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Thread: Nampa Walmart OC incident.

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    *Note* This is the first time I've gone into Wal-Mart in probably 2-3 months because of
    negative reactions to other posters here on OCDO.


    This incident happend less that 45 minutes ago. 2056 MST.


    Walk into Wal-Mart OC'ing. Wearing a plain T-shirt tucked in and respectable blue jeans. My brother is with me and he is also dressed respectably.

    As soon as I approach the greeter he looks at me and points at my gun. I say, “I’m legal to do this in compliance with Wal-Mart policy.” He says, “No you can’t do that.”

    So I say, “get your manager.” He promptly does call for one on the radio.

    Then the greeter sort of “apologizes” for having to stop me. He continually said stuff like, “now I’m a gun man,” “my job is to stop you when they say no guns in the store,” and “You’re battle is with management.”

    The first manager gets there – Asst. Manager.

    I repeat to him that the Wal-Mart Company policy is to follow all State and Federal laws. “State law allows me to do this” The guy looks at me and says, “Ok.”

    The Asst. Manager asks if my brother has a sidearm as well. He doesn’t and we let them know that. FYI, my brother is under 18 so no OC of a handgun for a little longer.

    I then ask the Asst. Manager if I need to go elsewhere to shop.

    He says exact quote, “I don’t know what the state law is on this.” This guy did know that you can OC in AZ but not here in ID. So I informed him that it is legal to OC here in ID.

    Another Manager shows up. I believe this one was a department manager.

    Dept. Manager states, “Our company policy doesn’t allow,” to which I state, “Actually it does, it says that if follows all state and federal laws.”
    The Dept. Manager then states, “But this is private property.” Yes I agree but the policy is that I can carry in Wal-Mart.

    The Dept Manager then says, “Can’t you leave it in your car?” I ask him, “Why would I want to?”

    Dept. Manager, “Why do you need to carry? You’ve got your hammer cocked.”

    At this point I try to answer the “why I need to carry question.”

    “32 People were told they didn’t need to carry.” And then he cuts me off. I was making reference to the Virginia Tech Massacre of unarmed students.

    Another manager then shows up and is acts totally different. I believe he may have been the Night Manager.

    He states, “You can’t come in here with that on, I DON”T CARE.”

    I try to let him know about the Wal-Mart policy at this point.

    He then states, “Wal-Mart Policy is private property.”

    I shake my head at that statement.

    He then continues, “I’m going to call the police right now if you’re not out of here.”

    The Dept. Manager then jumps in and says, “Just take it out to your car dude. (My recording becomes unclear at this point).

    I immediately begin leaving the store as the Night Manager was pulling his cell phone out of his pocket.

    It was interesting that these guys didn’t follow me out of the door.

    Needless to say I’m slightly upset over the whole matter.

    The Walgreen’s across the street from this location received my business and will continue to if the Wal-Mart doesn't do something to fix this problem.

    I'm attaching the link to the audio recording I made of the evening. Sorry for the quality as it was in my lower pants pocket.

    http://www.mattlevi.zoomshare.com/fi...experience.m4a









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    Please don't argue with managers and so forth.

    It just raises tempers, creates hostility.

    If they don't know the policy and law before the OC'er walks in, and they object,I suspect they're not going to accept the OC'ers declarations of policy or law.

    Just politely acknowledge their right, get names if possible in a friendly way, and leave.

    Then contactthe next level of management up to make sure the word gets passed along to the store level. Not even a complaint, if you already know the store doesn't ban firearms. Just a nice note to Mrs. District Manager that store manager Bob wasn't aware of the policy and please bring him up to speed.Etc.

    It goes so much smoother that way. Doesn't irritate people, and lets them save face a little when you do return.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I didn't realize that Walmart policy was pretty much the same as Cabella's. I thought we were just having troubles getting them to change their policy and allow us in. Do we have any kind of letter from upper management or such to use as ammo? You remained calm and respectful as far as I'm concerned. No reason not to speak up so long as you do it right.

    Also, I didn't post this since it wasn't firearm related....but several weeks ago I was detained until the police arived after buying $150 bucks of merchandise at the Walmart in Garden City on State St. I wouldn't show them my receipt...when they eventually found the girl who rang me up and confirmed it wasn't stolen, I took my receipt out and promptly returned it all. Getting stopped for no reason really gets on my nerves...next time, I think they'll have to phisically detain me, I'm gonna keep going towards the door when they ask me to stop.

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    When I was stopped in Walmart for open carrying, the manager called the regional manager who told the manager that it was his decision and that walmart is private property so they can do what they want. I was told to leave or they would call the police. Walmart firearms policy may have been to mirror state law at some point but not anymore.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    That is not true, nathan. Sometimes even the DM's don't know. Call corporate office in Bentonville and it should be all fixed.

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    Sounds very similar to my experience at the Eagle wal-mart.

    Have you contacted corporate yet?

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    I have never understood showing a receipt when walking out to be a problem. Costco has required it for as long as I can remember and frankly I think it is a good idea for a business to do so.

    That being said, this forum has nothing to do with insurance policies of corporations. This is specifically about OC and in this instance, a bad experience at a company which has a policy to allow OC.

    I suggest we keep all posts directed to that topic and no other, as doing so will result in us staying focused and will help to avoid flaming other members.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    jack wrote:
    You should open a business and see why loss prevention is so important in retail. If you pulled that crap in one of my shops, I would ban you from the property. We don't need business from imbeciles. Walmart like all businesses has every legal right to check receipts.
    Please cite any statute that gives any business the right to check receipts before "allowing" you to leave with your property. I doubt that any such statute exists.

    Once you have payed for the merchandise, it legally becomes YOUR property i.e. YOUR EFFECTS, and the receipt becomes part of YOUR PAPERS.

    The 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution protects your right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure of your person, papers, and effects.

    Unless the Walmart employee has reasonable suspiscion that you have stolenmerchandise, (in most States that means someone has to actually witness you stealing the merchandise), then they have absolutely NO RIGHT to seize your person (detain you) and absolutely NO RIGHT tosearch your papers (your receipt).

    Because a business is private property, it means that they can deny you entry for any reason, or ask you to leave for any reason, i.e. Open Carry, however, it doesn't give them any special authority to violate any of your Constitutional Rights.


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    Decoligny wrote:
    jack wrote:
    You should open a business and see why loss prevention is so important in retail. If you pulled that crap in one of my shops, I would ban you from the property. We don't need business from imbeciles. Walmart like all businesses has every legal right to check receipts.
    Please cite any statute that gives any business the right to check receipts before "allowing" you to leave with your property. I doubt that any such statute exists.

    Once you have payed for the merchandise, it legally becomes YOUR property i.e. YOUR EFFECTS, and the receipt becomes part of YOUR PAPERS.

    The 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution protects your right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure of your person, papers, and effects.

    Unless the Walmart employee has reasonable suspiscion that you have stolenmerchandise, (in most States that means someone has to actually witness you stealing the merchandise), then they have absolutely NO RIGHT to seize your person (detain you) and absolutely NO RIGHT tosearch your papers (your receipt).

    Because a business is private property, it means that they can deny you entry for any reason, or ask you to leave for any reason, i.e. Open Carry, however, it doesn't give them any special authority to violate any of your Constitutional Rights.
    +1 Decoligny.

    See below for a decent explanation and discussion on the receipt checking issue. (doesn't add much more than what Decoligny said)

    http://consumerist.com/consumer/lega...ipt-217098.php

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    jack, after reading your first response i wanted to disagree with you with all my heart. HOWEVER, after reading your last response, I must admit you are sooooo right! bottom line, and i qoute you "NOT THE IMAGE WE WANTTO PROJECT TO THE COMMUNITY"









    jersey





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    jack wrote:
    SNIP Astore can require you to show a receipt for merchandise before leaving a store. Not having a receipt and attempting to leave with merchandiseis in fact reasonable articulable suspicion to detain someone . Once the person steps outside the store it is shoplifting, while inside it is illegal concealment of merchandise (in most States), either way they can detain you.
    Cite, please.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Jersey Ron wrote:
    jack, after reading your first response i wanted to disagree with you with all my heart. HOWEVER, after reading your last response, I must admit you are sooooo right! bottom line, and i qoute you "NOT THE IMAGE WE WANTTO PROJECT TO THE COMMUNITY"









    jersey



    I concur (jack & jersey)... This is the singular apprehension I wrestle with whenforced toOC... Being stereotyped along withthose that seek out confrontation for the sake of confrontation. If you just have to shop at Wal-mart (and others that don't know policy and law), you must accept that you're going to encounter these issues, so why go? Its like wearing a leisure suit into a biker bar...they just can'thelp themselves.

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    Having never been asked to see a receipt at Walmart, I have never given the wrong image. However, if they do stop me and demand to see my receipt, then I will await the police, and then afterwards I will be returning all the merchandise for a full refund for being treated like a thief. If they are going to treat me like a thief, then they had better have a DAMN GOOD reason to treat me like a thief. And just because 99 sheep agree to have their rights shorn doesn't mean that I will willingly be the 100th.

    Open Carry is not a cause just because we wan't to Open Carry. It is a cause for some of us because we are standing our ground against the slow degradation of our rights. All of our rights, not just the right to keep and bear arms.

    I'll bet there were two or three black people on the bus who were saying "Damn it woman, just get up and move, you're making us look like asses" when Rosa Parks refused to have her rights trampled.

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    When you allow people with some image of authority to control what you do, you are giving in. All of my rights are important, and unfortunately some here in this forum think that only 2A rights matter.

    Being detained and required to prove I didn't shoplift kinda goes against my rights of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" as well as my 4th Amendment rights to be secure in my papers and effects...

    Once you handed me my receipt, and my effects (merchandise) it became mine, and the 4th Amendment does apply...

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...

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    Citizen wrote:
    jack wrote:
    SNIP Astore can require you to show a receipt for merchandise before leaving a store. Not having a receipt and attempting to leave with merchandiseis in fact reasonable articulable suspicion to detain someone . Once the person steps outside the store it is shoplifting, while inside it is illegal concealment of merchandise (in most States), either way they can detain you.
    Cite, please.
    If you read my above response I addressed that, " not all situations that constitute reasonable articulable suspicion are spelled out in law. " These matters are addressed in court.

    Refusing to show a receipt while carrying out merchandise would be considered reasonable articulable suspicion for loss prevention to detain someone for investigation, and doesn't constitute an infringement of your rights.

    You are the one singling yourself out as a suspicious person and possibly a thief by refusing to show a receipt.

    I think some of you guys are mixing up reasonable articulable suspicion (required to detain someone) and probable cause (required for an arrest to be made).


    A business doesn't have to allow people to carry out merchandise without verifying it has been paid for.

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    jack wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    jack wrote:
    SNIP Astore can require you to show a receipt for merchandise before leaving a store. Not having a receipt and attempting to leave with merchandiseis in fact reasonable articulable suspicion to detain someone . Once the person steps outside the store it is shoplifting, while inside it is illegal concealment of merchandise (in most States), either way they can detain you.
    Cite, please.
    If you read my above response I addressed that, " not all situations that constitute reasonable articulable suspicion are spelled out in law. " These matters are addressed in court.
    Thank you for suggesting a possible explanation for misunderstanding--reasonable suspicion vs probable cause.

    I did see your comment about the matter beingdecided by courts. I've come across a number of court opinions wherea court said a court would have to makethe determination of whether reasonable suspicion existed for the stop or detention.

    The statements for whichI amrequesting a cite are declarations. A citationis not limited to a statute.One can cite a court opinion.


    1. Are you aware of a court case where the court said a store can require a customer to show a receipt?

    2. Are you aware of a court case where a court said loss-prevention can detain someone for refusing to show a receipt?


    3. Are you aware of a court case where a court said refusing to show a receipt was reasonable suspicion ofshoplifting?
    Without such citations,or other evidence, I and the rest of the forum must assume you are just giving personal opinion.

    It really would be a service to the forum if you had some cites, or made clearthe source of your information.None of us have to obey a personalopinion. None have to obey a store's loss prevention policies (with some exceptions.) All of usaresubjectto the law, including case law. Gosh, if you know of some, would you mind telling the rest of us so we can avoid running afoul of it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    jack wrote:
    SNIP I have really been about as clear on this asI possibly can...(and the rest of the post).
    I don't think words like "ignorant" or "grow up" really contribute to the discussion.

    I'm trying to get a handle on the full picture. I'd really appreciate it if you would stop treating me as an object of antagonism.

    Since you didn't cite a court opinion, I'll take it that you didn't have one. I do appreciate your contribution that courts seem to accept the absence of receipt.

    But its not clear that absence of receipt alone has been treated by the court as sufficient to detain, arrest, or convict. Surely there must be other factors that come into play, such as observed concealment by loss-prevention, or observed bypassing thecash registerswhile openly carrying merchandise out the door.

    What I'm trying to find out is whether I am required by statutory law or case law tocomply with a store's policy with regard to showing a receipt upon demandof store staff. And whether I can be convicted of petty larceny just for refusing to show a receipt, even if I have one.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
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    You should open a business and see why loss prevention is so important in retail. If you pulled that crap in one of my shops, I would ban you from the property. We don't need business from imbeciles. Walmart like all businesses has every legal right to check receipts.

    If you guys keep thisup in Walmart they will come out with a no gun policy and post signs, you wait and see. Losing the business of a few that open carry is inconsequential. Private property rights need to be respected, arguing points of law and store policey with managment is counter productive to the open carry cause.
    Actually, if it is not a warehouse club whose rules you have agreed to and the merchandise is paid for. NO STORE has a right to check receipts. You entered into no contract. And you know what? I have said no when they said they need to check my receipt. And you know what they did at Wal-Mart? NOTHING.

    http://www.danielcurran.com/2004/08/...eceipt-and.php

    http://consumerist.com/consumer/lega...ipt-217098.php

    http://sturmdrang.wordpress.com/2007...st-buy-target/
    Subsisto tutus. Subsisto secundus emendatio.

    Tyrants come in all shapes and sizes, as do those who do their bidding. Anyone who tells you that the threat of tyranny is long over, is either a fool, an enemy, or BOTH.

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    I don't believe you are ever required to abide by a store's policy, if you don't want to abide by their policy, then do as we do when stores have no guns policies...Leave.

    In Utah the law states that a business/agent must have "Reasonable probable cause" to detain/arrest someone for shoplifting. I understand that to mean a reasonable person given the same facts would assume that the person was guilty of committing a crime. If I am leaving a store with or without my purchases and someone asks me to stop and prove I've paid for everything in my possession, that to me is being detained.

    If they don't have the probable cause, then they are civilly and criminally liable for false arrest/detainment. In other words they better be willing and able to say they believe I stole something...In my opinion that would include a description of the item they believe I stole.

    I really am not trying to be a jerk, but why should I submit to a voluntary search? Does not submitting to a request to be searched automatically give them probable cause to arrest me? It all comes down to each State's laws, and the interpretation of those laws. Until a case comes across stating one way or the other, I don't think my mind or the mind of others will be changed.

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    jack wrote:
    I have really been about as clear on this asI possibly can. Many on here just flat out don't understand reasonable articulable suspicion and probable cause ,and what is allowed under each.
    These terms apply to officers of the law and what is required to detain and arrest a citizen.

    Having worked loss prevention in the past (for three years) I can tell you that we regularly detained people on suspicion of shoplifting, search purses, cars on several occasions (when shoplifters were followed to their car and observed placing items in their car) never once were they Innocent in any case involving myself.
    Loss prevention are private citizens, not law officers -- you can attempt to 'detain' someone; however, if you're holding someone against their will without reason and, no, not showing a receipt for THEIR property is not a good reason, you will likely be slapped with a civil suit.

    In three years I personally arrested well over 100 people for shoplifting and even more for illegal concealment of merchandise.
    So, you were law enforcement? I thought you said you were in loss prevention? Were these citizens arrests? Or did you simply detain them until the police arrived and actually arrested them?

    This really is a moot point since we're law-abiding citizens who don't shoplift, and it's indignant to be assumed as one.

    This just isn't a personal liberty issue, it's common sense so grow up.
    Once money has changed hands, a business transaction has taken place. The merchandise is now MINE. You may ASK to see my receipt, but outside of that, there is no LEGAL right for you to detain me unless you have reasonable suspicion (e.g. you've actually seen me conceal product). If you try to stop me, you will be facing a civil lawsuit.

    This has already been argued in court (by someone who actually didn't steal anything) and charges didn't even come close to sticking.

    http://www.michaelrighi.com/2007/09/20/success/



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