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OT: This happened in my neighborhood

swillden

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Must be nice to live close to the cops for a prompt response, ours are "30 minute out as an average", their words to my wife.
The cops were all over the place. It was the sirens that made her think she needed to check her garage. They weren't 30 minutes away, they were 30 seconds away. In a different situation, a different reaction would be appropriate, but we're not talking about a different situation.
 

thebastidge

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As others have said, it is not hindsight that provides the guideline on your actions, but what you know in the moment.

She had no way to know he wasn't after her or her property. Someone in your garage stealing your power tools may or may not turn violent when caught in the act. Anecdotally, this is why my dad had dentures from a fairly young age: he caught a couple guys breaking into his car, and they smashed him in the face with a pipe he never saw coming.

"Hot" burglaries are uncommon in the United States, but when someone invades your house when you are home, the chances are *very* good that the encounter will turn violent. He is not merely an unwelcome guest, not merely "uninvited", he is an *invader* and it would do you well to be mentally prepared for that.

I will admit there is a psychological step between the garage and the living spaces, just as there is between being in the yard and inside the building. But again, hot burglaries are rare and a high percentage that do occur, involve violence.

On another note, this woman should have STFU about what happened until she was sure there won't be legal repercussions. As responsible gun owners and users, we need to be able to articulate what, where, when, how, and why both to the public at large and to Law Enforcement if necessary. If you don't have a coherent narrative, then keep your mouth shut until you do. Not saying to make up a story or lie, but do not incriminate yourself because you simply didn't think through what you're saying, or give the rest of us a bad name because you seem unstable, poorly trained, or uncertain of yourself.

SWilden says: "I like them (Castle Doctrine laws -ed.) because I realize that making accurate risk assessments in a situation like that is difficult, and I don't want to be armchair quarterbacked by the courts. I'm willing to accept that some criminals may be hurt or killed improperly by poorly-trained or excessively aggressive homeowners rather than risk homeowners who were truly just defending themselves going to prison or losing everything they own. "

I agree with this 100%

Also the fact the he didn't have to force a door or window does not make his criminal activity any less dangerous to you and yours. In this case we find out from the beginning of the story that he was merely hiding and that he was willing to run away.

However, in the actual event, the sequence of events isn't laid out like that. The end result doesn't come first, with the explanation and justificationsneatly tagged on as an afterthought.

In the first person version of the story, a woman hears a bunch of police commotion, checks her house out, and finds an unknown man present in her home. There's already enough bad juju going on in her environment to make her nervous in the first place, and NOW THERE'S A MAN IN HER HOME. She shoots (perhaps foolishly and in a poorly thought-out and untrained manner) to scare him. He runs away. She shoots again in the air because she is hyped to the max on adrenaline, scared, and because chase instincts make her want to do *something*. Read Dave Grossman's book on when most killing occurs on the battlefield, it's not when orderly ranks are looking each other in the eye, it's when one side is routed and triggers an instinct to kill prey.

This does not make it right, but it is something that is best overcome by training and forethought, to predetermine some of those decision branches when cooler heads can prevail.

Better training on when deadly force is justified, both ethically and legally, and better training on safety are what this woman appears to need.
 

swillden

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thebastidge wrote:
Better training on when deadly force is justified, both ethically and legally, and better training on safety are what this woman appears to need.
Agreed. A dose of common sense wouldn't hurt as well. If you strongly suspect that a bad guy has locked himself in your garage, the sensible thing to do is to hunker down in a defensible position and call the police. Actually entering the garage is needlessly putting yourself at risk.

Years ago I was trained to search and clear buildings in both law enforcement and military situations and the force-on-force exercises made it pretty clear to me that going through a door with a bad guy on the other side is a very dangerous action. Even doing it the military way -- rolling fragmentation grenades in first or, better yet, creating your own entrance with a satchel charge and then following grenades in -- is pretty dangerous. I got "killed" enough times that my preferred combat clearing method is an air strike.

Going in without grenades, not even flash-bangs, just to protect a garage full of replaceable stuff? Forget it. Hunker down, call the cops, let them deal with it.
 

swillden

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thebastidge wrote:
If you're not willing to defend it, why should the cops?
I would have thought that was blindingly obvious.

They'll bring a dozen officers, surround the place to make sure he can't escape, then try to talk him out safely. If that doesn't work, they'll bring a SWAT team with body armor, helmets and plenty of shoothouse training. If they feel it's necessary they also have CS and flashbangs.

In short, they have the manpower, equipment and training to do it as safely as possible, so that hopefully no one gets hurt, except maybe the bad guy, if he chooses.

What have you got? You and your wife? How much experience and training do you have at search and clear operations? What equipment? Body armor? Got anything to incapacitate an area either briefly (flashbang) or for a longer period of time (CS)?

Search and clear operations are extremely dangerous if the enemy is armed. Even with the best equipment, tactics, training and overwhelming force, it's entirely possible for the blue force to get hurt. Without all those advantages, it's extremely likely that you'll get hurt.

It's just not smart.
 

Bear 45/70

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swillden wrote:
thebastidge wrote:
If you're not willing to defend it, why should the cops?
I would have thought that was blindingly obvious.

They'll bring a dozen officers, surround the place to make sure he can't escape, then try to talk him out safely. If that doesn't work, they'll bring a SWAT team with body armor, helmets and plenty of shoothouse training. If they feel it's necessary they also have CS and flashbangs.

In short, they have the manpower, equipment and training to do it as safely as possible, so that hopefully no one gets hurt, except maybe the bad guy, if he chooses.

What have you got? You and your wife? How much experience and training do you have at search and clear operations? What equipment? Body armor? Got anything to incapacitate an area either briefly (flashbang) or for a longer period of time (CS)?

Search and clear operations are extremely dangerous if the enemy is armed. Even with the best equipment, tactics, training and overwhelming force, it's entirely possible for the blue force to get hurt. Without all those advantages, it's extremely likely that you'll get hurt.

It's just not smart.
And if your neighbors are true neighbors and citizens they willback you up.
 

swillden

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
And if your neighbors are true citizens they willback shoot the jack booted nazis as they deserve. But then you can always live some where they can't do that to you. You on the other hand would roll over and rat your neighbors out.
True citizens would shoot cops who are trying to arrest a felon who broke into my home?

I'm speechless.
 

Bear 45/70

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swillden wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
And if your neighbors are true citizens they willback shoot the jack booted nazis as they deserve. But then you can always live some where they can't do that to you. You on the other hand would roll over and rat your neighbors out.
True citizens would shoot cops who are trying to arrest a felon who broke into my home?

I'm speechless.
wtf.gif
Make sense or don't post.
 

swillden

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
swillden wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
And if your neighbors are true citizens they willback shoot the jack booted nazis as they deserve. But then you can always live some where they can't do that to you. You on the other hand would roll over and rat your neighbors out.
True citizens would shoot cops who are trying to arrest a felon who broke into my home?

I'm speechless.
wtf.gif
Make sense or don't post.
Dude... you need to go back and read the thread. Here, I'll recap it for you:

I said that if you know someone is in your garage, you should call the cops rather than trying to get them out yourself.

thebastidge said that you should do it yourself rather than call the cops.

I said that it's dangerous, and the cops have the manpower and equipment to do the job more safely.

You quoted me and said that if my neighbors were true citizens they'd "back shoot the jack-booted nazis" and that I'd rat my neighbors out -- for shooting the jack-booted Nazis, I assume. From the context, the only jack-booted nazis you could have been referring to are the cops trying to get the invader out of my garage.

I responded that your response left me speechless.

Got it now?
 

Bear 45/70

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swillden wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
swillden wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
And if your neighbors are true citizens they willback shoot the jack booted nazis as they deserve. But then you can always live some where they can't do that to you. You on the other hand would roll over and rat your neighbors out.
True citizens would shoot cops who are trying to arrest a felon who broke into my home?

I'm speechless.
wtf.gif
Make sense or don't post.
Dude... you need to go back and read the thread. Here, I'll recap it for you:

I said that if you know someone is in your garage, you should call the cops rather than trying to get them out yourself.

thebastidge said that you should do it yourself rather than call the cops.

I said that it's dangerous, and the cops have the manpower and equipment to do the job more safely.

You quoted me and said that if my neighbors were true citizens they'd "back shoot the jack-booted nazis" and that I'd rat my neighbors out -- for shooting the jack-booted Nazis, I assume. From the context, the only jack-booted nazis you could have been referring to are the cops trying to get the invader out of my garage.

I responded that your response left me speechless.

Got it now?
Sorry, working 2 threads and got crossed up.
 

Jered

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just_a_car wrote:
Euromutt wrote:
As for Jered's suggestion to "decrease the felon population," she didn't know at the time he was a felon, did she? Sure, the wailing sirens would have been something of an indication, but she didn't know. I mean, if a cop were to essentially execute a person because he suspected the guy was a felon, we'd be outraged, and rightly so.
I agree with you except for this last bit... of course she knew he was a felon; he was considered to be a burglar under RCW 9A.52.020... at the very least, if he could explain he was "only hiding" he would still be charged with a gross misdemeanor of criminal tresspass.
I was thinking of the facts from the woman's point of view. If someone enters and remains unlawfully within a building, that person has accomplished a substantial step toward the commission of a felony.

I was thinking more of RCW 9A.52.030 when I wrote my post.

However, the question is not what the guy did, but what the woman had reason to think that the guy would do.

Is is reasonable to assume that a person who goes into your garage without your consent intends to commit a felony in your garage?
 

Euromutt

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just_a_car wrote:
Hrm... nope, sorry. If you had taken the time to follow the link I posted, you'd see that if he had "intended" to commit any crime other than the basic tresspass, he could be charged with either a B or C felony.

....and, even though we have the hindsight to "know" that he didn't intend on doing anything but hide, how was Livermore supposed to know that he wasn't stealing something from her garage (felony) or hiding there to wait until night to attack her (felony)? She couldn't have known and I'm sure most juries would see that.
Fair point re: the waiting until night bit. Less so with the theft part, even though you're quite right that that would indeed have constituted a felony. But the law frowns (and that's putting it mildly) on the use of lethal force to prevent or halt a property crime, even a felonious one. When joeroket said "a felony must be being committed against them," I think he implictly meant "against their person," as opposed to against their material possessions.

just_a_car wrote:
Now, I agree if the man was running away, there is absolutely no justification to put booger-hooker to bang-button, whether as a warning or intentionally to harm. But she had every right to keep the sights on him until he was out of sight, just in case he turned and pulled a weapon.
Oh, yeah, no argument from me there; the "inching towards the door" bit might well have been a feint, after all. Let me make it clear that Livermore's firing of "warning shots" is the only part in the whole situation that I take issue with. She was fully justified in pointing her weapon at the guy. But in my book, either you shoot to incapacitate, or you don't shoot at all. If you're going to send high-velocity lead into the environment, the only place it should go is into the body of the individual whom you reasonably believe poses a threat to your physical wellbeing.
 

thebastidge

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Swillden:

No doubt about your point in regards to safety and overwhelming force. Prudence is a virtue. My point is a bit more philosophical- that a person who is unwilling to defend themselves and their property doesn't give society much incentive to do it for them.

Yes, if it is practical, it would be best in many cases to wait for police. But it is not always possible, much less practical, and person who has the correct mental state can affect things. Paraphrasing many famous strategists, a good decision now is beter than a perfect plan next week. It would also be great if the police were structurally capable of incorporating citizen assistance more often, but the mindset of most police organizations would find this insane, or anathema for philosophical reasons, not to mention liability issues in our overly litigious society.

A person should not need to fear going into their own garage. Now, I'm no pie in the sky liberal imagining there is no war, I'm just saying that if a person decides to confront a criminal, I am not going to criticize them for that, rather I will praise their civic-mindedness and courage. I am criticizing her technique, not her intentions. There are times when intentions matter. Results matter too, and that's why I'm not a leftist, but intentions do matter.

The goal of many of us here (there are a couple vociferous exceptions) is to not only make ourselves and our families safer through our awareness, weapons training, and carry habits, but to make society in general a safer place, and if criminals are aware that there are many people in a given area that may well defend themselves without recourse to the police, it makes that a safer area.

Cowering and waiting for the police isnot such a blindingly obvious choice when you take into account that courage is also a virtue.
 

Euromutt

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Jered wrote:
I was thinking of the facts from the woman's point of view. If someone enters and remains unlawfully within a building, that person has accomplished a substantial step toward the commission of a felony.

[...]

Is is reasonable to assume that a person who goes into your garage without your consent intends to commit a felony in your garage?
Sure, but like I said to just_a_car, there's felonies against property, and felonies against persons, and the law generally considers lethal force an appropriate response only to the latter, not the former. Again, I think Livermore was fully justified--morally and legally, at least, leaving aside considerations of tactical advisability--in using a gun and Doberman to confront Guevara Martinez. The guy might have intended to commit harm against her person.

But muddying the issue is the fact that Livermore, by her own admission, did not keep the side door to her garage locked. Most of the reason I keep all the external doors to my house locked is that, that way, I don't have to concern myself with the possibility than an intruder is merely a "casual" burglar, intent only on opportunistic theft; because any intruder has to have broken through at least one locked door, there can be no question that he is a home invader, with the forensic evidence to support my case that I feared the worst and responded appropriately.
 

Euromutt

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
At least she pulled the trigger.
Thereby violating at least one of the Four Rules of Gun Safety ("Be sure of your target, and what lies behind it," and arguably also "Never aim your weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy").
 

Bear 45/70

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Euromutt wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
At least she pulled the trigger.
Thereby violating at least one of the Four Rules of Gun Safety ("Be sure of your target, and what lies behind it," and arguably also "Never aim your weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy").
Alot ofpeople are killed with their own weapon because they think it is a magic wand that stops the bad guy in his tracks, just by showing they have a gun. Run #1, if you pull your weapon, either be prepared to pull the trigger or don't carry the damn thing. She had it in her hand and felt threated, she pulled the trigger. I think she shot the wrong target but at least she pulled the trigger. You guys weren't there and aren't her and have no clue how she actually felt, she probably doesn't even remember how she felt either. Second guessing is useless. You are also way to worried about the BG's rights. All your rules are real fine, until the real thing happens, then they can easily get you killed. The only rule in combat is "I live, no matter what". If you've never been there you can't possibly understand
 

joeroket

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Euromutt wrote:
Jered wrote:
I was thinking of the facts from the woman's point of view. If someone enters and remains unlawfully within a building, that person has accomplished a substantial step toward the commission of a felony.

[...]

Is is reasonable to assume that a person who goes into your garage without your consent intends to commit a felony in your garage?
Sure, but like I said to just_a_car, there's felonies against property, and felonies against persons, and the law generally considers lethal force an appropriate response only to the latter, not the former. Again, I think Livermore was fully justified--morally and legally, at least, leaving aside considerations of tactical advisability--in using a gun and Doberman to confront Guevara Martinez. The guy might have intended to commit harm against her person.

But muddying the issue is the fact that Livermore, by her own admission, did not keep the side door to her garage locked. Most of the reason I keep all the external doors to my house locked is that, that way, I don't have to concern myself with the possibility than an intruder is merely a "casual" burglar, intent only on opportunistic theft; because any intruder has to have broken through at least one locked door, there can be no question that he is a home invader, with the forensic evidence to support my case that I feared the worst and responded appropriately.

Not entirely true. RCW 9A.16.050 give authorization to use deadly force "when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony ...".

She very well could have thought he was there to commit burglary but in light of the fact the she had reason to believe that he was simply hiding from the police because of all the activity there was reason to believe that he was simply trespassing which is only a gross misdemeanor.
 

joeroket

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Euromutt wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
At least she pulled the trigger.
Thereby violating at least one of the Four Rules of Gun Safety ("Be sure of your target, and what lies behind it," and arguably also "Never aim your weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy").
Alot ofpeople are killed with their own weapon because they think it is a magic wand that stops the bad guy in his tracks, just by showing they have a gun. Run #1, if you pull your weapon, either be prepared to pull the trigger or don't carry the damn thing. She had it in her hand and felt threated, she pulled the trigger. I think she shot the wrong target but at least she pulled the trigger. You guys weren't there and aren't her and have no clue how she actually felt, she probably doesn't even remember how she felt either. Second guessing is useless. You are also way to worried about the BG's rights. All your rules are real fine, until the real thing happens, then they can easily get you killed. The only rule in combat is "I live, no matter what". If you've never been there you can't possibly understand
I agree 100% Bear. The only bad thing is that in instances like hers it is damned near impossible to take in the totality of the events. I think, even though I stated the opposite earlier in this thread that she probably had the right to use deadly force and she should have aimed for the BG instead of her poor camping equipment.
 

thebastidge

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joeroket: "She very well could have thought he was there to commit burglary but in light of the fact the she had reason to believe that he was simply hiding from the police because of all the activity there was reason to believe that he was simply trespassing which is only a gross misdemeanor." (emphasis added)

This does not follow AT ALL. If I thought someone was hiding from the cops, that's far MORE reason to believe they may turn violent, and have not simply wandered ito the wrong place by accident.
 
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