
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Good thing you posted it while you could as they have now pulled it.

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    Concealed-weapon permit holders received confirmation that they can openly carry their guns in nearly every public space, including sporting venues and hospitals. However, they cannot do so on college campuses. The bill also says permit holders would not be punished for accidentally or unintentionally showing their weapon.

    So is it illegal to just oc in a hospital without a permit and or sporting venues and such?

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    rocknsnow wrote:
    So is it illegal to just oc in a hospital without a permit and or sporting venues and such?
    No, the law has not changed. You can still open carry everywhere that you can conceal. Just don't OC at a school without a permit.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I would also remember that private property rules are still in effect. If it's a private hospital or venue, mgmt can still ask you to leave.

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    Got, thanks guys.

  12. #12
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    The article has been replaced with the truth. Here is an interesting reader comment that follows.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8485853

    Tumbleweed Tom: 3/7/2008 8:05:00 AM

    Open carry is a given. Your permit simply "permits" you to carry loaded and concealed rather than openly AND it permits you to carry in a school zone. There is no law that says you cannot carry openly in a school zone and if you do it is a crime with such and such penalties. There simply is no such law. So the Open Carry bunch should have their monthly meetings at the U of U union building cafeteria just to help U of U lemmings learn how not to panic and throw themselves into the ocean every time they see a gun in a holster (NOT a threatening gesture). I have faith the U of U students will eventually become desensitized, but doubt the profs and administrators will ever be able to overcome their histrionic personality disorders (are these guys poppin' estrogen?).
    HMMM... An open carry (with permits, of course) meet at the University of Utah?
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    I see that the Salt lake Tribune has joined ranks with papers like the Washington Post and the New York Times in dispensing PSH.

    It's amazing how willing so manyjournalistsare about showing how willfullyignorant and biased they are.
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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